Reasons to come to Air Canada (… or not)

[‘Bob’]

Did you say ‘HUDs’!?

[joefo]

This is correct. Look at the amount of people that were willing to come to AC on flat pay, imagine the numbers if we get a decent contract.

The issue right now is the list of qualified people willing to take a 100-150% pay cut has mostly dried up. With the contract just around the corner most are willing to wait and see. I hear many are interviewing and then deferring.

AC is also content to reduce hiring this summer due to the amount of fins that are down. Plus they are playing games against ALPA with a strike looming. However there are 60+ airplanes (220, 321xlr, 787-10) scheduled for delivery in the next 5 years. Hiring will have to continue at a steady pace.

The other thing is with the way commercial is wanting to expand I don’t think they will be retiring much (maybe some of the old 330s) until they either announce a 350 order or a 777x order.

Yep 330s will probably go, but they are spending huge money updating cabins of the 319/320/321 fleet so those aren't going anywhere soon.

They’re replacing all the screens in the older 330’s with the newer ones so I dont think they’ll be going anywhere anytime soon.

[Core]

I just can't imagine myself or anyone else who actually has any critical thinking, leaving their current job for this- unless their unhappy in their stepping-stone 703 or 705 regional, of which it could be an improvement.

You draw NB in initial and you've got a terrible life with horrific pay until you upgrade after several years, then your schedule is still just as terrible. 17-18 days a month+sim, every month, forever, unless you're burning out, say F it, and go WB FO. But STILL working 18 days a month! I'd probably have an anxiety attack realizing what I signed up in perpetuity, until 65, and not seeing the big money for 25-30 years?!
The only time I've EVER heard anyone at AC say they're loving their job are new hire RP's, but that's short lived, and not a career. Even guys a few years from retirement have complaints, but then don't we all.

Is there any way to have a good lifestyle at AC? Like 12-14 days a month at most? Sustainably and repeatedly?

[throwawaycorporate]

I just can't imagine myself or anyone else who actually has any critical thinking, leaving their current job for this- unless their unhappy in their stepping-stone 703 or 705 regional, of which it could be an improvement.

You draw NB in initial and you've got a terrible life with horrific pay until you upgrade after several years, then your schedule is still just as terrible. 17-18 days a month+sim, every month, forever, unless you're burning out, say F it, and go WB FO. But STILL working 18 days a month! I'd probably have an anxiety attack realizing what I signed up in perpetuity, until 65, and not seeing the big money for 25-30 years?!
The only time I've EVER heard anyone at AC say they're loving their job are new hire RP's, but that's short lived, and not a career. Even guys a few years from retirement have complaints, but then don't we all.

Is there any way to have a good lifestyle at AC? Like 12-14 days a month at most? Sustainably and repeatedly?

I don't work at AC but have colleagues who do. The good and bad part about AC is that you get to pick money or lifestyle.. far trips, or close trips.

Someone correct me if this is wrong but a year 5 RP should be making around ~105K, and have great relative seniority. Whenever this new contract goes through we'll see that number jump significantly. Everyone has choices to make in life and 105K to work 10 days of my choosing a month sounds very attractive to me. Skip the bigger house or new car and spend time with family or on vacations.

[Core]

Ok, but 105k is far below what you'll get almost anywhere else as a capt, even at a 703 now.... though you don't have to sit in res airports for half the day.
Alright, so someone slogs through what will likely be anywhere from 1-4 years of flat pay, we don't know yet, but had a good schedule. In the interest of sustainability, what do you do after year 5 RP? The next say 15-20 years before you take the giant schedule hit to go WB capt, BOTL on res just to make the money for a while before retirement.

[throwawaycorporate]

Ok, but 105k is far below what you'll get almost anywhere else as a capt, even at a 703 now.... though you don't have to sit in res airports for half the day.
Alright, so someone slogs through what will likely be anywhere from 1-4 years of flat pay, we don't know yet, but had a good schedule. In the interest of sustainability, what do you do after year 5 RP? The next say 15-20 years before you take the giant schedule hit to go WB capt, BOTL on res just to make the money for a while before retirement.

105K is definitely below 703CA and significantly below other 73 CA rates, however you're not a captain and work 10 days a month. I can only speak for myself as this is the career I hope to have (again not at AC yet).

I think about $'s earned per day worked. So for me making $105K a year is $875/day ($105K/12 months/10 days) which I value similarly to $168K-189K working 16 or 18 days/month respectively.

My ideal path would be to hold the RP position until I could hold the same as an FO (likely 15 years?) and the same as CA if I ever reach that seniority level.

