Zanzibar wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2024 10:23 am
I hear sunwing has double the pilots that their aircraft require? Max deliveries in question etc…
It's more complicated than that - you need to understand the business model. We are certainly not overstaffed for the winter season. This was a major reason we had TFW's in the winter to keep staffing reasonable....but that creates separate arguments. Are we overstaffed for Summer - yes, however - in the original plans we were going to be kept at 40 or so airplanes year round by doing some of the Westjet summer vacation stuff.
I'm sure Westjet will figure it out eventually to keep everyone working in the summer - but they now have obligations to Sunwing to maintain and expand the winter scheduals....so there will be no overstaffing. There are aircraft shortages though - which they are trying to resolve.
Sunwing has no Max aircraft - or any other aircraft deliveries pending. The delays are on the Westjet side.
Respectfully what was initially told to the Sunwing team when the initial announcements were made by SH have been proven to be misleading. Not to get into a debate on those details on a public forum and air dirty laundry. The pilots at both merging companies will have to concede that the structure and business model of what is becoming requires change and adaptation on all parties involved. The tails will be painted a single colour and what is going to have to stop is the Us vs. Them mentality.
The merger committees will sort out the roster, the X-Comm will sort out the business model and strategic positioning. The tails coming to the fleet are known, and both models will shift slightly to make a stronger single company. I look forward to flying with all Sunwing pilots without a colour attached to your name and I hope in return you can do the same. Debating what was, and is to become on this forum or any of the private chats is futile. Emotions are high with the fear of the unknown, fear causes anxiety, and anxiety causes irrational actions at times. Our limbic brains (lizard brain) employ a fight or flight response when startled or challenged. Lets let this process unfold rationally for now and the committees to do the work.
The one constant so far in my airline career has been change, whether external economic or market pressures challenged us, internal growth, reorganization, or a global pandemic. A quote from William S. Burroughs: When we stop growing, we start dying. Lets see what happens with growth as this is still a better conversation than we had in March 2020.
Cheers
O
Respectfully - while almost all you say is true - we are still 2 completely separate operations and I was responding to the previous person asking about being overstaffed....which Sunwing is in the summer.
However - the point I was making to him is that once we are one company Westjet has contractual obligations to Sunwing vacations and to the Hotel group (owned by SH and not Westjet) Westjet needs to add aircraft to the fleet for that 40 plane usage in the winter. Westjet is not going to be doing a seasonal operation like Sunwing did - so those extra crews and aircraft will be used somewhere else in the system during the summer season (hence - no overstaffing issue). I'm sure they have lots of ideas and/or plans for that. The hiccup right now is equipment.
It's more complicated than that - you need to understand the business model. We are certainly not overstaffed for the winter season. This was a major reason we had TFW's in the winter to keep staffing reasonable....but that creates separate arguments. Are we overstaffed for Summer - yes, however - in the original plans we were going to be kept at 40 or so airplanes year round by doing some of the Westjet summer vacation stuff.
I'm sure Westjet will figure it out eventually to keep everyone working in the summer - but they now have obligations to Sunwing to maintain and expand the winter scheduals....so there will be no overstaffing. There are aircraft shortages though - which they are trying to resolve.
Sunwing has no Max aircraft - or any other aircraft deliveries pending. The delays are on the Westjet side.
Respectfully what was initially told to the Sunwing team when the initial announcements were made by SH have been proven to be misleading. Not to get into a debate on those details on a public forum and air dirty laundry. The pilots at both merging companies will have to concede that the structure and business model of what is becoming requires change and adaptation on all parties involved. The tails will be painted a single colour and what is going to have to stop is the Us vs. Them mentality.
The merger committees will sort out the roster, the X-Comm will sort out the business model and strategic positioning. The tails coming to the fleet are known, and both models will shift slightly to make a stronger single company. I look forward to flying with all Sunwing pilots without a colour attached to your name and I hope in return you can do the same. Debating what was, and is to become on this forum or any of the private chats is futile. Emotions are high with the fear of the unknown, fear causes anxiety, and anxiety causes irrational actions at times. Our limbic brains (lizard brain) employ a fight or flight response when startled or challenged. Lets let this process unfold rationally for now and the committees to do the work.
