Encore's TA2 with some numbers

[cdnavater]

I don't get it, are you for or against pilots getting significant increases? JBI's facts and logic are good, but the reality is that pilot groups have been driven by fear for far, far too long in this country... And this is a perfect statement that shows that. Nobody had ever gotten anywhere without some form of risk, and we inherently chose a career with a lot more risk then the average folk. You want to win big, you gotta make some tough choices in the end... Till now, no one has taken the risk and rolled the dice, and look at the state our industry is in.... I can go sell cars and make more then a year 1 captain at a Canadian regional

That's a fair argument, but I think misguided. I am quite risk averse- a lot more than I used to be. I've realized that with many things, the downside far exceeds the upside. We always hear about the guy who rolled the dice and it turned to gold. We never hear about the guy who rolled the dice and lost everything. There's far more of those guys.

Take, for example, Air Canada's 2013 fiasco leaving the pilots with $50M less than the TA they voted down.

The way to improve compensation in this industry is not to roll the dice and win big one time- it is to make gradual improvements contract over contract. That is finally what is happening in Canada.

Respectfully, that’s a pretty simplistic and revisionist history take on that time period and that contract at AC for someone who wasn’t on property. You’ve been around long enough and should know that.

-Jimmy

Ok, take Jazz as THE example, look at how far we were driven down after making big gains.
2010 we vote overwhelmingly to authorize a strike, the timing was perfect because the house was taking summer break and we were told the NDP and LIbs would not come back for any back to work bill, meaning we could actually strike.
Calin Rovenescu comes in to OUR bargaining room and I’m paraphrasing, you won this time but I will reduce you to the minimum the CPA allows and I will never be in a position like this again.
Shortly after that, SR started operating their first five Q400s, soon after that E175s, not to long after that GGN operates RJ. Jazz has not had any new work in years and has only shrank from 133 fins doing 900 departures daily to…..AC used this method until we were so beaten that we signed a 10 year deal and 3 years after that a 7 year extension in order to secure a future until 2035.
Like Bede I am much more risk averse than I was in 2010, partly due to above and partly due to my age and how close I am to retirement, I actually appreciate that we can’t strike because I don’t want to know how far they would go next time.
A mainline operation has much more clout and should set the bar, as for the Encore pilots, I 1000% empathize with them and get why they took the deal.
twa22, I would like to know where you work, you’re up on your high horse and clearly cannot put yourself in their shoes.
Every single Encore pilot had something to lose if WJ management was not bluffing, the more senior ones would lose their spot on the WJ list, the more junior ones are less employable and therefore might not bounce back as quickly as you seem to think!
I fully believe this management team would have set an example of them, either long term strike or shut er down.
We are about to find out what they are about with the maintenance division, time will tell but I see these guys as a strong group with their huge NO vote that sends a message and what is the response from management, refuse to continue the negotiations. Seems like they have their contingency plan in place, guess we’ll see.

[cdnavater]

I don't get it, are you for or against pilots getting significant increases? JBI's facts and logic are good, but the reality is that pilot groups have been driven by fear for far, far too long in this country... And this is a perfect statement that shows that. Nobody had ever gotten anywhere without some form of risk, and we inherently chose a career with a lot more risk then the average folk. You want to win big, you gotta make some tough choices in the end... Till now, no one has taken the risk and rolled the dice, and look at the state our industry is in.... I can go sell cars and make more then a year 1 captain at a Canadian regional

The way to improve compensation in this industry is not to roll the dice and win big one time- it is to make gradual improvements contract over contract. That is finally what is happening in Canada.

I don't know about that, you can easily make the argument that rolling the dice in this current climate will have a much different result then it did in 2013... Gradual gains are great, but most people currently can't put food on the table, look at AC pilots on flat pay, we're talking about food stamps for some over in the AC forum!

So I think we're past the point of gradual returns, enough is enough, we deserve to be paid appropriate wages for the year 2024...but that's my two cents

twa22, I have to out you here, you are being hypocritical, as a Jazz pilot I believe you are attempting to ride other Pilots coattails through their negotiations. Above you say rolling the dice is the way to go but in another thread you mention how hard it will be for a 600 hour pilot to get employed.
You clearly have not been in this business long enough to understand the difficulties of finding a new job when a few hundred are also looking, I believe you believe that a strike is a good option but make no mistake, there was a huge risk at Encore they would be shut down or out long term.
Take it down a notch, in case you didn’t notice, during our recent contract vote, many many pilots yelled vote no, they’ll come back with more!
AC told our union it was their last and final offer, we accepted that as reality and here we are months after still struggling to hire any experienced pilots, so short we can’t work our FOs enough to get the time needed to upgrade and where is the MORE, no where in sight, not even a hint they are entertaining it.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Respectfully, that’s a pretty simplistic and revisionist history take on that time period and that contract at AC for someone who wasn’t on property. You’ve been around long enough and should know that.

-Jimmy

Fair comment. Care to expand how it’s simplistic and revisionist? It was only an example to show that sometimes, banging your foot harder results in a worse deal.

This topic has been beat to death for over a decade and I have no intention of revisiting it in full or hijacking this thread. But to address the comments directly, it is simplistic and revisionist because the TA1/FOS was not quite the same due to the events surrounding how TA1 came to light. ACPA leadership blindsided a large position of the executive and the entire membership with the creation of rouge and all its b scale working conditions. The membership did not reject this in hopes of improving on the TA because they though there was more for the company to give, we rejected it because it was in no way representative of what we membership wanted and emotions flared culminating with death threats against the MEC/NC and cops having to protect them at the road shows. It was shortly thereafter turned into a referendum on the leadership and its direction it was taking the membership. Recalls and resignations followed immediately after the rejection of the TA. The bargaining environment for NC2/TA2 was now heavily tilted towards the company. FOS was imposed after the pilots were locked out in coordination with the Conservative Majority government. This contrasts greatly with the approach the Encore negotiations have taken and the political landscape they were bargaining in.