I'm willing to live a cheaper lifestyle in a smaller house with older vehicles a bit further out from the airport or commute and spend as much time with the wife and kids as possible to make that happen.

I currently make less than $105K and don't feel like I am left wanting for much. Hoping to avoid the lifestyle inflation as time goes on.

The good thing about AC is that if priorities change you have your seniority number and can bid NB CA at any time to make some dough.

[newlygrounded]

I just can't imagine myself or anyone else who actually has any critical thinking, leaving their current job for this- unless their unhappy in their stepping-stone 703 or 705 regional, of which it could be an improvement.

You draw NB in initial and you've got a terrible life with horrific pay until you upgrade after several years, then your schedule is still just as terrible. 17-18 days a month+sim, every month, forever, unless you're burning out, say F it, and go WB FO. But STILL working 18 days a month! I'd probably have an anxiety attack realizing what I signed up in perpetuity, until 65, and not seeing the big money for 25-30 years?!
The only time I've EVER heard anyone at AC say they're loving their job are new hire RP's, but that's short lived, and not a career. Even guys a few years from retirement have complaints, but then don't we all.

Is there any way to have a good lifestyle at AC? Like 12-14 days a month at most? Sustainably and repeatedly?

Why is RP not a career move?

[flying4dollars]

Why do so many people hate on “flat pay”? Flat pay is not the problem, it’s the amount they pay that’s the issue. Your initial pay should not be based on luck of the draw. You draw a 220 and buddy next to you gets the 777 on day one and makes a pile more. Type pay is actually stupid, what is actually different up front. V1 rotate positive rate…. Your not any more or any less response because of how many people your bus can seat. It should be you are a captain or a first officer that’s it that’s all.

Thank goodness you aren't on anyones negotiating committee

[digits_]

Why do so many people hate on “flat pay”? Flat pay is not the problem, it’s the amount they pay that’s the issue. Your initial pay should not be based on luck of the draw. You draw a 220 and buddy next to you gets the 777 on day one and makes a pile more. Type pay is actually stupid, what is actually different up front. V1 rotate positive rate…. Your not any more or any less response because of how many people your bus can seat. It should be you are a captain or a first officer that’s it that’s all.

Thank goodness you aren't on anyones negotiating committee

There's nothing wrong with what he's saying. Would you vote against flat pay if it was 200k? I'm sure a case could be made for status pay or flat pay or other alternative paying schemes, as long as it was significantly higher than what it is now. Flat pay doesn't *need* to be lower.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

Why do so many people hate on “flat pay”? Flat pay is not the problem, it’s the amount they pay that’s the issue. Your initial pay should not be based on luck of the draw. You draw a 220 and buddy next to you gets the 777 on day one and makes a pile more. Type pay is actually stupid, what is actually different up front. V1 rotate positive rate…. Your not any more or any less response because of how many people your bus can seat. It should be you are a captain or a first officer that’s it that’s all.

Thank goodness you aren't on anyones negotiating committee

There's nothing wrong with what he's saying. Would you vote against flat pay if it was 200k? I'm sure a case could be made for status pay or flat pay or other alternative paying schemes, as long as it was significantly higher than what it is now. Flat pay doesn't *need* to be lower.

Flat Pay was some company wet dream sold by ACPA shills for one purpose, and one purpose only...to save the Corps money

Flat pay needs to be abolished. Just like ACPA had to be

[goingnowherefast]

Many major airlines have yr.1 pay the same for all types. A220 to 777. Why should someone's starting salary be based on drawing straws? Year 2, theoretically, someone could bid from A220 FO to 777 FO and make widebody FO pay. If both positions are being offered to initial hire classes, the lowest position FO could reasonably be expected to bid to a higher paying position pretty quickly.

Sure, $100k USD makes sense for the first year across all types, and the first year only. Make sure it's world class year 1 pay.

[Hysteria]

Many major airlines have yr.1 pay the same for all types. A220 to 777. Why should someone's starting salary be based on drawing straws? Year 2, theoretically, someone could bid from A220 FO to 777 FO and make widebody FO pay. If both positions are being offered to initial hire classes, the lowest position FO could reasonably be expected to bid to a higher paying position pretty quickly.

Sure, $100k USD makes sense for the first year across all types, and the first year only. Make sure it's world class year 1 pay.

Just remember that, in the USA, year 1 flat pay is NOT going to be 100k USD for long. Take a look at year 2027 united (only 2.5 years away).

