Tentative Agreement 2

[cdnavater]

This won’t be the last message from the company. It’s fear mongering 101.

Some sign 17 year contracts with awesome scope clauses and flow contracts that get blatently violated, some agree to continuous duty shifts to cranbrook…. Hell, even some green circles pilots would watch their crew walk to the non reclineable seat.

But hey, all for one!!!!

Duke, you are certainly bitter about stuff that we had no control over. For example, you worked at SR, can I assume you were not entitled to an upgrade for DH as C4?
Jazz pilots do not control the AC pass travel and company travel policy, however we had guaranteed upgrade to J I. Our collective agreement when they arbitrarily changed it, we were grandfathered in because again it was in our collective, however wording is everything dealing with these fucktards. It said, subject to AC policy, so you know, they changed the policy.
Also, why I can empathize with Encore pilots is because ScabRegional and GGN were happy to undercut us into oblivion, so pardon me if I don’t give a flying fart about what some ex SR pilots thinks about our contract!

No, we never got upgraded. There was empty seats constantly. The agents never moved us up. Even the FAs didn’t, even in uniform cuz “they weren’t allowed to” or “weight and balance”

ScabRegional was the best thing that happened to me. Didn’t go there for the wages or to screw over jazz pilots,

But I’ve seen jazz pilots screw over jazz pilots. So there’s that. Don’t care what you say, as I’m sure you think the same about me. I’m just trying to educate the new jazz pilots as to what is a green circle

I’d like to be educated on what green circle is.
Maybe you’re too young and weren’t in the business when all this transpired.
The contract that originally included green circle pilots in the contract was presented as a do or die contract, much like Encore is facing. There literally would be no pilots hired after that contract if it failed, so zero non green circle pilots affected.
All new and future flying would have gone to SR and GGN after that date and we were told we would be reduced to the bare minimum allowed in the CPA. Would they have, who knows but we were dealing with a CEO who had a history of proving his point which was why SR existed in the first place. I had zero reason to not believe the threat was real.
So, to me green circle means I get to retire at a company that I had invested many years at, that, I can’t and won’t apologize for, unless you were in my(our) position, you couldn’t possibly understand.
Again, my empathy for the Encore pilots with the difficult decision ahead of them.
If the threat is a CEO who has said he will shut the doors(extended strike/lockout), the end result of a shuttered Encore is zero flow, I wouldn’t wish this scenario on any pilot.

[JBI]

I want to agree with this post, but I find it difficult, at least for the entirety of it. Of course it’s at the vote of the pilots, but this whole game between lockout ands strike notices and news articles becomes a stupid game. “We weren’t gonna come to work!!!!
- THATS FINE. The doors are locked anyway!!!!”

It’s at best a game of chicken, or first one to blink.

It’s childish, my kids are amazing at doing this to me in order to get some leftover Halloween candy that they know I stashed away.

We should hire pre-teens to run our unions…. They don’t f-ing blink.

haha I don't necessarily disagree. For mainline airlines, I'd agree that it is more like a game of chicken. I was proud of the way the WJ MEC approached it and am generally quite happy with the WJ contract. Some weren't - fair enough.

With Encore though, it's different. In my opinion the company has likely made contingency plans so that a lot of the negative impacts of an Encore strike would be mitigated. My general feeling is that the company can hold out much longer. That part's my opinion though, so fair if you disagree. I will say though, it's a lot easier to be say it's a bluff when have nothing to lose.

JBI,
I respect your opinion and it really seems like you’ve been around long enough to see things, however I don’t know how else to interpret this,
“If this TA fails, we as a pilot group, must be prepared to accept the unintended ramifications of that outcome, and what that means for both our individual careers and the careers of our colleagues”

Appreciate the comment. I honestly don't know what the company will do. I think if anything they'd let Encore die a slow death. Try and get some routes covered, charter out others. Cancel some unprofitable routes and blame the pilots. Tough to say exactly. At the same time, I could see them trying to wait out pilots. Give it a few months, some may have moved on, some may not have. After a whole summer of no income, maybe pilots are willing to take a lot less for the short term.

Ultimately though, I'd think that strike or lock-out would have a pretty negative impact on many of the Encore pilots, especially the senior ones who are hoping to Flow next year.

Who knows though, the best thing that happened to many of my colleagues 20 years ago was having the northern airline we were working for go out of business. They were forced to find different/better jobs.

[Timetoflyagain]

…and Porter is still offering Q400 DEC’s a $25000 signing bonus and YOS payscale. So If you want to stay in the GTA…or if out west, commute until the Q4 base out west is announced…and no, I don’t know when that’ll happen..but if WJE shuts down as threatened, it’ll be a lot sooner I’d bet.