The one constant so far in my airline career has been change, whether external economic or market pressures challenged us, internal growth, reorganization, or a global pandemic. A quote from William S. Burroughs: When we stop growing, we start dying. Lets see what happens with growth as this is still a better conversation than we had in March 2020.
Cheers
O
Respectfully - while almost all you say is true - we are still 2 completely separate operations and I was responding to the previous person asking about being overstaffed....which Sunwing is in the summer.
However - the point I was making to him is that once we are one company Westjet has contractual obligations to Sunwing vacations and to the Hotel group (owned by SH and not Westjet) Westjet needs to add aircraft to the fleet for that 40 plane usage in the winter. Westjet is not going to be doing a seasonal operation like Sunwing did - so those extra crews and aircraft will be used somewhere else in the system during the summer season (hence - no overstaffing issue). I'm sure they have lots of ideas and/or plans for that. The hiccup right now is equipment.
I expect some winter leases to be baked into the contract at least for the first few years. To be flown by WJ/SWG crew obvi
It's more complicated than that - you need to understand the business model. We are certainly not overstaffed for the winter season. This was a major reason we had TFW's in the winter to keep staffing reasonable....but that creates separate arguments. Are we overstaffed for Summer - yes, however - in the original plans we were going to be kept at 40 or so airplanes year round by doing some of the Westjet summer vacation stuff.
I'm sure Westjet will figure it out eventually to keep everyone working in the summer - but they now have obligations to Sunwing to maintain and expand the winter scheduals....so there will be no overstaffing. There are aircraft shortages though - which they are trying to resolve.
Sunwing has no Max aircraft - or any other aircraft deliveries pending. The delays are on the Westjet side.
Respectfully what was initially told to the Sunwing team when the initial announcements were made by SH have been proven to be misleading. Not to get into a debate on those details on a public forum and air dirty laundry. The pilots at both merging companies will have to concede that the structure and business model of what is becoming requires change and adaptation on all parties involved. The tails will be painted a single colour and what is going to have to stop is the Us vs. Them mentality.
The merger committees will sort out the roster, the X-Comm will sort out the business model and strategic positioning. The tails coming to the fleet are known, and both models will shift slightly to make a stronger single company. I look forward to flying with all Sunwing pilots without a colour attached to your name and I hope in return you can do the same. Debating what was, and is to become on this forum or any of the private chats is futile. Emotions are high with the fear of the unknown, fear causes anxiety, and anxiety causes irrational actions at times. Our limbic brains (lizard brain) employ a fight or flight response when startled or challenged. Lets let this process unfold rationally for now and the committees to do the work.
The one constant so far in my airline career has been change, whether external economic or market pressures challenged us, internal growth, reorganization, or a global pandemic. A quote from William S. Burroughs: When we stop growing, we start dying. Lets see what happens with growth as this is still a better conversation than we had in March 2020.
Cheers
O
Respectfully - while almost all you say is true - we are still 2 completely separate operations and I was responding to the previous person asking about being overstaffed....which Sunwing is in the summer.
However - the point I was making to him is that once we are one company Westjet has contractual obligations to Sunwing vacations and to the Hotel group (owned by SH and not Westjet) Westjet needs to add aircraft to the fleet for that 40 plane usage in the winter. Westjet is not going to be doing a seasonal operation like Sunwing did - so those extra crews and aircraft will be used somewhere else in the system during the summer season (hence - no overstaffing issue). I'm sure they have lots of ideas and/or plans for that. The hiccup right now is equipment.
I doubt that that extra airplanes have to be added, synergies. Yes, Sunwing flew 40 planes during the winter schedule and a certain amount of lift is guaranteed to hotel group, what those details are is private info. Increased AC utilization can cover a lot of the needed extra winter lift.