[flying4dollars]

Why do so many people hate on “flat pay”? Flat pay is not the problem, it’s the amount they pay that’s the issue. Your initial pay should not be based on luck of the draw. You draw a 220 and buddy next to you gets the 777 on day one and makes a pile more. Type pay is actually stupid, what is actually different up front. V1 rotate positive rate…. Your not any more or any less response because of how many people your bus can seat. It should be you are a captain or a first officer that’s it that’s all.

Thank goodness you aren't on anyones negotiating committee

There's nothing wrong with what he's saying. Would you vote against flat pay if it was 200k? I'm sure a case could be made for status pay or flat pay or other alternative paying schemes, as long as it was significantly higher than what it is now. Flat pay doesn't *need* to be lower.

You see this seems to be the argument pro-flat payers seem to believe. "but what if it was $200K?". Yes, I would be against it, let me explain.

If year 1 flat pay was $200k, year 2 was $210, year 3 was $220 and year 4 was $250. First 4 years your income is $480k. Yeah that's great, but 1 year flat/probation pay and 3 years of formula is going to pay a hell of a lot more. You lose out on so much potential income and for what?? This is the corp getting its discount on you. So yes, there IS something very wrong with what he is saying, especially at a time when we are trying to eliminate the corp's discount on its pilots.

[digits_]

Thank goodness you aren't on anyones negotiating committee

There's nothing wrong with what he's saying. Would you vote against flat pay if it was 200k? I'm sure a case could be made for status pay or flat pay or other alternative paying schemes, as long as it was significantly higher than what it is now. Flat pay doesn't *need* to be lower.

You see this seems to be the argument pro-flat payers seem to believe. "but what if it was $200K?". Yes, I would be against it, let me explain.

If year 1 flat pay was $200k, year 2 was $210, year 3 was $220 and year 4 was $250. First 4 years your income is $480k. Yeah that's great, but 1 year flat/probation pay and 3 years of formula is going to pay a hell of a lot more. You lose out on so much potential income and for what?? This is the corp getting its discount on you. So yes, there IS something very wrong with what he is saying, especially at a time when we are trying to eliminate the corp's discount on its pilots.

Then make it 500k. My point is that a system of 'flat pay' does not necessarily need to be a discount. It's just a different way of paying people. Flat pay can be more than formula pay. I understand that today it isn't, but just the term 'flat pay' shouldn't be a deal breaker if it can be significantly increase and/or exceed formula pay. Realistically, it would likely turn out a bit better for narrow body pilots, and a bit worse for widebody pilots. Every system has winners and losers. But an sich, it's a viable way of determining compensation. Very similar to status pay which, although not super popular, is also a fairly mature compensation system.

[flying4dollars]

There's nothing wrong with what he's saying. Would you vote against flat pay if it was 200k? I'm sure a case could be made for status pay or flat pay or other alternative paying schemes, as long as it was significantly higher than what it is now. Flat pay doesn't *need* to be lower.

You see this seems to be the argument pro-flat payers seem to believe. "but what if it was $200K?". Yes, I would be against it, let me explain.

If year 1 flat pay was $200k, year 2 was $210, year 3 was $220 and year 4 was $250. First 4 years your income is $480k. Yeah that's great, but 1 year flat/probation pay and 3 years of formula is going to pay a hell of a lot more. You lose out on so much potential income and for what?? This is the corp getting its discount on you. So yes, there IS something very wrong with what he is saying, especially at a time when we are trying to eliminate the corp's discount on its pilots.

Then make it 500k. My point is that a system of 'flat pay' does not necessarily need to be a discount. It's just a different way of paying people. Flat pay can be more than formula pay. I understand that today it isn't, but just the term 'flat pay' shouldn't be a deal breaker if it can be significantly increase and/or exceed formula pay. Realistically, it would likely turn out a bit better for narrow body pilots, and a bit worse for widebody pilots. Every system has winners and losers. But an sich, it's a viable way of determining compensation. Very similar to status pay which, although not super popular, is also a fairly mature compensation system.

I see what you're saying but the argument is moot as an intro pay/flat pay/probation pay will always be lower than the formula pay. So sure, make flat $500k, but if it endures any longer than a year given that formula pay will always be higher, it will be a discount for the corp. My main issue with the flat pay is the 4 year duration. There is no need for it. I am not against a ONE year probation pay. It should be nothing else but that. Once you pass probation, you are a formula pilot, full stop. Anything at a flat rate beyond that is a discount to the corp, full stop.

So I ask again, how would you justify 4 year flat pay (regardless of what it starts at) if you were trying to sell it to an employee group? I am genuinely curious.

