Is it normal to blow through final like this?

[Jimmy2]

Could it be for ATC spacing? It looked like an unusual approach from the ground. Very high bank angles at low altitudes for such a large aircraft.

[lownslow]

Yep, not uncommon to be brought through the localizer to intercept from the other side. Bunch of reasons it may have happened.

[nohojob]

How do you know it was a very high bank angle ?

[rigpiggy]

Centre, request 26 L for shorter taxi? I'll put in the request..... Call 118.7 he has your request. Tower AC123 checking in.... You still want 26l? Yessir cleared to intercept 26 L

[CpnCrunch]

Looking at the flightaware track, it looks like 3 degrees per second, which is exactly rate 1, at about 200kts TAS and 3000ft. That means the bank angle would have been about 27 degrees. Nothing unusual about any of that. It probably just looks lower as it's such a large aircraft. And, when you're sitting in an commercial airliner and look out the window during a turn, it is a higher rate of bank than you might expect after being in a 172, but the yaw damper and autopilot (or proficient meatball pilot) means you hardly even notice it.

[16SidedOffice]

Probably just slow to respond to the vector so it required a correction. Nothing out of the ordinary.

[co-joe]

YVR generally gives really good vectors, wait till you fly to yul and they seem to think a jet can intercept a localizer at 90 degrees at 200 kts with a tailwind. Blowing 5 miles through the loc is common there.

[CaptDukeNukem]

“What wheels up time would you like to request?
There’s flow into YVR cuz 5 airplanes are in the airspace. And we can only do about 20 planes an hour.”

[DanWEC]

Happens most frequently for spacing. There's always a heads up from the controller that they'll be bringing you though the loc to reintercept. Not unusual. They were going through at 90⁰ so that was likely the plan all along.

[Braun]

YVR generally gives really good vectors, wait till you fly to yul and they seem to think a jet can intercept a localizer at 90 degrees at 200 kts with a tailwind. Blowing 5 miles through the loc is common there.

That’s weird I work that airspace and rarely see that. Have dates and times for me?

We do, sometimes, have to vector through the LOC on purpose because we don’t have the ability to do independent approaches which complicates sequencing quite a bit.

[nohojob]

In some busy places, it is specified that in the event you're on a heading to intercept the loc and the controller didn't clear you for the intercept (busy).
You are supposed to intercept.

[Rooster69]

In some busy places, it is specified that in the event you're on a heading to intercept the loc and the controller didn't clear you for the intercept (busy).
You are supposed to intercept.

What? I have never heard or seen that specified anywhere.

[ant_321]

In some busy places, it is specified that in the event you're on a heading to intercept the loc and the controller didn't clear you for the intercept (busy).
You are supposed to intercept.

What? I have never heard or seen that specified anywhere.

A couple Greek islands have that. Mostly because if you blown too far through the localizer you’ll hit mountains. I believe HER is one of them but can’t remember for sure.

[co-joe]

YVR generally gives really good vectors, wait till you fly to yul and they seem to think a jet can intercept a localizer at 90 degrees at 200 kts with a tailwind. Blowing 5 miles through the loc is common there.

That’s weird I work that airspace and rarely see that. Have dates and times for me?

We do, sometimes, have to vector through the LOC on purpose because we don’t have the ability to do independent approaches which complicates sequencing quite a bit.

No but I'll send you a message next time for sure. I haven't been getting any YUL turns lately. Could just be my perception, but late intercept vectors, or flat out forgetting to clear you for the approach has happened to me more there than anywhere else.

[CaptDukeNukem]

YVR generally gives really good vectors, wait till you fly to yul and they seem to think a jet can intercept a localizer at 90 degrees at 200 kts with a tailwind. Blowing 5 miles through the loc is common there.

5 miles? No way. Maybe like max 1. And that’s to build space. If you haven’t asked the controller WTF by (lets go with) 3. Then you’re also at fault.

[Braun]

YVR generally gives really good vectors, wait till you fly to yul and they seem to think a jet can intercept a localizer at 90 degrees at 200 kts with a tailwind. Blowing 5 miles through the loc is common there.

That’s weird I work that airspace and rarely see that. Have dates and times for me?

We do, sometimes, have to vector through the LOC on purpose because we don’t have the ability to do independent approaches which complicates sequencing quite a bit.

No but I'll send you a message next time for sure. I haven't been getting any YUL turns lately. Could just be my perception, but late intercept vectors, or flat out forgetting to clear you for the approach has happened to me more there than anywhere else.

Please do! You can also call us. We do have a lot of training in progress as well. Not that that’s an excuse but there are several factors that go into these things. Please don’t hesitate to contact me, it’ll be a pleasure to chat about things!

[DanWEC]

Braun, I appreciate your input from the ATC side. It's really informative. Guys can just complain all the time without questioning why things are happening.
We chatted a few years ago about the limitations at YUL when I questioned the repeating pattern of last minute step descent clearances from sector that often blasts the descent profile away. It boils down to down to sub-optimal runway exit capacity and occupying times.

Cheers!

[Braun]

Braun, I appreciate your input from the ATC side. It's really informative. Guys can just complain all the time without questioning why things are happening.
We chatted a few years ago about the limitations at YUL when I questioned the repeating pattern of last minute step descent clearances from sector that often blasts the descent profile away. It boils down to down to sub-optimal runway exit capacity and occupying times.

Cheers!

It’s always super interesting and informative to exchange. It’s not always the most productive forum but it does allow for some interaction.

I sense in the next few years we’ll be seeing some airspace changes to yul. We’ve been hampered by several noise complaint lawsuits that basically stopped any sort of improvement or modification of STAR’s, approaches and SID’s. We’re eager to work on it!

