New hire bids

[Full Ins]

Jesus just apply if you want . If you don’t like the hiring process don’t.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Then, you’re missing what I’m saying, you can’t do any of that without modifying the collective agreement.
I’m also saying, if presented an option to get hired sooner by “saying” any base and “changing your mind” after getting hired are the reason why it won’t work. The only thing that would work on a smaller scale is saying all positions in this course are for a single base, the problem becomes if the company only needs 5 YVR RJ spots filled and 5 YYZ spots, they hire 10 pilots who are awarded their choice with the seniority draw, no way to guarantee a YVR spot to the 5 that indicated they wanted that without modifying the collective agreement.
What you mention above could work but again if a pilot wants to work at Jazz, they won’t restrict themselves to a single base and type, even those pilots have the collective right to change that once on property, which would affect the next new hire class.
The current system is well known and not new, AC does it and I’m willing to bet that every carrier with multi base and type governed by a collective agreement and seniority do it this way, if they don’t it because there is some sort of language allowing a restriction from bidding out of a new hire spot for a time period.
The company could perhaps make every course smaller and have single type and base for that course more frequently, make the next course a different base and type but keep in mind that adds costs to the training footprint, separate more frequent CIT and CRM classes or delaying new hires CRM to combine three classes would add costs.
I believe there is a restriction from bidding off your initial award type, not base though, so really the only option that doesn’t modify the agreement.
I’m coming around to your thinking though, the amount of hiring we are doing, they could in theory make it all 20 spots in this course RJ YYZ, next class 20 EMB YUL, etc. Again, I want to reiterate most if not all pilots get their preferred base before the end of initial training, so we are talking about a very small number of pilots who are not happy.
Let me know how Porter decides to deal with multi base needs, maybe Jazz can adapt it. As of right now, what happens there?
Everyone is offered E2 YYZ? How are they awarded a new base? Is it before the end of training or not until after?
I assume not every pilot joining Porter wants YYZ, are those pilots offered a choice before starting or again is every new hire YYZ initially?

I’m gonna try and chop up your response as best as I can.

1) collective agreements are absolutely the key here. Jazz and many airlines absolutely have language that would prevent this. So I certainly agree with your argument regarding this. Can it be changed? Sure. Maybe in 2035 at jazz. (Soft poke, I apologize)

2) if you “change your mind” after you get hired for a specific base and type, there should be a provision in the contract regarding how this is handled, but I would typically say, you should resign your position and then reapply for the one you want….. OR , wait for the semi annual base/type transfer.

3) yes, AC does the bid for base and equipment on day 1… also does not change the fact that it’s absurd. Also, added factoid, this applies to everyone BUT the ones who own a 737 rating, those guys get just given a 737 spot.

4) the cost of PIT is the same regarding all types. Nothing changes until you actually get into IPT or sim. Possibly hotel rooms and per diems. But hey, who doesn’t want to walk over to Jack astors at 9 pm after staring at a flight deck poster.

5) the restriction to bid off type is typically covered by a fleet lock, which I actually agree with. Base transfers should be very much kept separate.

6) porter isn’t hiring at other bases. The application is for YYZ . And again, specified as such
https://careers.flyporter.com/careers-home/jobs

So again, if you apply for this position, then you can assume you’ll be YYZ based . Bases outside are this position are awarded via seniority bid. This is probably cuz people who wanted other bases got in early. I assume if there are vacancies in the future; the job postings will reflect that. That’s how porter is dealing with it at the moment

Appreciate the response, I only meant the costs of CITs and CRM classes would go up because they would be more frequent under the scenario of smaller classes more frequently with only one base offered.
Under the current system, a bigger class every three weeks they run one big CIT and one big CRM and then all the pilots disperse to the respective type course. If you have smaller classes once a week, you would have weekly CIT and CRM classes, this adds costs, instructor resources and classroom time all cost money.
Maybe they could do like Porter but I see the benefit of having a choice, under your current system all pilots are aware they are being hired for YYZ but how is that better if you want YVR, you still need to get hired and bid for it with seniority.
The only difference I see here is, you know day one where, at Jazz you may get your preferred base right away or you may have to wait.
It’s also not a secret, pilots hired at Jazz know they will be at one of four bases and accept those terms knowing they have the option to switch.

