Does ALPA expel pilot groups that lower the bar?

[FelixGustof]

Just watching from the sidelines on this Encore fiasco...

Does ALPA ever expel pilot groups for horrific results?

Best climate for gains in the history of aviation and we got pilots worried about capturing flying because the lowest paid aviators on the planet still aren't cheap enough?!

[Torontomaplelaughs]

ALPA just released their Economic & Financial analysis report on record profits in the airline industry compounded with a pilot shortage and here we are with marginal gains with a whopping 5 yrs deal.

It's astonishingly ridiculous how under performing this profession is doing in execution

Enjoy flying FULL PLANES this summer everyone at bare bones rates

The Shareholders appreciate it!

[aeronauticaldisaster]

The Shareholders...lol

They do appreciate a good deal on cheap pilots. Well done Encore!

[Core]

ALPA needs dues.
ALPA doesn't want to dole out strike pay.
ALPA is a business that relies on the revenue stream of employed pilots.
ALPA will absolutely put their own business first before truly pressing for the financial well-being of pilots.

Don't be naive, ALPA is not a charity organization and will never go the last mile, that's up to us as voters, despite what they'll coerce us to do. This isn't Sesame Street, we have to look out for ourselves.

[unionism101]

ALPA is good. The best damn pilot union by a long shot. Just take a look at the morons of ACPA or APA to see the difference

But also look at the gong show currently going on at FedEx or what United pilots went through to finally get a strong agreement

There are no guarantees because you're at ALPA. You need to be strong and have strong leaders. It is clear Encore had a shortage of both

AC pilots going to need to show the industry they are the leaders of this Industry to pave the way for the future. No excuses anymore

[‘Bob’]

Are you kidding?

Have you not seen the absolute garbage Canadian carriers under ALPA have gotten over the last decade?

Remember.. ALPA is the one setting (or settling for) the low bar expecting you to vote yes on it. They wouldn’t present it otherwise. The appetite for real labour action in this country is very low both with unions and membership.

You all say “hold the line” but we all know it’s a bluff. I hope that what I write stokes anger.. but I seriously doubt it will translate into real action.

[daedalusx]

Are you kidding?

Have you not seen the absolute garbage Canadian carriers under ALPA have gotten over the last decade?

Remember.. ALPA is the one setting (or settling for) the low bar expecting you to vote yes on it. They wouldn’t present it otherwise. The appetite for real labour action in this country is very low both with unions and membership.

You all say “hold the line” but we all know it’s a bluff. I hope that what I write stokes anger.. but I seriously doubt it will translate into real action.

Flair - ALPA - disgusting contract, even worst their latest LOU jesus christ
Jazz - ALPA - lol, lmao even.
Mainline WJ - ALPA - We demand the same as Alaska and Southwest and we're ready to strike over it, lol just kidding, just get rid of Swoop and Sunwing plz and thank you but watch out, we'll really really get you next time.
Encore - ALPA - Be happy that you're getting the same as Porter, a non-union shop better sign up on the dotted line or the company will get rid of you and your planes.
Let's not forget about Georgian.

Yeah, if I were management, I'd be quacking in my boots And now AC wants to one-up Westjet's "north American standard" bluff with "world standard" but you can already tell some already have their excuses lined up.

You guys should talk to some American pilots or browse their forums when it's time for job action. It's a different vibe to say the least.

[flyingcanuck]

you guys that shit on ALPA use it as an excuse to shift blame elsewhere. ALPA provides support, tools, and data, the rest is up to us. We can only blame ourselves.

[CaptDukeNukem]

you guys that shit on ALPA use it as an excuse to shift blame elsewhere. ALPA provides support, tools, and data, the rest is up to us. We can only blame ourselves.

I think that’s kinda the point of the last few posts… I may be wrong, but the way I read them is exactly what you said: we can only blame ourselves.