We have better taxiways now but the rest of the airport is such a construction mess that it makes it impossible to optimize runway usage.

Like I said, I am always open to discussions and I don’t hide behind my screen name! Cheers!

[TeePeeCreeper]

Braun, I appreciate your input from the ATC side. It's really informative. Guys can just complain all the time without questioning why things are happening.
We chatted a few years ago about the limitations at YUL when I questioned the repeating pattern of last minute step descent clearances from sector that often blasts the descent profile away. It boils down to down to sub-optimal runway exit capacity and occupying times.

Cheers!

It’s always super interesting and informative to exchange. It’s not always the most productive forum but it does allow for some interaction.

I sense in the next few years we’ll be seeing some airspace changes to yul. We’ve been hampered by several noise complaint lawsuits that basically stopped any sort of improvement or modification of STAR’s, approaches and SID’s. We’re eager to work on it!

We have better taxiways now but the rest of the airport is such a construction mess that it makes it impossible to optimize runway usage.

Like I said, I am always open to discussions and I don’t hide behind my screen name! Cheers!

I mirror Dan’s sentiment in regards to appreciating a professional back and forth dialogue.

Any word in regard as to how those modifications will impact current approches and or future operations out of YHU with the expansion plans there being in the works?

Thanks!

TPC

[Braun]

Braun, I appreciate your input from the ATC side. It's really informative. Guys can just complain all the time without questioning why things are happening.
We chatted a few years ago about the limitations at YUL when I questioned the repeating pattern of last minute step descent clearances from sector that often blasts the descent profile away. It boils down to down to sub-optimal runway exit capacity and occupying times.

Cheers!

It’s always super interesting and informative to exchange. It’s not always the most productive forum but it does allow for some interaction.

I sense in the next few years we’ll be seeing some airspace changes to yul. We’ve been hampered by several noise complaint lawsuits that basically stopped any sort of improvement or modification of STAR’s, approaches and SID’s. We’re eager to work on it!

We have better taxiways now but the rest of the airport is such a construction mess that it makes it impossible to optimize runway usage.

Like I said, I am always open to discussions and I don’t hide behind my screen name! Cheers!

I mirror Dan’s sentiment in regards to appreciating a professional back and forth dialogue.

Any word in regard as to how those modifications will impact current approches and or future operations out of YHU with the expansion plans there being in the works?

Thanks!

TPC

So as of today « upgrading » the approaches, arrival routes and general airspace around YHU is the priority. We’ve been working since September on modifying internal sectors and procedures to be able to handle the extra movements. There will several phases to it but in general the first phase is mostly internal stuff to Nav and the next phases will come in time. We’re looking at ways to add STAR’s and updated RNAV approaches into YHU. Again, noise considerations are an issue.

The other problem is YHU’s proximity is to YUL. Since it is east of YUL and most the traffic flows east to west and vice verse it makes it a bit more complicated to integrate than say a YTZ vs YYZ which is south of the field. It basically forces every single arrival into yhu to cross at least 2 of yul’s STAR’s and multiple of its departure routes. Also, for some odd geographical reason, the winds in yhu are fairly frequently in the opposite of YUL which means often have to operate on 06’s in yul and 24’s in yhu for example. Which also complicates things.

So yeah, some changes are coming but at first it’ll be a bit more transparent for the users and eventually we’ll have more updates to the yhu operation. Any form of airspace changes take forever because of all the consultation and red tape we have to go through. We’re talking years (thanks TC)

[jpilot77]

YVR generally gives really good vectors, wait till you fly to yul and they seem to think a jet can intercept a localizer at 90 degrees at 200 kts with a tailwind. Blowing 5 miles through the loc is common there.

That’s weird I work that airspace and rarely see that. Have dates and times for me?

We do, sometimes, have to vector through the LOC on purpose because we don’t have the ability to do independent approaches which complicates sequencing quite a bit.

I’m based out of YUL and have never had that happen to me.

[nohojob]

Wow ! You're lucky.
I am not complaining, those things happen, and ATC is doing a good job, but I am based in YUL and it happened to me a few times.

[Braun]

Wow ! You're lucky.
I am not complaining, those things happen, and ATC is doing a good job, but I am based in YUL and it happened to me a few times.

Of course it happens, everyone makes mistakes. Pilots included. It can be pretty difficult to vector aircraft sometimes with strong winds, frequency congestion etc…

Also, it seems that with the integration of new aircraft into fleets there is a wider range of performance when it comes to turns. The A220 turns so quickly it’s pretty common for us to wait a bit longer with the turn to final, sometimes with tailwinds this can play tricks on us. Inversely if we turn an A220 too early they often intercept
To shallow so timing is key and with anything human performance related errors will happen.

[‘Bob’]

How is a rate one turn—or a max 30 degree bank turn—different on different aircraft if the speeds are the same?

The only possible difference is roll rate.. which is usually dampened as well by autopilot or pilots who want to be nice to their passengers.

[Braun]

How is a rate one turn—or a max 30 degree bank turn—different on different aircraft if the speeds are the same?

The only possible difference is roll rate.. which is usually dampened as well by autopilot or pilots who want to be nice to their passengers.

After speaking with A220 pilots, I was told the aircraft roll rate is higher than other types and that even sometimes they are surprised at the roll rate. If I could show you the radar tapes of the difference in turn radius of an A220 and a 737 I would. It is a huge difference, especially for us in a terminal airspace.

And yes, I understand the concept of a rate 1 turn(I am also a pilot), I think the A220 just banks it much quicker.