Ya I agree with you. There is absolutely a cost associated with the way I’m thinking. Airlines definitely benefit from larger classes and sort out bases and types at a later stage. And frankly, in this day and age, most bases and types are available immediately. I guess every airline has its own hiring practices, I’m curious to see how it works a few years from now. It’s all strategy I guess and as pilots, we’re too focused on the glide path to see much further than that

[Me262]

Jesus just apply if you want . If you don’t like the hiring process don’t.

Like lightspeed I'm just curious what the 13 May class was
Whoever deals with the seniority list updates is not doing a very good job.

[rudder]

The part you’re missing, you still draw your seniority number from a hat and let’s say of those YYZ spots, 6 are for the Q and 2 are RJ, YVR is RJ. The pilots who were in the YVR pool end up drawing the lowest seniority numbers and two of the YYZ pool candidates don’t want the Q so they take the YVR RJ spots despite wanting YYZ. Seniority rules, you still end up with unhappy pilots who wanted YVR. Without some type of contract modification you cannot prevent this.
It’s a small percentage of pilots who would rather wait for the right base and give up seniority!

I don’t think you’re seeing it the way we’re trying to explain it. Forget the equipment bid.

The job postings are base/type specific, so applicants who want a certain base and type will send resumes for that position only. Then when the company needs that posting filled, they hire based on that pile only. The seniority draw still happens on day 1. Everyone who got hired for yyz stays in yyz, everyone that gets hired for yvr stays in yvr. Done.

And everyone knows what plane and base they got way before day 1.

Base transfers and equipment bid can still be run by the company…, say twice a year or something

Then, you’re missing what I’m saying, you can’t do any of that without modifying the collective agreement.
I’m also saying, if presented an option to get hired sooner by “saying” any base and “changing your mind” after getting hired are the reason why it won’t work. The only thing that would work on a smaller scale is saying all positions in this course are for a single base, the problem becomes if the company only needs 5 YVR RJ spots filled and 5 YYZ spots, they hire 10 pilots who are awarded their choice with the seniority draw, no way to guarantee a YVR spot to the 5 that indicated they wanted that without modifying the collective agreement.
What you mention above could work but again if a pilot wants to work at Jazz, they won’t restrict themselves to a single base and type, even those pilots have the collective right to change that once on property, which would affect the next new hire class.
The current system is well known and not new, AC does it and I’m willing to bet that every carrier with multi base and type governed by a collective agreement and seniority do it this way, if they don’t it because there is some sort of language allowing a restriction from bidding out of a new hire spot for a time period.
The company could perhaps make every course smaller and have single type and base for that course more frequently, make the next course a different base and type but keep in mind that adds costs to the training footprint, separate more frequent CIT and CRM classes or delaying new hires CRM to combine three classes would add costs.
I believe there is a restriction from bidding off your initial award type, not base though, so really the only option that doesn’t modify the agreement.
I’m coming around to your thinking though, the amount of hiring we are doing, they could in theory make it all 20 spots in this course RJ YYZ, next class 20 EMB YUL, etc. Again, I want to reiterate most if not all pilots get their preferred base before the end of initial training, so we are talking about a very small number of pilots who are not happy.
Let me know how Porter decides to deal with multi base needs, maybe Jazz can adapt it. As of right now, what happens there?
Everyone is offered E2 YYZ? How are they awarded a new base? Is it before the end of training or not until after?
I assume not every pilot joining Porter wants YYZ, are those pilots offered a choice before starting or again is every new hire YYZ initially?

Just like DEC - the Jazz CBA (Section 5) is not built for these kind of things (tailored hiring).

“Quid pro quo Dr. Lecter. Quid pro quo” (translated: dis-fer-dat).

[CaptDukeNukem]

I don’t think you’re seeing it the way we’re trying to explain it. Forget the equipment bid.

The job postings are base/type specific, so applicants who want a certain base and type will send resumes for that position only. Then when the company needs that posting filled, they hire based on that pile only. The seniority draw still happens on day 1. Everyone who got hired for yyz stays in yyz, everyone that gets hired for yvr stays in yvr. Done.

And everyone knows what plane and base they got way before day 1.

