Agreement in principle reached.

[Me262]

(the chart)

One thing to take note of is that the MEC has really hammered in the point that Jazz's MMG is technically 75 hours as well, though I don't know what % of pilots are getting that or the quoted 82.5 on average. I haven't seen their contract posted.

It's actually 77.5. And yes, some FO's have been getting 77.5 for June and July now. So no, Jazz MMG is not 82.5, but 77.5 if you want to make a good comparison, making Jazz now the lowest paying out of Porter and Encore. Hiring 20 FO's every 3 weeks has increased the pool at a steady rate.

[cdnavater]

(the chart)

One thing to take note of is that the MEC has really hammered in the point that Jazz's MMG is technically 75 hours as well, though I don't know what % of pilots are getting that or the quoted 82.5 on average. I haven't seen their contract posted.

It's actually 77.5. And yes, some FO's have been getting 77.5 for June and July now. So no, Jazz MMG is not 82.5, but 77.5 if you want to make a good comparison, making Jazz now the lowest paying out of Porter and Encore. Hiring 20 FO's every 3 weeks has increased the pool at a steady rate.

As usual Me262 is not being accurate, yes FOs are blocked to 77.5 for July, while Captains are blocked again to 87.5.
77.5 is the MMG per the contract but as I’ve said before, over the last 20 years I’ve not been blocked less than 82.5 average on an annual basis.
The company has the ability to increase the block to 87.5 7 times this year and then after that they can do this 3 times per year going forward 2025 on, when they do this the pilot roster affected are also given an additional 2 hours in the time bank. So far this year I’ll have 8 hours from this in my time bank because guess what, Captains have been blocked to 87.5 4 times.
The reason FOs are 77.5 is because we have more FOs than Captains, at the end of the year I would be completely shocked if all pilots don’t average 82.5 but until we get more Captains on line FOs will be blocked lower.

[Me262]

One thing to take note of is that the MEC has really hammered in the point that Jazz's MMG is technically 75 hours as well, though I don't know what % of pilots are getting that or the quoted 82.5 on average. I haven't seen their contract posted.

It's actually 77.5. And yes, some FO's have been getting 77.5 for June and July now. So no, Jazz MMG is not 82.5, but 77.5 if you want to make a good comparison, making Jazz now the lowest paying out of Porter and Encore. Hiring 20 FO's every 3 weeks has increased the pool at a steady rate.

As usual Me262 is not being accurate, yes FOs are blocked to 77.5 for July, while Captains are blocked again to 87.5.
77.5 is the MMG per the contract but as I’ve said before, over the last 20 years I’ve not been blocked less than 82.5 average on an annual basis.
The company has the ability to increase the block to 87.5 7 times this year and then after that they can do this 3 times per year going forward 2025 on, when they do this the pilot roster affected are also given an additional 2 hours in the time bank. So far this year I’ll have 8 hours from this in my time bank because guess what, Captains have been blocked to 87.5 4 times.
The reason FOs are 77.5 is because we have more FOs than Captains, at the end of the year I would be completely shocked if all pilots don’t average 82.5 but until we get more Captains on line FOs will be blocked lower.

How is it not accurate? FO's will only get 77.5 MMG for these 2 months and will get paid accordingly.

[cdnavater]

It's actually 77.5. And yes, some FO's have been getting 77.5 for June and July now. So no, Jazz MMG is not 82.5, but 77.5 if you want to make a good comparison, making Jazz now the lowest paying out of Porter and Encore. Hiring 20 FO's every 3 weeks has increased the pool at a steady rate.

As usual Me262 is not being accurate, yes FOs are blocked to 77.5 for July, while Captains are blocked again to 87.5.
77.5 is the MMG per the contract but as I’ve said before, over the last 20 years I’ve not been blocked less than 82.5 average on an annual basis.
The company has the ability to increase the block to 87.5 7 times this year and then after that they can do this 3 times per year going forward 2025 on, when they do this the pilot roster affected are also given an additional 2 hours in the time bank. So far this year I’ll have 8 hours from this in my time bank because guess what, Captains have been blocked to 87.5 4 times.
The reason FOs are 77.5 is because we have more FOs than Captains, at the end of the year I would be completely shocked if all pilots don’t average 82.5 but until we get more Captains on line FOs will be blocked lower.