However, if unions have/offer the support, tools, data and pockets, why is it that the last 6 or so contracts have been advertised pre-strike date so amazingly, then at 11th hour signed to be mediocre. If there’s so much data and help, why are people getting offered garbage TAs

the next Canadian Alpa company to fight for a contract will call it : “first one to the moon”

[goingnowherefast]

Maybe with all the support, tools, data and pockets, the ALPA leader volunteers know exactly how hard they can push. A lot of what we see in the public is posturing. It pressures management and builds public support. It's not meant as a sneak peek at the contract. We interpret it as a contract sneek peek because we all desperately want to know. But, no, it's just posturing and playing the game with management and the public.

[cjp]

The gains, or lack thereof, are due to pilots on the respective MEC who were voted in and represent that specific pilot group. It has no bearing on ALPA's ability. At the end of the day, a gain is a gain for them...I guess.

I would imagine those pilots, who were voted onto the Encore MEC, have a lower confidence level in their ability and value with regards to compensation - and thus - should not have been on the MEC to begin with. ALPA just provides the respective union the guidance and tools to do their jobs. The represented pilot group that works for Encore is the one that needs to be strong - and they have shown they are not, likely due to the fact that working at Encore requires you to consider yourself fairly low value in the first place.

Westjet Management is clearly winning with regards to its branded pilot and AME groups. They have signaled that they are willing to burn Westjet to the ground versus set a positive pay standard. You should've...just let them try and burn it to the ground. There are lots of opportunities for experienced crews these days, this business of taking gentle gains in TA's with long hangover periods is absolutely absurd.

[JBI]

The gains, or lack thereof, are due to pilots on the respective MEC who were voted in and represent that specific pilot group. It has no bearing on ALPA's ability. At the end of the day, a gain is a gain for them...I guess.

I would imagine those pilots, who were voted onto the Encore MEC, have a lower confidence level in their ability and value with regards to compensation - and thus - should not have been on the MEC to begin with. ALPA just provides the respective union the guidance and tools to do their jobs. The represented pilot group that works for Encore is the one that needs to be strong - and they have shown they are not, likely due to the fact that working at Encore requires you to consider yourself fairly low value in the first place.

Westjet Management is clearly winning with regards to its branded pilot and AME groups. They have signaled that they are willing to burn Westjet to the ground versus set a positive pay standard. You should've...just let them try and burn it to the ground. There are lots of opportunities for experienced crews these days, this business of taking gentle gains in TA's with long hangover periods is absolutely absurd.

This is a load of horse-sh*t - You're entitled to your opinion on how good/bad the Encore CA2 is. Fair enough. But the rest of your post lacks an understanding of the situation.

Telling another pilot who is set to earn $160k on a T4 this year (6/7 year Captain with an average year with most months above MMG plus 10% Company Match WSP) that they should just let them burn the company to the ground and get a new job is selfish and ignorant.

Many on the Encore MEC have been at it for years and multiple times have told the Company to shove it - they are not weak. When the vote for TA1 failed, a few of the Encore MEC members were at an IFALPA Conference with both ALPA Int'l and ALPA Canada Presidents in attendance. Add in multiple experienced ALPA lawyers who have gone through strikes/lockouts, there was significant advice and counsel being given. I wasn't present for the meetings, but I can guarantee that the MEC took all that experience and advice coming to the resolution that they did. I have spoken with high level ALPA execs/lawyers who have decades of experience and think the Encore MEC did the exact right thing given the situation.

And finally, as someone who did work at Encore, to your comment "working at Encore requires you to consider yourself fairly low value in the first place" - go F*ck yourself!

Encore had it's problems, no doubt, but my quality of life, pay, work/life balance and ability to live the life I want was better for me at Encore than it would have been if I went to Jazz, Porter or AC (and I've had opportunities for all options) or continued working as a full-time lawyer (yes, I have a law degree). I have no desire to get into a pissing match about whether Encore/WJ is better than where you work, I try and look at things objectively to move things forward for all pilots.

