Encore pilots vote 79% yes to garbage 5yr contract

[Canadaflyer46]

I have to say JBI, you have a knack for making someone see the other side of the argument. I had not considered just how little leverage Encore pilots carried until you spelled it out.
12 planes flying out of 47. WJ already covering their routes. CMA ready for a CPA if needed.
I honestly don't know why the company is keeping Encore around, or what their longterm plan is, but Encore certainly could be shut down and the company could carry on quite happily.
At least there's no way they can play that card with Tech Ops this week

[eurotrash]

The power behind ALPA is profession unity

Companies like WJ or ONEX strive off divide & conquer

Solidarity is about everyone willing to sacrifice a little for a greater good

If WJ wants to spit in the face of the profession by having a hissy fit because they don't WANT to pay proper wages, that's their business.

As a profession you need to value yourself and be fueled by hope instead of starved by fear

The failure of Encore here is complex but it must be called what it is- a failure. You can rationalize or project all you want but the profession lost here and as a result every pilot in this country did.

Great moments come from great opportunities. Encore had an opportunity and didn't deliver. It's too bad because it reflects negatively on all of ALPA

Hopefully there are some lessons learned moving forward because I promise you...there are only so many great opportunities like this ahead. It's not endless.

As a profession...its time to deliver

[Stratopaused]

Pilots just don't cost that much.

There is no one that can convince me that they do. They have never been an airline "deal breaker". Not once. They just aren't that big a "slice of the pie".

Encore doesn't carry the same kinds of overhead as most airlines, because so much is incorporated into WestJet, so wages make up a larger percentage of the expenses than would normally be the case. They don't have their own maintenance, they don't own any real estate, their payroll and HR staff are all mainline employees, and the CSAs outside the hubs have been contracted out. Their major expenses are fuel, insurance, training, and flight crews. The whole company essentially consists of 47 aircraft, or parts thereof, a skeleton crew of management that's required by Transport to run an airline, and the crews. There is a point at which it would become more economical to just run jets on Encore's routes, or terminate those that can't support even one 737 per day, and I find it tremendously condescending of the people with nothing at stake who are casting aspersions on others for not finding out where that point is by putting their livelihoods in jeopardy. It's notable that none of you have gone on strike in the last 25 years either.

[Bede]

2- it's pretty selfish to say to another pilot "Hey, I know you're a 7 year Captain at Encore who stands to make around $160,000 on their T4 in 2025, but you should just sacrifice your job because I don't think it's enough. You should go apply at a job that pays less now, but maybe, eventually will pay more.

Those Encore captain should all apply at a company with a REAL contract- like Air Canada.

[fish4life]

I think another factor from the company’s point of view is why pay full rates to staff Encore right now when in another few years the hiring boom that is currently going crazy is going to slow right down and there will be an oversupply again.

AC isn’t going to have massive hiring like they have been doing the last few years continue for much longer

The ULCC’s like Flair, Lynx and Jetlines have either failed or stopped expanding with no new hiring only replacement

Porter has 2 years of explosive growth left then they are also going to have their hiring slow right down

So if I’m WJ I’d be ok essentially putting Encore into hibernation until this hiring boom is over with so in 2028 I will still have a mid tier contract with a cost advantage instead of the highest paid pilots.

[digits_]

2- it's pretty selfish to say to another pilot "Hey, I know you're a 7 year Captain at Encore who stands to make around $160,000 on their T4 in 2025, but you should just sacrifice your job because I don't think it's enough. You should go apply at a job that pays less now, but maybe, eventually will pay more.

Those Encore captain should all apply at a company with a REAL contract- like Air Canada.

Fair point. But don't forget 79% of the pilots voted in favour. That means a whole bunch of underpaid FOs *also* voted in favour... That becomes a lot harder to explain logically. Yes emotionally it is understandable they might be afraid of the unknown. But financially, there would be similar lucrative paths out there that don't hinge on Encore surviving.

[cdnavater]

2- it's pretty selfish to say to another pilot "Hey, I know you're a 7 year Captain at Encore who stands to make around $160,000 on their T4 in 2025, but you should just sacrifice your job because I don't think it's enough. You should go apply at a job that pays less now, but maybe, eventually will pay more.

Those Encore captain should all apply at a company with a REAL contract- like Air Canada.

Fair point. But don't forget 79% of the pilots voted in favour. That means a whole bunch of underpaid FOs *also* voted in favour... That becomes a lot harder to explain logically. Yes emotionally it is understandable they might be afraid of the unknown. But financially, there would be similar lucrative paths out there that don't hinge on Encore surviving.

If you’re an FO at Encore, you are sub 1500 hours but more likely a big portion of them are below 1000, this lucrative path, is that Jazz?
Their pay is more than Jazz now with this, where else would they go, seriously, maybe Porter takes a few but they also have a surplus of FOs on the Q, so not likely.
I like how many posters think Encore pilots should have sacrificed their jobs for the “greater good” of the profession, how many of you can honestly say you would be willing to do that!

[digits_]

Those Encore captain should all apply at a company with a REAL contract- like Air Canada.