With a combined 2500 pilots the flex from 77.5.MMG to 82.5 allows for an extra 6250 Hrs/month of flying equal to about 780 extra 8 hr flights. Increased utilization equals increased profits, more redeyes. Look at the current summer schedule redeyes everywhere, that's what will happen with winter schedule, training in the shoulder to level out the dips.
Onex didn't buy Sunwing to continue with the old model of operations, they bought it to change things to increase efficiencies.
I doubt that that extra airplanes have to be added, synergies. Yes, Sunwing flew 40 planes during the winter schedule and a certain amount of lift is guaranteed to hotel group, what those details are is private info. Increased AC utilization can cover a lot of the needed extra winter lift.
With a combined 2500 pilots the flex from 77.5.MMG to 82.5 allows for an extra 6250 Hrs/month of flying equal to about 780 extra 8 hr flights. Increased utilization equals increased profits, more redeyes. Look at the current summer schedule redeyes everywhere, that's what will happen with winter schedule, training in the shoulder to level out the dips.
I'm sure there will be some - but not everything can simply be redeyes. airplanes need certain amounts of downtime as well. I dont disagree that there will be increased utilization and some doubling up - but all that can't make up for the shortfall....there is already a search for more aircraft.
Onex didn't buy Sunwing to continue with the old model of operations, they bought it to change things to increase efficiencies.
No - they bought them because of all the money we make
WestJet aircraft will have to be utilized more efficient. Every year SWG aircraft are stretched thin. SWG does a lot of empty repositioning flights throughout the season to position for the start of a gateway and to alternate between several close gateways (ie. Hamilton Windsor London Waterloo Sudbury Thunder Bay North Bay etc..). This uses up crew and aircraft time. SWG will often charter orther carriers like former Swoop, Viva Aerobus and even Air Canada in order to not use up an aircraft and crew that is not more than 60% full sometimes out certain gateways and time slots. With the merger, I doubt that will continue to happen. I'm guessing the merger deal was that post merger WestJet will provide all of the lift.
They will need more aircraft. Sunwing has alot of profitable seasonal gateways
MaxAuto wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 2:54 am
WestJet aircraft will have to be utilized more efficient. Every year SWG aircraft are stretched thin. SWG does a lot of empty repositioning flights throughout the season to position for the start of a gateway and to alternate between several close gateways (ie. Hamilton Windsor London Waterloo Sudbury Thunder Bay North Bay etc..). This uses up crew and aircraft time. SWG will often charter orther carriers like former Swoop, Viva Aerobus and even Air Canada in order to not use up an aircraft and crew that is not more than 60% full sometimes out certain gateways and time slots. With the merger, I doubt that will continue to happen. I'm guessing the merger deal was that post merger WestJet will provide all of the lift.
They will need more aircraft. Sunwing has alot of profitable seasonal gateways
If WJ can't absorb the extra flying with the fleet they will have in the winter 2025-26, can they simply dry lease the extra airplanes needed in winter from the same places SW does now? Problem solved, with the advantage of not having to find work for these tails in spring, summer and fall. I am sure WJ could use more tails right now for the upcoming summer, I don't know if they need 40 more tails overnight though.
MaxAuto wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 2:54 am
WestJet aircraft will have to be utilized more efficient. Every year SWG aircraft are stretched thin. SWG does a lot of empty repositioning flights throughout the season to position for the start of a gateway and to alternate between several close gateways (ie. Hamilton Windsor London Waterloo Sudbury Thunder Bay North Bay etc..). This uses up crew and aircraft time. SWG will often charter orther carriers like former Swoop, Viva Aerobus and even Air Canada in order to not use up an aircraft and crew that is not more than 60% full sometimes out certain gateways and time slots. With the merger, I doubt that will continue to happen. I'm guessing the merger deal was that post merger WestJet will provide all of the lift.