[Factchkr]

ALPA just released their Economic & Financial analysis report on record profits in the airline industry compounded with a pilot shortage and here we are with marginal gains with a whopping 5 yrs deal.

It's astonishingly ridiculous how under performing this profession is doing in execution

Enjoy flying FULL PLANES this summer everyone at bare bones rates

The Shareholders appreciate it!

Is it possible that ALPA is misrepresenting the facts? Wouldn't be the first time.

[ShillBill]

The gains, or lack thereof, are due to pilots on the respective MEC who were voted in and represent that specific pilot group. It has no bearing on ALPA's ability. At the end of the day, a gain is a gain for them...I guess.

I would imagine those pilots, who were voted onto the Encore MEC, have a lower confidence level in their ability and value with regards to compensation - and thus - should not have been on the MEC to begin with. ALPA just provides the respective union the guidance and tools to do their jobs. The represented pilot group that works for Encore is the one that needs to be strong - and they have shown they are not, likely due to the fact that working at Encore requires you to consider yourself fairly low value in the first place.

Westjet Management is clearly winning with regards to its branded pilot and AME groups. They have signaled that they are willing to burn Westjet to the ground versus set a positive pay standard. You should've...just let them try and burn it to the ground. There are lots of opportunities for experienced crews these days, this business of taking gentle gains in TA's with long hangover periods is absolutely absurd.

This is a load of horse-sh*t - You're entitled to your opinion on how good/bad the Encore CA2 is. Fair enough. But the rest of your post lacks an understanding of the situation.

Telling another pilot who is set to earn $160k on a T4 this year (6/7 year Captain with an average year with most months above MMG plus 10% Company Match WSP) that they should just let them burn the company to the ground and get a new job is selfish and ignorant.

Many on the Encore MEC have been at it for years and multiple times have told the Company to shove it - they are not weak. When the vote for TA1 failed, a few of the Encore MEC members were at an IFALPA Conference with both ALPA Int'l and ALPA Canada Presidents in attendance. Add in multiple experienced ALPA lawyers who have gone through strikes/lockouts, there was significant advice and counsel being given. I wasn't present for the meetings, but I can guarantee that the MEC took all that experience and advice coming to the resolution that they did. I have spoken with high level ALPA execs/lawyers who have decades of experience and think the Encore MEC did the exact right thing given the situation.

And finally, as someone who did work at Encore, to your comment "working at Encore requires you to consider yourself fairly low value in the first place" - go F*ck yourself!

Encore had it's problems, no doubt, but my quality of life, pay, work/life balance and ability to live the life I want was better for me at Encore than it would have been if I went to Jazz, Porter or AC (and I've had opportunities for all options) or continued working as a full-time lawyer (yes, I have a law degree). I have no desire to get into a pissing match about whether Encore/WJ is better than where you work, I try and look at things objectively to move things forward for all pilots.

So many things wrong here and it's all about framing:

1) disconnect on what the value of a pilot is. $160k (Canadian) is not impressive. The pilot shortage despite some rhetoric on here isn't going anywhere. There are starting salaries over this amazing $160k out there and will only go up as this pilot shortage worsens. We need to stop floating around these rather pathetic T4s and realize that they still aren't enough. I mean, why are Canadian regional pilots worth 50% to their US Counterparts? It's staggering

2) pilots lead pilot unions. Period. Lawyers don't. I'm sorry lawyer life wasn't for you but this has zero bearing on what a pilot is worth.

3) Local phenomenon of Calgary. I'm happy people are happy in Calgary but again, 17 days of work a month is not "great quality of life". And when you're making trash money. Enjoy your days off with no money

4) the consulting from ALPA. While valuable, remember, those well paid lawyers are heading home after their all paid conferences to their flashy homes. They don't get paid more when pilots get paid more. They are going to be inherently risk adverse.