Fair point. But don't forget 79% of the pilots voted in favour. That means a whole bunch of underpaid FOs *also* voted in favour... That becomes a lot harder to explain logically. Yes emotionally it is understandable they might be afraid of the unknown. But financially, there would be similar lucrative paths out there that don't hinge on Encore surviving.

If you’re an FO at Encore, you are sub 1500 hours but more likely a big portion of them are below 1000, this lucrative path, is that Jazz?
Their pay is more than Jazz now with this, where else would they go, seriously, maybe Porter takes a few but they also have a surplus of FOs on the Q, so not likely.
I like how many posters think Encore pilots should have sacrificed their jobs for the “greater good” of the profession, how many of you can honestly say you would be willing to do that!

Lots of 703 and 704 ops which pay more than Encore FO wages a looking for pilots. There are options.

Regarding the 'sacrificing their jobs for the greater good' comment: Most non-encore pilots here commenting on the contract do have the experience to join Encore, but have decided against it for numerous reasons. Pay very likely being a major factor. They don't have to sacrifice their sub par job, because they refused to accept it in the first place.

But yes, if Encore pilots don't want to risk their job, are happy with the new wages and think this is the best way forward, then I suppose they should be happy and us negative nellies should just shut up. But let's make a deal then that they also lose all rights to be displeased with or comment on WJ or AC's new contract, fair?

If we assume for a moment that a strike would have led to a shut down of Encore, then it might also behoove them to contemplate the long term future of the company and their career at said company.

[stall]

I love how the pilot shortage is temporary according to some here lol

And that regional flying in Canada is some weird Canadian phenomenon where WJ can't pay its pilots more

How did pilots become so gullible??

[CPU2000]

I would argue Canadian pilots gullibility will further exacerbate the pilot shortage as some can't quite wrap their heads around being played time again & again, & again, and...again...

[Tbayer2021]

I love how the pilot shortage is temporary according to some here lol

And that regional flying in Canada is some weird Canadian phenomenon where WJ can't pay its pilots more

How did pilots become so gullible??

Become? Canadian pilots always have been. If there is any hope it lies with the younger generation. After all, the current state can only be blamed on senior pilots. Think about the type of pilot that would have made it through the wringer the last few decades.

The system has always rewarded those willing to put up with low pay and poor working conditions. It wasn't until very recently that every single job up north made you work the ramp for for an uncertain amount of time in the hopes of one day getting in the cockpit. How many times haven't I heard, "You gotta pay your dues". It was that or instructing for 2+ years to then also move up north and start raking in the cash to the tune of 25-35K a year. While getting death stares from the rampie you just cut in-front of. A few years of that and you might have started to see some better paycheques around 60K a year as a king air cpt (or similar). Fast forward a few more years and the opportunity to join a regional, or major if you're really lucky, pops up. But you'll have to take a pay-cut to the tune of 30-50%. You're telling me most of these pilots don't end up like beaten dogs or with some shade of Stockholm syndrome by the time they're flying big metal?

[RippleRock]

I would argue Canadian pilots gullibility will further exacerbate the pilot shortage as some can't quite wrap their heads around being played time again & again, & again, and...again...

I'll say it again. Pilot wages DO NOT dictate what a company does with its aircraft.

The faster we get that through our heads, and stop believing the nonsense surrounding it, the better off this profession will be.

[JBI]

I have to say JBI, you have a knack for making someone see the other side of the argument. I had not considered just how little leverage Encore pilots carried until you spelled it out.
12 planes flying out of 47. WJ already covering their routes. CMA ready for a CPA if needed.
I honestly don't know why the company is keeping Encore around, or what their longterm plan is, but Encore certainly could be shut down and the company could carry on quite happily.
At least there's no way they can play that card with Tech Ops this week

Appreciate the comment! Does that mean I win the internet? In all seriousness, I wish my opinion were different on this one and I could point to significant factors on why they had tons of leverage. At the same time, I still am very happy that some Encore pilots voted no - my posts were not trying to convince pilots otherwise.

People are allowed their opinions, but the most extreme negative ones in this situation seem to be missing a lot of facts.

[BigQ]

Add on a shitty Canadian and North American economy in the throes of the Bullwhip Effect, and yeah, all their leverage was gone.

[thepoors]

Add on a shitty Canadian and North American economy in the throes of the Bullwhip Effect, and yeah, all their leverage was gone.

No it wasn't. Any labour group in a strike position has a massive amount of leverage. They just stupidly capitulated to empty threats/bluffs from the company. Management played them and won. ALPA was arguably complicit by giving those threats any credence.

What pilots need to understand is that this is a game to these companies. We are all simply numbers and dollars. And they are playing the game far better than us. Unions should be guarding against this but at WJ they have proved to be completely gutless and ineffectual.

[ShillBill]

It had the potential to be a prolonged strike. They could have collected ALPA strike pay. When you convert that $3k USD to Canadian its pretty decent pay check for pilots in this country sadly

WJ would have eventually came around. We all know they can afford to pay industry rates

Encore pilots would have been remembered as legends. Proudly wore their battle stars

Instead they will be remembered as giant pussies on a 5 yrs locked in contract.