How is it not accurate? FO's will only get 77.5 MMG for these 2 months and will get paid accordingly.

Ok, how about this, it’s inaccurate because it only includes the part that fits your narrative.
I’ve been at Jazz a very long time and if at the end of the year, every roster hasn’t averaged 82.5/mth for the year, it will be the first time that I’ve seen that.
The 77.5 MMG is for when the airline doesn’t have enough work for the pilots, Jazz problem is they don’t have enough Captains for the balance of the rosters.
If you want to use the minimum, go ahead but reality is not that, I wouldn’t use the minimum for Porter either, as everyone is blocked much higher

[C-GGGQ]

It still doesn’t change your guaranteed salary. Thats the only way to compare contracts.

[flyingpilot]

Any guesses as to how many are going to vote yes to this TA?

[C-GGGQ]

Honestly I hope the ame vote smartens the pilot group up and they come together to get a contract they deserve

[Dronepiper]

When does the new vote close?

[dontcallmeshirley]

When does the new vote close?

June 14

[JBI]

If you want to use the minimum, go ahead but reality is not that, I wouldn’t use the minimum for Porter either, as everyone is blocked much higher

That's the challenge with trying to compare pay across airlines on charts like the one in this thread. From my understanding, Encore has the same Captain/FO challenge as Jazz in that Captains are consistently scheduled well above MMG whereas FOs are well below MMG. What's the best metric to use? Well, kind of depends.

Back when the WJ Contract was being debated, it was mentioned that some US carriers MMGs are actually really low (like 55 hours a month or similar). The vast majority of pilots were consistently being scheduled for well more than that each month, but the actual "guaranteed" monthly pay was much lower. In that discussion, it was sad as to how many posters on here didn't actually understand that there is a pretty big difference between MMG and blocking average! Many thought that a lower MMG automatically meant you're working less

[Me262]

As usual Me262 is not being accurate, yes FOs are blocked to 77.5 for July, while Captains are blocked again to 87.5.
77.5 is the MMG per the contract but as I’ve said before, over the last 20 years I’ve not been blocked less than 82.5 average on an annual basis.
The company has the ability to increase the block to 87.5 7 times this year and then after that they can do this 3 times per year going forward 2025 on, when they do this the pilot roster affected are also given an additional 2 hours in the time bank. So far this year I’ll have 8 hours from this in my time bank because guess what, Captains have been blocked to 87.5 4 times.
The reason FOs are 77.5 is because we have more FOs than Captains, at the end of the year I would be completely shocked if all pilots don’t average 82.5 but until we get more Captains on line FOs will be blocked lower.

How is it not accurate? FO's will only get 77.5 MMG for these 2 months and will get paid accordingly.

Ok, how about this, it’s inaccurate because it only includes the part that fits your narrative.
I’ve been at Jazz a very long time and if at the end of the year, every roster hasn’t averaged 82.5/mth for the year, it will be the first time that I’ve seen that.
The 77.5 MMG is for when the airline doesn’t have enough work for the pilots, Jazz problem is they don’t have enough Captains for the balance of the rosters.
If you want to use the minimum, go ahead but reality is not that, I wouldn’t use the minimum for Porter either, as everyone is blocked much higher

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. This is the first thing coming to mind when I read your post.

Are you going to guarantee that the shortage is just very short term and FO's will benefit of the "average" 82.5? The way I see it, the only way to fix the captain shortage is to pay more, and that's not in AC's books.

The only guarantee is the MMG as per the collective agreement, not what you think it will happen or how it was in the past. And for budgeting purposes in a world where everything costs more for less, MMG is the only way to go, not what it could be or what it might be.