And this applies to all the support from all US ALPA pilots. They are care I'm sure, but if you guys are happy making a fraction of them, that's on you. They are going home to large homes with boats, planes, and cottages

WJ negotiates tough. You have to walk in the room and be, well, if you guys can't pay a proper wage, then shut it down. That takes cahoonas. Obviously there was a serious lack of it here

[cjp]

The gains, or lack thereof, are due to pilots on the respective MEC who were voted in and represent that specific pilot group. It has no bearing on ALPA's ability. At the end of the day, a gain is a gain for them...I guess.

I would imagine those pilots, who were voted onto the Encore MEC, have a lower confidence level in their ability and value with regards to compensation - and thus - should not have been on the MEC to begin with. ALPA just provides the respective union the guidance and tools to do their jobs. The represented pilot group that works for Encore is the one that needs to be strong - and they have shown they are not, likely due to the fact that working at Encore requires you to consider yourself fairly low value in the first place.

Westjet Management is clearly winning with regards to its branded pilot and AME groups. They have signaled that they are willing to burn Westjet to the ground versus set a positive pay standard. You should've...just let them try and burn it to the ground. There are lots of opportunities for experienced crews these days, this business of taking gentle gains in TA's with long hangover periods is absolutely absurd.

This is a load of horse-sh*t - You're entitled to your opinion on how good/bad the Encore CA2 is. Fair enough. But the rest of your post lacks an understanding of the situation.

I am, and that's unfortunately my opinion.

Telling another pilot who is set to earn $160k on a T4 this year (6/7 year Captain with an average year with most months above MMG plus 10% Company Match WSP) that they should just let them burn the company to the ground and get a new job is selfish and ignorant.


You have signaled to your management you wish to protect your seats. They will continue to use that against you.

Many on the Encore MEC have been at it for years and multiple times have told the Company to shove it - they are not weak. When the vote for TA1 failed, a few of the Encore MEC members were at an IFALPA Conference with both ALPA Int'l and ALPA Canada Presidents in attendance. Add in multiple experienced ALPA lawyers who have gone through strikes/lockouts, there was significant advice and counsel being given. I wasn't present for the meetings, but I can guarantee that the MEC took all that experience and advice coming to the resolution that they did. I have spoken with high level ALPA execs/lawyers who have decades of experience and think the Encore MEC did the exact right thing given the situation.

If it was that easy to convince you the TA was valuable and as good as you were going to get - then who am I except a much better paid observer.

And finally, as someone who did work at Encore, to your comment "working at Encore requires you to consider yourself fairly low value in the first place" - go F*ck yourself!

Opinions.

Encore had it's problems, no doubt, but my quality of life, pay, work/life balance and ability to live the life I want was better for me at Encore than it would have been if I went to Jazz, Porter or AC (and I've had opportunities for all options) or continued working as a full-time lawyer (yes, I have a law degree). I have no desire to get into a pissing match about whether Encore/WJ is better than where you work, I try and look at things objectively to move things forward for all pilots.

I imagine the fact that it's primarily western bases helped with your decision on that. Do you have any plans to flow to mainline? What happened with that flow through united list thing?

[fish4life]

So many things wrong here and it's all about framing:

1) disconnect on what the value of a pilot is. $160k (Canadian) is not impressive. The pilot shortage despite some rhetoric on here isn't going anywhere. There are starting salaries over this amazing $160k out there and will only go up as this pilot shortage worsens. We need to stop floating around these rather pathetic T4s and realize that they still aren't enough. I mean, why are Canadian regional worth 50% to their US Counterparts? It's staggering

4) the consulting from ALPA. While valuable, remember, those well paid lawyers are heading home after their all paid conferences to their flashy homes. They don't get paid more when pilots get paid more. They are going to be inherently risk adverse.

1) the 1500 hour rule in the states as well as 1000 hours of part 121 ( our 705) to be captain create pinch points for US carrier that a Canadian carrier doesn’t have that can take freshly minted CPL’s and put them in the right seat of king air captains in the left seat. Both of those are contributing factors to US wages, the regional airlines down there basically can’t strike because of the railway labor act so their pay rates are directly resulting from supply issues not “showing the company”.