[careerpilot?]

Can someone explain the flow problem for me?

If an Encore pilot meets hiring criteria for mainline, are they not allowed to apply to mainline? Or is it a starting at the bottom / seniority / pay loss issue if they choose to go that route, rather than rely on flow? Why can’t they just quit at encore and apply to mainline?

[C-GGGQ]

Encore pilots cannot apply to mainline AFAIK. Just like Jazz cannot apply under the “non ac express” portal.

[boeingboy]

Can someone explain the flow problem for me?

If an Encore pilot meets hiring criteria for mainline, are they not allowed to apply to mainline? Or is it a starting at the bottom / seniority / pay loss issue if they choose to go that route, rather than rely on flow? Why can’t they just quit at encore and apply to mainline?

The stagnant situation at mainline coupled with the 500-600 pilots coming from SWG in the next year doesn't leave a lot of openings. Even if there was Westjet are only going to allow flow if it doesn't leave Encore short of pilots. This is the issue facing them right now - the extremely long wait that no-one can predict.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Can someone explain the flow problem for me?

If an Encore pilot meets hiring criteria for mainline, are they not allowed to apply to mainline? Or is it a starting at the bottom / seniority / pay loss issue if they choose to go that route, rather than rely on flow? Why can’t they just quit at encore and apply to mainline?

Encore pilots who went to Lynx had been hired back, but had their job offers recalled once management got wind. It shows that WestJet considers you to be dead to them once you leave.

[fish4life]

Can someone explain the flow problem for me?

If an Encore pilot meets hiring criteria for mainline, are they not allowed to apply to mainline? Or is it a starting at the bottom / seniority / pay loss issue if they choose to go that route, rather than rely on flow? Why can’t they just quit at encore and apply to mainline?

Encore pilots who went to Lynx had been hired back, but had their job offers recalled once management got wind. It shows that WestJet considers you to be dead to them once you leave.

Could it have been the way they left ? I’ve heard of people essentially giving the middle finger on the way out to jobs by either calling in sick most of the last days or leaving without giving 2 weeks etc.

[Chaxterium]

Encore pilots who went to Lynx had been hired back, but had their job offers recalled once management got wind.

Sorry. Please excuse my ignorance but got wind of what?

[careerpilot?]

Encore pilots cannot apply to mainline AFAIK. Just like Jazz cannot apply under the “non ac express” portal.

Ack, thx. I figured it was something like this.

I find that strange though. On the one hand I keep hearing they can't get a good flow agreement because they are two separate companies so any agreements at Encore aren't binding on mainline. Yet they seem to be able to agree that Mainline will not accept applications from Encore pilots...

[digits_]

Encore pilots cannot apply to mainline AFAIK. Just like Jazz cannot apply under the “non ac express” portal.

Ack, thx. I figured it was something like this.

I find that strange though. On the one hand I keep hearing they can't get a good flow agreement because they are two separate companies so any agreements at Encore aren't binding on mainline. Yet they seem to be able to agree that Mainline will not accept applications from Encore pilots...

It makes sense if you look at who benefits from both those statements

[Transition9er2]

I’m sorry, the letter from the Union is embarrassing and should never have been allowed to be sent out. I have no idea how that got approved from ALPA lawyers. Feels like the MEC got scolded by management and are scared to keep negotiating.

The company is playing hard ball here, this is business. The unfortunate thing is pilots are pilots. If you think for a second the company will shut Encore down you are dreaming.

Take the emotion out of this, step back and look at the table rationally.

WestJet is in the middle of integrating Sunwing into the fold and are also rolling swoop back into mainline. They’re planning rapid expansion to seize the dropped ball by AC and they’ve got a hard on realizing the possibilities that are in front of them. They’re cutting the contract with PASCO and moving that flying to you guys. Everything is coming together perfectly in their eyes.

Except one thing. Encore gave WestJet the middle finger when they voted the deal down. Now the company is pissed because you guys are “getting in the way” of rapid expansion and profits, so naturally the company comes back to the table and makes a pretty significant raise to the chip count.

They want you guys to fold like cheap tents… they’re counting on it!!

Lots of talk about what the Americans have down south and how we deserve the same. The Americans have it BETTER because they aren’t afraid to stand up and punch the bully back!! They get smacked around a little bit by the company, they smack back!!

You want to be respected as pilots and respected in this industry?? Start SAYING NO. Otherwise the company knows all they have to do is rough you up a little and everyone goes crying home.