All the other companies can fly more than their MMG too, but for comparison purposes, that chart needs to be modified for 77.5 MMG for Jazz, not 82.5.

So again, not sure where my inaccuracy is.

[twa22]

How is it not accurate? FO's will only get 77.5 MMG for these 2 months and will get paid accordingly.

Ok, how about this, it’s inaccurate because it only includes the part that fits your narrative.
I’ve been at Jazz a very long time and if at the end of the year, every roster hasn’t averaged 82.5/mth for the year, it will be the first time that I’ve seen that.
The 77.5 MMG is for when the airline doesn’t have enough work for the pilots, Jazz problem is they don’t have enough Captains for the balance of the rosters.
If you want to use the minimum, go ahead but reality is not that, I wouldn’t use the minimum for Porter either, as everyone is blocked much higher

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. This is the first thing coming to mind when I read your post.

Are you going to guarantee that the shortage is just very short term and FO's will benefit of the "average" 82.5? The way I see it, the only way to fix the captain shortage is to pay more, and that's not in AC's books.

The only guarantee is the MMG as per the collective agreement, not what you think it will happen or how it was in the past. And for budgeting purposes in a world where everything costs more for less, MMG is the only way to go, not what it could be or what it might be.

All the other companies can fly more than their MMG too, but for comparison purposes, that chart needs to be modified for 77.5 MMG for Jazz, not 82.5.

So again, not sure where my inaccuracy is.

I agree with this, but so many pilots tend to sell salaries based on what has historically been given... I don't care one bit what my average monthly block MIGHT be at the end of year. I care when I put pen to paper, what am I guaranteed to make at the end of year, period. Anything more then that should be viewed as extra income, and someone who is new to industry should have this explained to them... I too was told by many "I have never once been blocked at the MMG, so my salary is X and yours will be too"... That's cool, I'll budget my life based on what I'm guaranteed, you budget yours on an assumption. This is how so many people can get into trouble and over extended themselves.

[flyinhigh]

I agree with this, but so many pilots tend to sell salaries based on what has historically been given... I don't care one bit what my average monthly block MIGHT be at the end of year. I care when I put pen to paper, what am I guaranteed to make at the end of year, period. Anything more then that should be viewed as extra income, and someone who is new to industry should have this explained to them... I too was told by many "I have never once been blocked at the MMG, so my salary is X and yours will be too"... That's cool, I'll budget my life based on what I'm guaranteed, you budget yours on an assumption. This is how so many people can get into trouble and over extended themselves.

Exactly, just a perdiems are not income either. While a nice high perdiem is good, no bank will look at that when you want your car loan or house. Walking in and offering X on something when Z is not guaranteed is foolish.

[cdnavater]

Ok, how about this, it’s inaccurate because it only includes the part that fits your narrative.
I’ve been at Jazz a very long time and if at the end of the year, every roster hasn’t averaged 82.5/mth for the year, it will be the first time that I’ve seen that.
The 77.5 MMG is for when the airline doesn’t have enough work for the pilots, Jazz problem is they don’t have enough Captains for the balance of the rosters.
If you want to use the minimum, go ahead but reality is not that, I wouldn’t use the minimum for Porter either, as everyone is blocked much higher

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. This is the first thing coming to mind when I read your post.

Are you going to guarantee that the shortage is just very short term and FO's will benefit of the "average" 82.5? The way I see it, the only way to fix the captain shortage is to pay more, and that's not in AC's books.

The only guarantee is the MMG as per the collective agreement, not what you think it will happen or how it was in the past. And for budgeting purposes in a world where everything costs more for less, MMG is the only way to go, not what it could be or what it might be.

All the other companies can fly more than their MMG too, but for comparison purposes, that chart needs to be modified for 77.5 MMG for Jazz, not 82.5.

So again, not sure where my inaccuracy is.