Of course the WestJet Group of Companies "CAN" pay the Encore Pilots better. But, what makes you think that they would as a result of a strike? Right now Encore has over HALF their fleet parked because of lack of crews. Onex/WJ/Encore could have paid way more over the last couple of years to keep the full fleet flying but they don't think it's worth it too. They've spent the last 2 years showing everyone that Encore isn't all that important to them. How will this suddenly change during a strike? Do you think the Company has/had contingencies? Or do you think that like some romantic movie they'd suddenly see how wrong they were and do anything to get the Encore pilots back to work?

I am genuinely interested in your answer.

Don't get me wrong, when I've been down at ALPA's head office and you see guys wearing their ALPA pin with the strike star on it, part of me wishes WJ would have gone on strike, even just for a day - it's a cool looking pin!

JBI this is about more than just a pin and please hope you have picketed at least once. Please. Showing up in suits at ALPA as the lowest paid ALPA B737 pilot is nice and all, but I hope you're somewhat embarrassed.

Outside of the white picket fences of ONEX and even pilots , have you read about great labor victories?

You need balls to get what you deserve. I think too many on here think things are just given without an organized campaign and some guts

WJ plays hard. You need to play harder. That's just how it is with these corporations. They negotiate tough

AC got all pissy with AeroPlan when they were negotiating. They walked out. Their offer was "unreasonable". Voila months later...they paid more for AeroPlan

If WJ doesn't want to run a regional network that's on them. We don't control the business but we can value our profession and ultimately our rates. You withdraw your labour.

It's so ridiculous to think these airlines will shutdown because of pilot wages. It's astonishingly stupid.

It's union busting 101: you say you're going to close down. You heard it with WJ. You heard it with Encore. You will hear it again. And again. And again

Name one US regional that went tits up because of high pilot wages. Now name the ones that went down because of not paying enough.

Great Lakes, Republic, Chautauqua Airlines etc

Unionism takes cahoonas. It's more than about just suits

[FelixGustof]

Honest question:

Why do WestJet pilots like JBI & Bede have the most amount of reasons for pilots to get paid less and be less militant??

The current negotiations climate seems ideal. Not sure why pilots spend so much time talking themselves out of action & raises

[CaptDukeNukem]

It had the potential to be a prolonged strike. They could have collected ALPA strike pay. When you convert that $3k USD to Canadian its pretty decent pay check for pilots in this country sadly

WJ would have eventually came around. We all know they can afford to pay industry rates

Encore pilots would have been remembered as legends. Proudly wore their battle stars

Instead they will be remembered as giant pussies on a 5 yrs locked in contract.

Of course the WestJet Group of Companies "CAN" pay the Encore Pilots better. But, what makes you think that they would as a result of a strike? Right now Encore has over HALF their fleet parked because of lack of crews. Onex/WJ/Encore could have paid way more over the last couple of years to keep the full fleet flying but they don't think it's worth it too. They've spent the last 2 years showing everyone that Encore isn't all that important to them. How will this suddenly change during a strike? Do you think the Company has/had contingencies? Or do you think that like some romantic movie they'd suddenly see how wrong they were and do anything to get the Encore pilots back to work?

I am genuinely interested in your answer.

Don't get me wrong, when I've been down at ALPA's head office and you see guys wearing their ALPA pin with the strike star on it, part of me wishes WJ would have gone on strike, even just for a day - it's a cool looking pin!

JBI this is about more than just a pin and please hope you have picketed at least once. Please. Showing up in suits at ALPA as the lowest paid ALPA B737 pilot is nice and all, but I hope you're somewhat embarrassed.

Outside of the white picket fences of ONEX and even pilots , have you read about great labor victories?

You need balls to get what you deserve. I think too many on here think things are just given without an organized campaign and some guts

WJ plays hard. You need to play harder. That's just how it is with these corporations. They negotiate tough

AC got all pissy with AeroPlan when they were negotiating. They walked out. Their offer was "unreasonable". Voila months later...they paid more for AeroPlan

If WJ doesn't want to run a regional network that's on them. We don't control the business but we can value our profession and ultimately our rates. You withdraw your labour.

It's so ridiculous to think these airlines will shutdown because of pilot wages. It's astonishingly stupid.

It's union busting 101: you say you're going to close down. You heard it with WJ. You heard it with Encore. You will hear it again. And again. And again

Name one US regional that went tits up because of high pilot wages. Now name the ones that went down because of not paying enough.

Great Lakes, Republic, Chautauqua Airlines etc

Unionism takes cahoonas. It's more than about just suits

Well said.


No airline is shutting down cuz their pilots said no. EVER.

Ac wanted Aeroplan once they found out porter was interested.

[Bede]

Honest question:

Why do WestJet pilots like JBI & Bede have the most amount of reasons for pilots to get paid less and be less militant??

a) Please point me to the point where either of us have justified getting paid less.
b) Because we've both sat at a bargaining table and understand the dynamics reasonably well.

The current negotiations climate seems ideal. Not sure why pilots spend so much time talking themselves out of action & raises

They certainly are ideal. That's why we're all seeing double digit pay increases.