[digits_]

I see what you're saying but the argument is moot as an intro pay/flat pay/probation pay will always be lower than the formula pay.

That's an assumption that's not necessarily correct. It's perfectly possible for an airline to completely abolish formula pay, go fully to a flat pay structure, which would basically be a status pay structure at that point. If the total employee costs stay the same, it would mean some pilots would make more, others would make less. Advantages are that the older widebody captain whose body can't take the timezone changes anymore could bid a narrow body position without a loss in pay. Theoretically that would result in making more money at the beginning of your career, and slightly less at the end, compared to today's situation. Obviously there would be transient issues (eg highly paid WB captains opposing the changes). But that's a problem inherent to a switching pay structure, not an issue of flat pay or status pay in itself.

But let's consider the current situation, and address the current flat pay structure with relatively minor changes.

So I ask again, how would you justify 4 year flat pay (regardless of what it starts at) if you were trying to sell it to an employee group? I am genuinely curious.

One way to think about it, is that after 4 years, most pilots will have accumulated a seniority level that might allow them to pick their preferred base or their preferred type. By that logic, the company could acknowledge that the first 4 years might be unpleasant for new hires and thus pay everyone the same to soften the blow of not getting your prefered type. This could come with extra perks: confirmed commuting, extra GDO to compensate for the commuting pilots might have to do. in that situation you'd still have 'flat pay', but it won't be nearly as bad (assuming the rate would go up significantly).

I'm not saying that would happen. I'm merely pointing out that there are alternatives to make flat pay somewhat acceptable without spending too much negotiating capital on it to completely abolish it.

Instead of having an ego fight between 'the company needs to keep flat pay into place!' verses a 'No way, we won't sign a deal containing flat pay', there can be a situation where flat pay is officially still in place, but has turned into something much better. This way the differences between flat pay and formula pay are minimal, or compensated in alternative ways, and everybody is somewhat happy. And you'll have more negotiating capital left for other improvements.

It might turn out it's just easier to abolish flat pay, and that's fine, I'm merely trying to illustrate that flat pay in itself doesn't have to be a giant negative. It can be, and it currently is, but it doesn't *have* to be.

[flying4dollars]

I see what you're saying but the argument is moot as an intro pay/flat pay/probation pay will always be lower than the formula pay.

That's an assumption that's not necessarily correct. It's perfectly possible for an airline to completely abolish formula pay, go fully to a flat pay structure, which would basically be a status pay structure at that point. If the total employee costs stay the same, it would mean some pilots would make more, others would make less. Advantages are that the older widebody captain whose body can't take the timezone changes anymore could bid a narrow body position without a loss in pay. Theoretically that would result in making more money at the beginning of your career, and slightly less at the end, compared to today's situation. Obviously there would be transient issues (eg highly paid WB captains opposing the changes). But that's a problem inherent to a switching pay structure, not an issue of flat pay or status pay in itself.

But let's consider the current situation, and address the current flat pay structure with relatively minor changes.

So I ask again, how would you justify 4 year flat pay (regardless of what it starts at) if you were trying to sell it to an employee group? I am genuinely curious.

One way to think about it, is that after 4 years, most pilots will have accumulated a seniority level that might allow them to pick their preferred base or their preferred type. By that logic, the company could acknowledge that the first 4 years might be unpleasant for new hires and thus pay everyone the same to soften the blow of not getting your prefered type. This could come with extra perks: confirmed commuting, extra GDO to compensate for the commuting pilots might have to do. in that situation you'd still have 'flat pay', but it won't be nearly as bad (assuming the rate would go up significantly).

I'm not saying that would happen. I'm merely pointing out that there are alternatives to make flat pay somewhat acceptable without spending too much negotiating capital on it to completely abolish it.

Instead of having an ego fight between 'the company needs to keep flat pay into place!' verses a 'No way, we won't sign a deal containing flat pay', there can be a situation where flat pay is officially still in place, but has turned into something much better. This way the differences between flat pay and formula pay are minimal, or compensated in alternative ways, and everybody is somewhat happy. And you'll have more negotiating capital left for other improvements.

It might turn out it's just easier to abolish flat pay, and that's fine, I'm merely trying to illustrate that flat pay in itself doesn't have to be a giant negative. It can be, and it currently is, but it doesn't *have* to be.

Yeah that sounds logical, but also I don't know of any airline who adopts this to see an accurate representation of earnings over the flat pay period. I highly doubt AC or ALPA will be adopting that style of flat pay, and until such a time, the only viewpoint of flat pay is what has been in place for decades. I do see where you're coming from though and in theory that could work, I just don't ever see that materializing here.