I agree with this, but so many pilots tend to sell salaries based on what has historically been given... I don't care one bit what my average monthly block MIGHT be at the end of year. I care when I put pen to paper, what am I guaranteed to make at the end of year, period. Anything more then that should be viewed as extra income, and someone who is new to industry should have this explained to them... I too was told by many "I have never once been blocked at the MMG, so my salary is X and yours will be too"... That's cool, I'll budget my life based on what I'm guaranteed, you budget yours on an assumption. This is how so many people can get into trouble and over extended themselves.

I’m going on 20 years of data, not 20 months and certainly not 2 or 3 months.
What would you do working for one of those earlier mentioned US companies with a MMG of 55-60 credits, is that the salary you would give your bank for a mortgage? Would you tell your bank working for Jazz or Encore et al, that your salary is based on 77.5 or the actual salary based on your blocking average?
What you need to realize, companies will go for the lowest possible MMG they can get, the union will go for the highest during negotiations. The MMG is for when times are bad, the companies would rather keep more pilots on the payroll at the lower MMG instead of layoffs. The higher the guarantee, the more layoffs would be required which then forces the company to really evaluate the need for layoffs, meaning the prediction needs to be more long term or they carry the extra crew. If you give them a super low MMG, you’ll just have a bunch of part time pilots.
Now, as for the chart, I don’t look at the salary posted, I compare the YOS hourly pay to the same YOS at the other company, that’s really all that matters and in that respect Jazz is slightly behind until we hit the top scale.

[twa22]

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. This is the first thing coming to mind when I read your post.

Are you going to guarantee that the shortage is just very short term and FO's will benefit of the "average" 82.5? The way I see it, the only way to fix the captain shortage is to pay more, and that's not in AC's books.

The only guarantee is the MMG as per the collective agreement, not what you think it will happen or how it was in the past. And for budgeting purposes in a world where everything costs more for less, MMG is the only way to go, not what it could be or what it might be.

All the other companies can fly more than their MMG too, but for comparison purposes, that chart needs to be modified for 77.5 MMG for Jazz, not 82.5.

So again, not sure where my inaccuracy is.

I agree with this, but so many pilots tend to sell salaries based on what has historically been given... I don't care one bit what my average monthly block MIGHT be at the end of year. I care when I put pen to paper, what am I guaranteed to make at the end of year, period. Anything more then that should be viewed as extra income, and someone who is new to industry should have this explained to them... I too was told by many "I have never once been blocked at the MMG, so my salary is X and yours will be too"... That's cool, I'll budget my life based on what I'm guaranteed, you budget yours on an assumption. This is how so many people can get into trouble and over extended themselves.

I’m going on 20 years of data, not 20 months and certainly not 2 or 3 months.
What would you do working for one of those earlier mentioned US companies with a MMG of 55-60 credits, is that the salary you would give your bank for a mortgage? Would you tell your bank working for Jazz or Encore et al, that your salary is based on 77.5 or the actual salary based on your blocking average?
What you need to realize, companies will go for the lowest possible MMG they can get, the union will go for the highest during negotiations. The MMG is for when times are bad, the companies would rather keep more pilots on the payroll at the lower MMG instead of layoffs. The higher the guarantee, the more layoffs would be required which then forces the company to really evaluate the need for layoffs, meaning the prediction needs to be more long term or they carry the extra crew. If you give them a super low MMG, you’ll just have a bunch of part time pilots.
Now, as for the chart, I don’t look at the salary posted, I compare the YOS hourly pay to the same YOS at the other company, that’s really all that matters and in that respect Jazz is slightly behind until we hit the top scale.

That's great, I don't care how long you've been going on data for, what's written in the contract is what you are guaranteed, period, so yes, in the US, I would actually base my salary on their MMG off 55/60 hours, but guess what, if you've had a look, most US airlines are now 70 MMG or above, with a few between 60-70, and then it also doesn't really matter when their hourly is 1.5-2x to start with vs Canada, and not adjusted for currency conversion either...