They will need more aircraft. Sunwing has alot of profitable seasonal gateways
If WJ can't absorb the extra flying with the fleet they will have in the winter 2025-26, can they simply dry lease the extra airplanes needed in winter from the same places SW does now? Problem solved, with the advantage of not having to find work for these tails in spring, summer and fall. I am sure WJ could use more tails right now for the upcoming summer, I don't know if they need 40 more tails overnight though.
When Sunwing operates 40 planes, it's 19 of own airplanes, and the rest are Dry leases and Wet leases.
In the summer, the wets and drys leave, and we're sending 8 planes to Europe this summer, leaving 11 planes in Canada for our summer flying. So, there aren't 40 planes available to help out with Westjet's summer lift. At most, 3.
MaxAuto wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2024 2:54 am
WestJet aircraft will have to be utilized more efficient. Every year SWG aircraft are stretched thin. SWG does a lot of empty repositioning flights throughout the season to position for the start of a gateway and to alternate between several close gateways (ie. Hamilton Windsor London Waterloo Sudbury Thunder Bay North Bay etc..). This uses up crew and aircraft time. SWG will often charter orther carriers like former Swoop, Viva Aerobus and even Air Canada in order to not use up an aircraft and crew that is not more than 60% full sometimes out certain gateways and time slots. With the merger, I doubt that will continue to happen. I'm guessing the merger deal was that post merger WestJet will provide all of the lift.
They will need more aircraft. Sunwing has alot of profitable seasonal gateways
If WJ can't absorb the extra flying with the fleet they will have in the winter 2025-26, can they simply dry lease the extra airplanes needed in winter from the same places SW does now? Problem solved, with the advantage of not having to find work for these tails in spring, summer and fall. I am sure WJ could use more tails right now for the upcoming summer, I don't know if they need 40 more tails overnight though.
When Sunwing operates 40 planes, it's 19 of own airplanes, and the rest are Dry leases and Wet leases.
In the summer, the wets and drys leave, and we're sending 8 planes to Europe this summer, leaving 11 planes in Canada for our summer flying. So, there aren't 40 planes available to help out with Westjet's summer lift. At most, 3.
I think the point and the question were missed. WJ isn't a charter company so, by design, doesn't really needs help for summer lift. The schedule is adjusted to the ressources available.
It has been suggested that Westjet needs to acquire planes because Sunwing is busy during the winter, with no explanation on what to do with them during the 9 other months. That would be a bold move, and that type of adventurous spirit isn't very obvious amongst Westjet top brass. That's why I was asking if instead of buying new tails, it wouldn't be possible to keep doing the same thing than now: dry and wet leases, until the market is consolidated to ramp up the fleet.
When Sunwing operates 40 planes, it's 19 of own airplanes, and the rest are Dry leases and Wet leases.
In the summer, the wets and drys leave, and we're sending 8 planes to Europe this summer, leaving 11 planes in Canada for our summer flying. So, there aren't 40 planes available to help out with Westjet's summer lift. At most, 3.
If WJ can't absorb the extra flying with the fleet they will have in the winter 2025-26, can they simply dry lease the extra airplanes needed in winter from the same places SW does now? Problem solved, with the advantage of not having to find work for these tails in spring, summer and fall. I am sure WJ could use more tails right now for the upcoming summer, I don't know if they need 40 more tails overnight though.
When Sunwing operates 40 planes, it's 19 of own airplanes, and the rest are Dry leases and Wet leases.
In the summer, the wets and drys leave, and we're sending 8 planes to Europe this summer, leaving 11 planes in Canada for our summer flying. So, there aren't 40 planes available to help out with Westjet's summer lift. At most, 3.
I think the point and the question were missed. WJ isn't a charter company so, by design, doesn't really needs help for summer lift. The schedule is adjusted to the ressources available.