Base transfers and equipment bid can still be run by the company…, say twice a year or something

Then, you’re missing what I’m saying, you can’t do any of that without modifying the collective agreement.
I’m also saying, if presented an option to get hired sooner by “saying” any base and “changing your mind” after getting hired are the reason why it won’t work. The only thing that would work on a smaller scale is saying all positions in this course are for a single base, the problem becomes if the company only needs 5 YVR RJ spots filled and 5 YYZ spots, they hire 10 pilots who are awarded their choice with the seniority draw, no way to guarantee a YVR spot to the 5 that indicated they wanted that without modifying the collective agreement.
What you mention above could work but again if a pilot wants to work at Jazz, they won’t restrict themselves to a single base and type, even those pilots have the collective right to change that once on property, which would affect the next new hire class.
The current system is well known and not new, AC does it and I’m willing to bet that every carrier with multi base and type governed by a collective agreement and seniority do it this way, if they don’t it because there is some sort of language allowing a restriction from bidding out of a new hire spot for a time period.
The company could perhaps make every course smaller and have single type and base for that course more frequently, make the next course a different base and type but keep in mind that adds costs to the training footprint, separate more frequent CIT and CRM classes or delaying new hires CRM to combine three classes would add costs.
I believe there is a restriction from bidding off your initial award type, not base though, so really the only option that doesn’t modify the agreement.
I’m coming around to your thinking though, the amount of hiring we are doing, they could in theory make it all 20 spots in this course RJ YYZ, next class 20 EMB YUL, etc. Again, I want to reiterate most if not all pilots get their preferred base before the end of initial training, so we are talking about a very small number of pilots who are not happy.
Let me know how Porter decides to deal with multi base needs, maybe Jazz can adapt it. As of right now, what happens there?
Everyone is offered E2 YYZ? How are they awarded a new base? Is it before the end of training or not until after?
I assume not every pilot joining Porter wants YYZ, are those pilots offered a choice before starting or again is every new hire YYZ initially?

Just like DEC - the Jazz CBA (Section 5) is not built for these kind of things (tailored hiring).

“Quid pro quo Dr. Lecter. Quid pro quo” (translated: dis-fer-dat).

It rubs the lotion on the skin, or it gets the hose again.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Jesus just apply if you want . If you don’t like the hiring process don’t.

Like lightspeed I'm just curious what the 13 May class was
Whoever deals with the seniority list updates is not doing a very good job.

I’ll tell you right now the hiring classes for the next 6 months.

Yyz FO- equipement, who cares, can’t afford it anyway.
YYC fo - probably gonna be forced base transfer to yyz
Yvr - cool…. RJ. I can climb grouse mountain on my days off
YUL - Bonjour, À quelle distance se trouve St Hubert ?

[BEECH02]

What’s the current backlog in the hiring pool? Looking to see how long will it take when they start hiring again.

[cdnavater]

I’m gonna try and chop up your response as best as I can.

1) collective agreements are absolutely the key here. Jazz and many airlines absolutely have language that would prevent this. So I certainly agree with your argument regarding this. Can it be changed? Sure. Maybe in 2035 at jazz. (Soft poke, I apologize)

2) if you “change your mind” after you get hired for a specific base and type, there should be a provision in the contract regarding how this is handled, but I would typically say, you should resign your position and then reapply for the one you want….. OR , wait for the semi annual base/type transfer.

3) yes, AC does the bid for base and equipment on day 1… also does not change the fact that it’s absurd. Also, added factoid, this applies to everyone BUT the ones who own a 737 rating, those guys get just given a 737 spot.

4) the cost of PIT is the same regarding all types. Nothing changes until you actually get into IPT or sim. Possibly hotel rooms and per diems. But hey, who doesn’t want to walk over to Jack astors at 9 pm after staring at a flight deck poster.

5) the restriction to bid off type is typically covered by a fleet lock, which I actually agree with. Base transfers should be very much kept separate.

6) porter isn’t hiring at other bases. The application is for YYZ . And again, specified as such
https://careers.flyporter.com/careers-home/jobs

So again, if you apply for this position, then you can assume you’ll be YYZ based . Bases outside are this position are awarded via seniority bid. This is probably cuz people who wanted other bases got in early. I assume if there are vacancies in the future; the job postings will reflect that. That’s how porter is dealing with it at the moment

Appreciate the response, I only meant the costs of CITs and CRM classes would go up because they would be more frequent under the scenario of smaller classes more frequently with only one base offered.
Under the current system, a bigger class every three weeks they run one big CIT and one big CRM and then all the pilots disperse to the respective type course. If you have smaller classes once a week, you would have weekly CIT and CRM classes, this adds costs, instructor resources and classroom time all cost money.
Maybe they could do like Porter but I see the benefit of having a choice, under your current system all pilots are aware they are being hired for YYZ but how is that better if you want YVR, you still need to get hired and bid for it with seniority.
The only difference I see here is, you know day one where, at Jazz you may get your preferred base right away or you may have to wait.
It’s also not a secret, pilots hired at Jazz know they will be at one of four bases and accept those terms knowing they have the option to switch.