If they want to shut Encore down because of a rejected offer, let them! See how long it takes before they back out of that decision. Another airline will be racing in to fill that gap before the ink is even dry! There is simply WAY TOO MUCH demand and they know it.

The industry is a whole different animal to what it was 25 years ago. But management is banking on the fact pilots can still be smacked around and fall back inline like they always have.

That’s my rant… take it however you want. But this is a moment in our collective history where we can finally punch the bully in the nose and demand they stop pushing us around.

That email from the MEC should never have been sent out. It reeks of submission and defeatism. There’s a proper way to send that message out to the membership so it carries a stronger tone. That steaming pile of garbage was basically written by the company, because your MEC has given up. Your MEC should be ashamed of themselves!

Like I said. Step back from the table, take the emotion out of it and look at it logically. How does WJ function without Encore?

Good luck to all!

[thepoors]

I’m sorry, the letter from the Union is embarrassing and should never have been allowed to be sent out. I have no idea how that got approved from ALPA lawyers. Feels like the MEC got scolded by management and are scared to keep negotiating.

The company is playing hard ball here, this is business. The unfortunate thing is pilots are pilots. If you think for a second the company will shut Encore down you are dreaming.

Take the emotion out of this, step back and look at the table rationally.

WestJet is in the middle of integrating Sunwing into the fold and are also rolling swoop back into mainline. They’re planning rapid expansion to seize the dropped ball by AC and they’ve got a hard on realizing the possibilities that are in front of them. They’re cutting the contract with PASCO and moving that flying to you guys. Everything is coming together perfectly in their eyes.

Except one thing. Encore gave WestJet the middle finger when they voted the deal down. Now the company is pissed because you guys are “getting in the way” of rapid expansion and profits, so naturally the company comes back to the table and makes a pretty significant raise to the chip count.

They want you guys to fold like cheap tents… they’re counting on it!!

Lots of talk about what the Americans have down south and how we deserve the same. The Americans have it BETTER because they aren’t afraid to stand up and punch the bully back!! They get smacked around a little bit by the company, they smack back!!

You want to be respected as pilots and respected in this industry?? Start SAYING NO. Otherwise the company knows all they have to do is rough you up a little and everyone goes crying home.

If they want to shut Encore down because of a rejected offer, let them! See how long it takes before they back out of that decision. Another airline will be racing in to fill that gap before the ink is even dry! There is simply WAY TOO MUCH demand and they know it.

The industry is a whole different animal to what it was 25 years ago. But management is banking on the fact pilots can still be smacked around and fall back inline like they always have.

That’s my rant… take it however you want. But this is a moment in our collective history where we can finally punch the bully in the nose and demand they stop pushing us around.

That email from the MEC should never have been sent out. It reeks of submission and defeatism. There’s a proper way to send that message out to the membership so it carries a stronger tone. That steaming pile of garbage was basically written by the company, because your MEC has given up. Your MEC should be ashamed of themselves!

Like I said. Step back from the table, take the emotion out of it and look at it logically. How does WJ function without Encore?

Good luck to all!

[C-GGGQ]

When is the vote?

[GetAGripen]

When is the vote?

June 3rd-14th.

[GetAGripen]

TA2 has passed to become Encore's 2nd Collective Agreement. 79% voted yes. 91% participation.

[digits_]

TA2 has passed to become Encore's 2nd Collective Agreement. 79% voted yes. 91% participation.

Thank you for the update. That's surprising... To an outsider there didn't seem to be much improvement between TA1 and TA2.

[ShillBill]

5 yrs deal during a time of labor shortages & union victories and that isn't taking into account specific pilot related supply issues

Ouch...you reap what you sow

[digits_]

5 yrs deal during a time of labor shortages & union victories and that isn't taking into account specific pilot related supply issues

Ouch...you reap what you sow

I'm sure plenty of expired pilots will now be flooding Encore's HR department hoping to get in to enjoy this industry leading remuneration

[Donald]

I guess the threat of losing their jobs worked.

[goingnowherefast]

Give it a few years, WJE management will come crawling back to the union begging for raises. Pilots are gonna cast the final vote with their feet.

Yes votes are in one of two camps.
1. Threatened with shutting down the airline, so job security while waiting for Transat, AC or WJA to call.
2. Believes management can't afford more, so sees the writing on the wall with WJE being left behind in the shortage. Doesn't matter what the contract says, if the operation is unprofitable, it's getting shut down. 5 year deal or not. Might as well bail to Porter or Jazz so they're not the last ones left.