It has been suggested that Westjet needs to acquire planes because Sunwing is busy during the winter, with no explanation on what to do with them during the 9 other months. That would be a bold move, and that type of adventurous spirit isn't very obvious amongst Westjet top brass. That's why I was asking if instead of buying new tails, it wouldn't be possible to keep doing the same thing than now: dry and wet leases, until the market is consolidated to ramp up the fleet.
Westjet is not going to go buy 20 airplanes. Some flights could be consolidated, some may be able to get away with a later departure (higher utilization) but it's not going to work with everything. We are using I believe 8 or so from the Swoop fleet and they would have to add some more.
In theory they could lease from Smartwings/TUI - but first - it's not what they want to do....if you can keep more planes busy year round with other destination/ideas its better. Second - it's a massive undertaking to import and export aircraft every year that costs time and money....an even better reason to avoid it if possible. I do suppose they could send planes to Europe in the summer, to keep them busy like we do - but I don't think they want the hassle. For Sunwing it was a necessity, due to the massive difference in fleet sizes and the business model. Mind you it paid off very well for us during covid.
I doubt that that extra airplanes have to be added, synergies. Yes, Sunwing flew 40 planes during the winter schedule and a certain amount of lift is guaranteed to hotel group, what those details are is private info. Increased AC utilization can cover a lot of the needed extra winter lift.
With a combined 2500 pilots the flex from 77.5.MMG to 82.5 allows for an extra 6250 Hrs/month of flying equal to about 780 extra 8 hr flights. Increased utilization equals increased profits, more redeyes. Look at the current summer schedule redeyes everywhere, that's what will happen with winter schedule, training in the shoulder to level out the dips.
I'm sure there will be some - but not everything can simply be redeyes. airplanes need certain amounts of downtime as well. I dont disagree that there will be increased utilization and some doubling up - but all that can't make up for the shortfall....there is already a search for more aircraft.
Onex didn't buy Sunwing to continue with the old model of operations, they bought it to change things to increase efficiencies.
No - they bought them because of all the money we make
The search for more aircraft centers more around Boeing's inability to meet it's delivery schedule. Straight from the President's mouth Feb and March Boeing deliveries were half of the desired rate while Boeing is dealing with the QA issues. That's half of the rate, that Boeing was hoping to increase by 25% by the end of the year. The company isn't sure they will get half of the expected deliveries this year.
Yes, those aircraft are required for the planned growth of the combined group. There's not a need an extra 23(?) airplanes to equal the SW fleet numbers. While, I said redeye, early morning 5am and late night flight can also increase utilization.
I know planes need down time, (made up number for illustration) but if a plane requires 30 hrs of maintenance time/week that leaves 138 hrs of available utilization time. The closer you can get to having it the air all that time the lower your fixed costs. Tighter turn times, longer legs, more back of the clock flying all lower your fixed cost. 300K/month fixed cost divided by 11hr/day utilization equals $909.09 hr. If you increase the utilization to 11.5 hr/day your fixed cost drops to $869.56/hr a decrease in cost of 4.54%. On a 110 aircraft fleet that .5 hr. increase in utilization gives an extra 55hrs/day of flying equivalent to 5 extra aircraft at the old utilization rate. I think 5-8 new aircraft and sweat the assets for the difference.
Do you have a break down of how much money the airline operation made versus the group as a whole? Traditionally in integrated tour operations the "airline" side usually is a break even operation. That's tolerated because of positive control of guaranteed lift and customer experience.
Sunwing Airlines is zero revenue generator. It's a cost saver. The purchase of Sunwing Airlines and Sunwing Vacations is simply the the purchase of a competitor to join forces. WestJet/Sunwing vacation. WestJet provides all the lift and sells its package's along side with Sunwing vacation on eachothers reservation platforms. Sunwing Group and WestJet all get their piece of the pie.
pacman007 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:42 pm
How much of a raise will sunwing pilots get when they come to WestJet? When will the pay start?