Ya I agree with you. There is absolutely a cost associated with the way I’m thinking. Airlines definitely benefit from larger classes and sort out bases and types at a later stage. And frankly, in this day and age, most bases and types are available immediately. I guess every airline has its own hiring practices, I’m curious to see how it works a few years from now. It’s all strategy I guess and as pilots, we’re too focused on the glide path to see much further than that

They must be following you on Avcan, Jazz is taking applications for DEC Captains, Q400 15 YUL spots available and 15 spots for Q YYZ.
Closing date Aug 3

[CaptDukeNukem]

Appreciate the response, I only meant the costs of CITs and CRM classes would go up because they would be more frequent under the scenario of smaller classes more frequently with only one base offered.
Under the current system, a bigger class every three weeks they run one big CIT and one big CRM and then all the pilots disperse to the respective type course. If you have smaller classes once a week, you would have weekly CIT and CRM classes, this adds costs, instructor resources and classroom time all cost money.
Maybe they could do like Porter but I see the benefit of having a choice, under your current system all pilots are aware they are being hired for YYZ but how is that better if you want YVR, you still need to get hired and bid for it with seniority.
The only difference I see here is, you know day one where, at Jazz you may get your preferred base right away or you may have to wait.
It’s also not a secret, pilots hired at Jazz know they will be at one of four bases and accept those terms knowing they have the option to switch.

Ya I agree with you. There is absolutely a cost associated with the way I’m thinking. Airlines definitely benefit from larger classes and sort out bases and types at a later stage. And frankly, in this day and age, most bases and types are available immediately. I guess every airline has its own hiring practices, I’m curious to see how it works a few years from now. It’s all strategy I guess and as pilots, we’re too focused on the glide path to see much further than that

They must be following you on Avcan, Jazz is taking applications for DEC Captains, Q400 15 YUL spots available and 15 spots for Q YYZ.
Closing date Aug 3

Wow. lol. Didn’t expect that.

You know what? I think this is great. Good on jazz. I’m all for this. Frankly, I’m shocked lol.

[cdnavater]

Ya I agree with you. There is absolutely a cost associated with the way I’m thinking. Airlines definitely benefit from larger classes and sort out bases and types at a later stage. And frankly, in this day and age, most bases and types are available immediately. I guess every airline has its own hiring practices, I’m curious to see how it works a few years from now. It’s all strategy I guess and as pilots, we’re too focused on the glide path to see much further than that

They must be following you on Avcan, Jazz is taking applications for DEC Captains, Q400 15 YUL spots available and 15 spots for Q YYZ.
Closing date Aug 3

Wow. lol. Didn’t expect that.

You know what? I think this is great. Good on jazz. I’m all for this. Frankly, I’m shocked lol.

Yep, I was surprised but it’s a good first step, the other recruitment link mentions all four bases, so status quo there.

[CaptDukeNukem]

They must be following you on Avcan, Jazz is taking applications for DEC Captains, Q400 15 YUL spots available and 15 spots for Q YYZ.
Closing date Aug 3

Wow. lol. Didn’t expect that.

You know what? I think this is great. Good on jazz. I’m all for this. Frankly, I’m shocked lol.

Yep, I was surprised but it’s a good first step, the other recruitment link mentions all four bases, so status quo there.

I think it’s great. Knowing at the very least what city you’re in is a massive step for a industry that takes baby steps. In my opinion, this will attract more pilots to jazz. Great move.

[Me262]

Jazz now has hiring posts for each of the 4 bases individually for FOs as well. How is this going to work? Or they are just going to pool all together and keep the status quo?

[rudder]

Jazz now has hiring posts for each of the 4 bases individually for FOs as well. How is this going to work? Or they are just going to pool all together and keep the status quo?

Just tell them “I am applying for the position that you posted at Base X”.

If they tell you they cannot guarantee the Base, just move on.

[yowflyer23]

Jazz now has hiring posts for each of the 4 bases individually for FOs as well. How is this going to work? Or they are just going to pool all together and keep the status quo?