4) I think you over estimate how much labour lawyers make, most captains will make more than most labour lawyers.

[Blueontop]

So many things wrong here and it's all about framing:

1) disconnect on what the value of a pilot is. $160k (Canadian) is not impressive. The pilot shortage despite some rhetoric on here isn't going anywhere. There are starting salaries over this amazing $160k out there and will only go up as this pilot shortage worsens. We need to stop floating around these rather pathetic T4s and realize that they still aren't enough. I mean, why are Canadian regional worth 50% to their US Counterparts? It's staggering

4) the consulting from ALPA. While valuable, remember, those well paid lawyers are heading home after their all paid conferences to their flashy homes. They don't get paid more when pilots get paid more. They are going to be inherently risk adverse.

1) the 1500 hour rule in the states as well as 1000 hours of part 121 ( our 705) to be captain create pinch points for US carrier that a Canadian carrier doesn’t have that can take freshly minted CPL’s and put them in the right seat of king air captains in the left seat. Both of those are contributing factors to US wages, the regional airlines down there basically can’t strike because of the railway labor act so their pay rates are directly resulting from supply issues not “showing the company”.

4) I think you over estimate how much labour lawyers make, most captains will make more than most labour lawyers.

The legacy airlines down south have no shortage of applicants. Never have, never will.

[JBI]

If it was that easy to convince you the TA was valuable and as good as you were going to get - then who am I except a much better paid observer.

And finally, as someone who did work at Encore, to your comment "working at Encore requires you to consider yourself fairly low value in the first place" - go F*ck yourself!

Opinions.

Encore had it's problems, no doubt, but my quality of life, pay, work/life balance and ability to live the life I want was better for me at Encore than it would have been if I went to Jazz, Porter or AC (and I've had opportunities for all options) or continued working as a full-time lawyer (yes, I have a law degree). I have no desire to get into a pissing match about whether Encore/WJ is better than where you work, I try and look at things objectively to move things forward for all pilots.

I imagine the fact that it's primarily western bases helped with your decision on that. Do you have any plans to flow to mainline? What happened with that flow through united list thing?

You're an E2 training Captain and former Corporate Jet pilot - surprising you feel the need to brag that you make more money than a Q400 pilot. But, honestly, no sarcasm, I'm glad your income is quite high. I mean you need it to live in Toronto. Don't get me wrong, I'm from there and go back frequently, but no thanks.

My decision to go to Encore back in the day was actually based on 3 main items:
1- they had a commuting policy which protected my commutes from the US (Porter didn't at the time, but I was classmates with your former Asst CP and, true story, partially because myself and other potential candidates were opting to go to other regionals, Porter got a commuting policy the following year).
2- I was guaranteed a YYZ base but had options for being out West later; and
3- I would get a reserved seniority number at mainline

At the time, Encore was an objectively better decision than Porter and provided significantly more value to me. In fact, many of my initial classmates had come from Porter - all of them are now at WestJet or AC. I'm happy for the Porter pilots that stayed and my friends that are now at Porter on the E2. If I were still at Encore and living out East, I'd be looking at Porter for sure.

As for your flowing to Mainline comment, unfortunately I see your reading comprehension is as strong as your syntax ability. I flowed to WJ a couple years ago, thanks. I'm enjoying the 737 immensely. Getting close to the 787 as well. Schedule's great, never did reserve, I get 6 weeks of vacation/stats and get to spend lots of time at home or my cottage with the family, also just bought a boat (not meant to brag, just as a reply to a previous post). The lakes in Alberta are not quite as nice as my Grandparent's old cottage in Muskoka, but cottages don't cost $2 million and I don't have to fight 5 hours of traffic on the 400 on a weekend day in the summer. Life's pretty good. In earnest, I hope that all pilots in Canada can get to a spot where they feel that way.