Sunwing's contract expires in December, so the CIRB process will determine the next steps in that regard. Sunwing pilots will operate until at least April next year, so either the current contract will be extended, or a short contract will be renegotiated, or something in between. Once fully integrated into Westjet, Sunwing pilots will see an improvement on their hourly rates in accordance with the Westjet pay scale.
pacman007 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:42 pm
How much of a raise will sunwing pilots get when they come to WestJet? When will the pay start?
Sunwing's contract expires in December, so the CIRB process will determine the next steps in that regard. Sunwing pilots will operate until at least April next year, so either the current contract will be extended, or a short contract will be renegotiated, or something in between. Once fully integrated into Westjet, Sunwing pilots will see an improvement on their hourly rates in accordance with the Westjet pay scale.
I’m sorry…. Which CIRB process are you taking about in regards to the sunwing/westjet intergration?
pacman007 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 1:42 pm
How much of a raise will sunwing pilots get when they come to WestJet? When will the pay start?
Sunwing's contract expires in December, so the CIRB process will determine the next steps in that regard. Sunwing pilots will operate until at least April next year, so either the current contract will be extended, or a short contract will be renegotiated, or something in between. Once fully integrated into Westjet, Sunwing pilots will see an improvement on their hourly rates in accordance with the Westjet pay scale.
I’m sorry…. Which CIRB process are you taking about in regards to the sunwing/westjet intergration?
I'm talking about the actual merger, and the integration of the pilot groups. This process will have a big say in what happens to the Sunwing pilot contract that expires in December.
Sunwing's contract expires in December, so the CIRB process will determine the next steps in that regard. Sunwing pilots will operate until at least April next year, so either the current contract will be extended, or a short contract will be renegotiated, or something in between. Once fully integrated into Westjet, Sunwing pilots will see an improvement on their hourly rates in accordance with the Westjet pay scale.
I’m sorry…. Which CIRB process are you taking about in regards to the sunwing/westjet intergration?
I'm talking about the actual merger, and the integration of the pilot groups. This process will have a big say in what happens to the Sunwing pilot contract that expires in December.
Per the Canada Labour Code - a CBA remains in force during bargaining.
Once ALPA is certified for the integrated pilot bargaining units, the bargaining rights fall exclusively to ALPA. ALPA will enter into a protocol with the single employer that will cover timeline for workforce integration including dispensation of the Sunwing pilot CBA.
Sunwing employees go buy lottery tickets. You have hit the jackpot. Twice!!!! Pilots get a raise with job security and now AMEs get a 30% raise without having to go on strike! Enjoy the merger…..
pacman007 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:52 pm
Sunwing employees go buy lottery tickets. You have hit the jackpot. Twice!!!! Pilots get a raise with job security and now AMEs get a 30% raise without having to go on strike! Enjoy the merger…..
Way too early to buy the lottery ticket.
Too much unknown. (Base, seat, seniority).
pacman007 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 9:52 pm
Sunwing employees go buy lottery tickets. You have hit the jackpot. Twice!!!! Pilots get a raise with job security and now AMEs get a 30% raise without having to go on strike! Enjoy the merger…..
I don't know about most. But I suspect with the extra $40k per diems for winter and summer deployments and probably another $20-30 from overtime, along with a very easy base schedule of 6.5 days average a month flying since I arrived, it is going to be a pay drop both yearly and days worked along with a massive drop in quality of life.
nohojob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:12 am
Last year I added 50% to my
pay without feeling overworked,
eventhough I have a low seniority.
So I am not excited about the merger
It looks like WestJet pilots still believe their contract is superior
If both sides are smart—and we know they are—they should objectively look at the best parts of each contract, use this opportunity to make improvements, and come up with something that boosts working conditions and pay for everyone.
Hopefully, it won’t turn into a petty "my gang is better than your gang" battle.
The company would love that, as they’d be the only ones to benefit, leaving Canadian aviation unchanged once again.
I don't think the biggest issue is which contract is best.
The main thing is going to be how the integration of both list is going to be.
That's where the bitter fight will happen.