It’s been like that since at least August last year. They still don’t guarantee you a base. It’s written in the first paragraph of the job post “Please note: Pilot job postings for all locations feed into our common ground school recruitment. Bases are assigned on the second day of Jazz ground school. Thus, you only need to apply to one First Officer position, regardless of location, to join our recruitment process.”

[Nick678]

I also just got that flood of job postings, why are they still allowed to advertise flow to AC? Didn’t the union ask them to
Stop and they agreed?

[cdnavater]

I also just got that flood of job postings, why are they still allowed to advertise flow to AC? Didn’t the union ask them to
Stop and they agreed?

I’m guessing after the MOS was signed with the new 30% flow, it was allowed.

[Nick678]

[quote=Nick678 post_id=<a href="tel:1313204">1313204</a> time=<a href="tel:1720027275">1720027275</a> user_id=86414]
I also just got that flood of job postings, why are they still allowed to advertise flow to AC? Didn’t the union ask them to
Stop and they agreed?

I’m guessing after the MOS was signed with the new 30% flow, it was allowed.
[/quote]

Completely broken flow agreement with no fix and the union agreed to this?

[Me262]

Lot's of sidetracking. Let's get back to business

7th Oct Class

Q400 YYC - 1
E175 YYZ - 2
J900 YVR - 4
J900 YUL - 1

[rudder]

Lot's of sidetracking. Let's get back to business

7th Oct Class

Q400 YYC - 1
E175 YYZ - 2
J900 YVR - 4
J900 YUL - 1

Nice. 8 pilots in a new-hire class.

What does that tell you about Jazz?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Two of them are getting typed to come to porter?

[hithere]

They were all Cygnet grads

[cygair]

Lot's of sidetracking. Let's get back to business

7th Oct Class

Q400 YYC - 1
E175 YYZ - 2
J900 YVR - 4
J900 YUL - 1

Does anyone know the TT and previous experiences with those new aircraft? Also, what is the average wait time for the pool?

[KatanaKiteFlyer]

Lot's of sidetracking. Let's get back to business

7th Oct Class

Q400 YYC - 1
E175 YYZ - 2
J900 YVR - 4
J900 YUL - 1

Does anyone know the TT and previous experiences with those new aircraft? Also, what is the average wait time for the pool?

I’ve been swimming since June (Flight instructor, ~900-1000ish TT), was told maybe April at the earliest.

[ghost-account]

Lot's of sidetracking. Let's get back to business

7th Oct Class

Q400 YYC - 1
E175 YYZ - 2
J900 YVR - 4
J900 YUL - 1

Does anyone know the TT and previous experiences with those new aircraft? Also, what is the average wait time for the pool?

I’ve been swimming since June (Flight instructor, ~900-1000ish TT), was told maybe April at the earliest.

Well, aside from those cygnet grads, there hasn't been any hiring since June. Seems like there's going to be a new hire class in February (?). I've seen posts on here saying it should be 20, but I can't verify that. I imagine they've accrued some decently experienced candidates (by today's standards) that are waiting for a call in the last 6 months, so only HR knows what the top experience they have waiting to be called is or what that timeline will look like. It's hard to project the trend when the trend of the last 6 months has essentially been 0.

Remember, Jazz doesn't have an FO shortage. They are going to be looking to hire the most "upgrade ready" candidates. So I assume that will be the highest TTs in there, anything else would just be speculation.

[cdnavater]

Does anyone know the TT and previous experiences with those new aircraft? Also, what is the average wait time for the pool?

I’ve been swimming since June (Flight instructor, ~900-1000ish TT), was told maybe April at the earliest.

Well, aside from those cygnet grads, there hasn't been any hiring since June. Seems like there's going to be a new hire class in February (?). I've seen posts on here saying it should be 20, but I can't verify that. I imagine they've accrued some decently experienced candidates (by today's standards) that are waiting for a call in the last 6 months, so only HR knows what the top experience they have waiting to be called is or what that timeline will look like. It's hard to project the trend when the trend of the last 6 months has essentially been 0.

Remember, Jazz doesn't have an FO shortage. They are going to be looking to hire the most "upgrade ready" candidates. So I assume that will be the highest TTs in there, anything else would just be speculation.

Not true about no new hires, I just looked back and there have been at least one new hire class in July, Aug and Sep, the Cygnet class was Oct