You may notice that I have never commented on how Encore pilots should have voted on the TAs. There were positives and negatives of it. Where my comments have come from is the uninformed beliefs from pilots at other airlines, you know, like Porter or AC, who have no idea what's actually happening at "The WestJet Group of Companies" then insulting my colleagues. Especially coming from a Training Captain, it's pretty bush league.

[phenix]

it's pretty bush league.

There is way more class in the bush

[Diadem]

cahoonas

Do you mean "cojones"? Or are you saying that members of negotiating committees need to be Hawaiian shamans?

[cjp]

Especially coming from a Training Captain, it's pretty bush league.

surprising you feel the need to brag that you make more money than a Q400 pilot.

I wish there was more competition salary wise and Canadian Dash crews were suddenly making more, but alas Westjet Mainline pilots took the first offer to come across the table and Encore took the second. Industry needle didn't really move despite flight crews being firmly in the driver seat for negots. Shame really and to boot it'll be a while before those contracts are opened again.

We'll have to wait for Air Canada to hopefully make a move in the fall for the needle of the industry to finally find some momentum - hopefully.

I've always smiled hearing bush league.

[theacolyte]

"ALPA" isn't the one negotiating these deals. ALPA provides tools, a service. They do not go and bargain on your behalf. That is done by your elected leaders and your negotiating committee. If you don't like the deal that was negotiated it's not a "big bad ALPAs fault", it's your own elected leaderships fault. Take it up with them.... ALPA isn't the messiah.

[cdnavater]

Especially coming from a Training Captain, it's pretty bush league.

surprising you feel the need to brag that you make more money than a Q400 pilot.

I wish there was more competition salary wise and Canadian Dash crews were suddenly making more, but alas Westjet Mainline pilots took the first offer to come across the table and Encore took the second. Industry needle didn't really move despite flight crews being firmly in the driver seat for negots. Shame really and to boot it'll be a while before those contracts are opened again.

We'll have to wait for Air Canada to hopefully make a move in the fall for the needle of the industry to finally find some momentum - hopefully.

I've always smiled hearing bush league.

I get the feeling your problem with WJ and Encore pilots not raising the bar(in your mind) is the fact your benchmarking won’t go up due to this, so you are basically calling out pilots for not helping your case.
I have an idea, grow a pair and start a movement towards ALPA representation at your operation and then you fight for the good of the pilot profession, we’re all counting on you.

[cjp]

Especially coming from a Training Captain, it's pretty bush league.

surprising you feel the need to brag that you make more money than a Q400 pilot.

I wish there was more competition salary wise and Canadian Dash crews were suddenly making more, but alas Westjet Mainline pilots took the first offer to come across the table and Encore took the second. Industry needle didn't really move despite flight crews being firmly in the driver seat for negots. Shame really and to boot it'll be a while before those contracts are opened again.

We'll have to wait for Air Canada to hopefully make a move in the fall for the needle of the industry to finally find some momentum - hopefully.

I've always smiled hearing bush league.

I get the feeling your problem with WJ and Encore pilots not raising the bar(in your mind) is the fact your benchmarking won’t go up due to this, so you are basically calling out pilots for not helping your case.
I have an idea, grow a pair and start a movement towards ALPA representation at your operation and then you fight for the good of the pilot profession, we’re all counting on you.

Says the fella from Jazz. How's that working out for you? I know ALPA is a great organization, made great strides in the U.S, but it feels like we fall flat up here. Benchmarking would be great so we can go tit for tat on contracts. Competition works great for both the customer and the employees.

Unfortunately I have not seen a strong case yet to sign with ALPA to start thinking about paying dues for a lackluster showing so far. I know there is some grass level movement on the line for it at Porter.

[FelixGustof]

I flowed to WJ a couple years ago, thanks. I'm enjoying the 737 immensely. .

What pay is that...like a $100k Canadian a year? Maybe?

Are pilots really bragging about making that kind of money? Embarassing