[a2btrail]

I could be wrong but I think AC will not reduce flat pay duration. Rather just add 1O-15% to everyones salaries. Some folks say they will quit if they don't see improvement. But I think it's mostly all bark. Where else will they really go in Canada? Some say they want to go to the states but haven't even started the process yet.

[Blueontop]

Flat pay will be reduced to one year. At least a 1/3 of the pilot group is on shitty 4 year flat pay, including the MEC chair. Not to mention guys that were on flat pay during Covid and didn’t get years of service so are on like a 6 year flat pay. No one is voting for anything less than 1 year. They already voted down a reduction to 2 years in the failed MOA.

AC knows deep inside that they are fd when it comes to recruitment. Already can’t fill the GS they want and just getting worse. They are playing hardball but they know flat pay and it’s length are the number one reason they can’t fill GS

[twa22]

I could be wrong but I think AC will not reduce flat pay duration. Rather just add 1O-15% to everyones salaries. Some folks say they will quit if they don't see improvement. But I think it's mostly all bark. Where else will they really go in Canada? Some say they want to go to the states but haven't even started the process yet.

LOL... 4 years of flat pay with only a 10-15% raise? Haha, good joke... a 15% raise means about 67k year one vs current year 1 salary at AC if I'm not mistaken, so unless you missed the fact that Porter starts at 77k, and all regionals are above 60k, people will be leaving AC if it's a 15% raise. The bare minimum to start should be 100k, period.

[vanislepilot]

.

[digits_]

I could be wrong but I think AC will not reduce flat pay duration. Rather just add 1O-15% to everyones salaries. Some folks say they will quit if they don't see improvement. But I think it's mostly all bark. Where else will they really go in Canada? Some say they want to go to the states but haven't even started the process yet.

No you are so correct, I’m sure the union wishes the had you negotiating for them. You could have taken it even further and said maybe if they offered an A350 order the pilots would take a 10-15% cut. Best deal by far.

There's a difference between what you think will happen, and what you hope will happen. Giving how relatively minor the gains at Westjet and Encore have been, it will be quite difficult to get that world class contract. I hope I am wrong. I hope a2btrail is wrong. Time will tell...

[Canadaflyer46]

I could be wrong but I think AC will not reduce flat pay duration. Rather just add 1O-15% to everyones salaries. Some folks say they will quit if they don't see improvement. But I think it's mostly all bark. Where else will they really go in Canada? Some say they want to go to the states but haven't even started the process yet.

No you are so correct, I’m sure the union wishes the had you negotiating for them. You could have taken it even further and said maybe if they offered an A350 order the pilots would take a 10-15% cut. Best deal by far.

There's a difference between what you think will happen, and what you hope will happen. Giving how relatively minor the gains at Westjet and Encore have been, it will be quite difficult to get that world class contract. I hope I am wrong. I hope a2btrail is wrong. Time will tell...

Fully agreed. Especially considering how much other shit there is to clear up in the AC contract (vacation credit, training outside block etc etc). I don’t expect much more than WJ pay plus a few percent. I desperately hope I’m proved wrong. Canada needs a strike.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I wonder who could be behind this.

[Flyboy736]

No you are so correct, I’m sure the union wishes the had you negotiating for them. You could have taken it even further and said maybe if they offered an A350 order the pilots would take a 10-15% cut. Best deal by far.

There's a difference between what you think will happen, and what you hope will happen. Giving how relatively minor the gains at Westjet and Encore have been, it will be quite difficult to get that world class contract. I hope I am wrong. I hope a2btrail is wrong. Time will tell...

Fully agreed. Especially considering how much other shit there is to clear up in the AC contract (vacation credit, training outside block etc etc). I don’t expect much more than WJ pay plus a few percent. I desperately hope I’m proved wrong. Canada needs a strike.

This sounds like two managers coming onto AV Canada trying to 'set the tone.'
95% of my Captains on the line demand 40% raises and they are pretty consistent throughout the months so these two outliers aren't very accurate to what I'm seeing personally on a day to day basis.

Ignoring the fact that WestJet's landscape was the start of the pilot increases in Canada (you know, when AC was easily running 40 ppl every 2 weeks) they took a massive hit in pay because they got scope protection, insuring Swoop 2.0 won't steal jobs the next time a downturn occurs and management can pit pilots/routes against each other. Air Canada doesn't need to sacrifice their contract for a scope clause they already have that running for them. Huge difference from a negotiations point of view