You do you and base your income and life on a supposed average which has happened to work out, and I will base mine on what my minimum is, but please, please, do not give financial advice based on anecdotal historical data, even if that may have been the case, it is not correct and it will lead people into a false sense of security

[sarg]

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. This is the first thing coming to mind when I read your post.

Are you going to guarantee that the shortage is just very short term and FO's will benefit of the "average" 82.5? The way I see it, the only way to fix the captain shortage is to pay more, and that's not in AC's books.

The only guarantee is the MMG as per the collective agreement, not what you think it will happen or how it was in the past. And for budgeting purposes in a world where everything costs more for less, MMG is the only way to go, not what it could be or what it might be.

All the other companies can fly more than their MMG too, but for comparison purposes, that chart needs to be modified for 77.5 MMG for Jazz, not 82.5.

So again, not sure where my inaccuracy is.

I agree with this, but so many pilots tend to sell salaries based on what has historically been given... I don't care one bit what my average monthly block MIGHT be at the end of year. I care when I put pen to paper, what am I guaranteed to make at the end of year, period. Anything more then that should be viewed as extra income, and someone who is new to industry should have this explained to them... I too was told by many "I have never once been blocked at the MMG, so my salary is X and yours will be too"... That's cool, I'll budget my life based on what I'm guaranteed, you budget yours on an assumption. This is how so many people can get into trouble and over extended themselves.

I’m going on 20 years of data, not 20 months and certainly not 2 or 3 months.
What would you do working for one of those earlier mentioned US companies with a MMG of 55-60 credits, is that the salary you would give your bank for a mortgage? Would you tell your bank working for Jazz or Encore et al, that your salary is based on 77.5 or the actual salary based on your blocking average?
What you need to realize, companies will go for the lowest possible MMG they can get, the union will go for the highest during negotiations. The MMG is for when times are bad, the companies would rather keep more pilots on the payroll at the lower MMG instead of layoffs. The higher the guarantee, the more layoffs would be required which then forces the company to really evaluate the need for layoffs, meaning the prediction needs to be more long term or they carry the extra crew. If you give them a super low MMG, you’ll just have a bunch of part time pilots.
Now, as for the chart, I don’t look at the salary posted, I compare the YOS hourly pay to the same YOS at the other company, that’s really all that matters and in that respect Jazz is slightly behind until we hit the top scale.

This is exactly why people get themselves in financial basing their borrowing on wishful thinking.

[JustaCanadian]

Congrats on the contract that just passed.

[cdnavater]

I agree with this, but so many pilots tend to sell salaries based on what has historically been given... I don't care one bit what my average monthly block MIGHT be at the end of year. I care when I put pen to paper, what am I guaranteed to make at the end of year, period. Anything more then that should be viewed as extra income, and someone who is new to industry should have this explained to them... I too was told by many "I have never once been blocked at the MMG, so my salary is X and yours will be too"... That's cool, I'll budget my life based on what I'm guaranteed, you budget yours on an assumption. This is how so many people can get into trouble and over extended themselves.

I’m going on 20 years of data, not 20 months and certainly not 2 or 3 months.
What would you do working for one of those earlier mentioned US companies with a MMG of 55-60 credits, is that the salary you would give your bank for a mortgage? Would you tell your bank working for Jazz or Encore et al, that your salary is based on 77.5 or the actual salary based on your blocking average?
What you need to realize, companies will go for the lowest possible MMG they can get, the union will go for the highest during negotiations. The MMG is for when times are bad, the companies would rather keep more pilots on the payroll at the lower MMG instead of layoffs. The higher the guarantee, the more layoffs would be required which then forces the company to really evaluate the need for layoffs, meaning the prediction needs to be more long term or they carry the extra crew. If you give them a super low MMG, you’ll just have a bunch of part time pilots.
Now, as for the chart, I don’t look at the salary posted, I compare the YOS hourly pay to the same YOS at the other company, that’s really all that matters and in that respect Jazz is slightly behind until we hit the top scale.

This is exactly why people get themselves in financial basing their borrowing on wishful thinking.

I’m dong ok