At the end of the day the membership always has the last say.

-Jimmy

[Gear Jerker]

Just want to push back on the whole.. nobody has had the guts to go all the way in Canada lately.

Former Encore pilot/current WJ pilot here.

Pepperidge farm remembers: WJ announcing Swoop the very day that WJ pilots certified with ALPA (and Encore shortly thereafter). CA1 being arbitrated. Encore CA1 negotiation process. Covid layoffs/MOAs. Recall process. Our MEC doing an exceptional job of informing, preparing and engaging us throughout the CA2 negotiation process. Multiple informational pickets, feeling a sense of pride and unity as comrades from many airlines joined us (AC, Jazz, Delta, Alaska, others I'm not remembering). And when it came down to it, all of us having planned life around picketing shifts when we went on strike for real. Seriously. I was signed up for 0800 the first day. There were going to be 200 pilots picketing at Onex HQ on Bay st. It was happening. I couldn't sleep due to the sense of fear I felt at what was about to unfold, despite feeling resolute that it was appropriate and necessary and would bear fruit. And then, at the 11th hour and 59th minute, the company opened the purse and put 10s of millions of new money into the contract, which made WJ pilots the best paid in Canada, along with a multitude of lifestyle pieces that without question make this (in my opinion) the best airline job in Canada, for the time being. (Soon to be surpassed by AC, as pattern bargaining is the tide that raises all boats)

All that to say...

There's no value in going on strike as some chest beating war story. Strike is a piece of negotiating leverage, and each situation is unique. Sometimes a unionized group has all the leverage and a strike is a way to step on a company's throat to get the best contract they can; ie WJ pilots in CA2, because the company was struggling to fill classes and seeing steady resignations to multiple airlines shortly after announcing aggressive growth plans. Other times it is emotionally charged and foolhardy and will not actually accomplish what is intended and could backfire terribly. It has happened many times.

I don't think Encore TA2 was a home run, but it wasn't worse than a double. And I don't think that a strike would have made it any better. Strike authorization happened; TA2 was voted down once, and then revised and ratified. Deliberate and useful leverage.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I don't think Encore TA2 was a home run, but it wasn't worse than a double. And I don't think that a strike would have made it any better. Strike authorization happened; TA2 was voted down once, and then revised and ratified. Deliberate and useful leverage.

Encore is losing captains almost twice as fast as they are upgrading them.

[Gear Jerker]

And I don't think there's any amount of money that would change that for 90% of Encore pilots. Very few people go there for a career; it's a stepping stone. The only thing that will keep people at Encore are flow guarantees and some type of years of service, or common employer. I'm out of my depth in saying this next part and hope somebody better informed can correct me, but I believe that all of these would require basically WJ, the WJ MEC, and the Sunwing MEC.

[Nick678]

And I don't think there's any amount of money that would change that for 90% of Encore pilots. Very few people go there for a career; it's a stepping stone. The only thing that will keep people at Encore are flow guarantees and some type of years of service, or common employer. I'm out of my depth in saying this next part and hope somebody better informed can correct me, but I believe that all of these would require basically WJ, the WJ MEC, and the Sunwing MEC.

I agree, very few hang hats at the regionals. I hope encore pilots are aware how that flow deal they just inked will be violated. Pilots will flow at the very end of the year and if it doesn’t work for Westjet for a single second it will get ignored.

[Hysteria]

Okay so… where are the numbers? Hourly rate and MMG?

[Me262]

Okay so… where are the numbers? Hourly rate and MMG?

Was floating round here. FO's start at $72 @ 75MMG, highest regional pay alongside Porter Q400

[Hysteria]

Okay so… where are the numbers? Hourly rate and MMG?

Was floating round here. FO's start at $72 @ 75MMG, highest regional pay alongside Porter Q400

64,800$. That’s almost the exact same as Jazz.

[Me262]

Okay so… where are the numbers? Hourly rate and MMG?

Was floating round here. FO's start at $72 @ 75MMG, highest regional pay alongside Porter Q400

64,800$. That’s almost the exact same as Jazz.

82.5 MMG for Jazz is wrong. It's 77.5 as per the collective agreement. 66.25 * 77.5 = 61600/yr

[cdnavater]

Was floating round here. FO's start at $72 @ 75MMG, highest regional pay alongside Porter Q400

64,800$. That’s almost the exact same as Jazz.

82.5 MMG for Jazz is wrong. It's 77.5 as per the collective agreement. 66.25 * 77.5 = 61600/yr

Look, I’m going to be nice about this because I feel bad for you but stop spreading half truths!
Yes, the contract allows the company a MMG of 77.5 but I’ve narrowed it down to you are a YYZ CRJ FO because that is the only position in the ENTIRE company that has been 77.5 all year. Every other position, equipment and base has averaged at least 82.5, most were a blocking average of 87.5 or 84.5 for the first three months and have been 84.5 or 82.5 since April. Meaning those positions, even if August onward they blocked to 77.5 will still average over 80.
I get it, you’re butthurt because you are in the most over staffed position and can’t make over 77.5 right now, but everyone else is and the company is not just YYZ FOs, you want more hours, transfer bases but don’t lie because that’s what you’re doing when you omit the whole story.
Don’t believe me, check the bid packs, they go back years and I guarantee 90% of the pilots have averaged 82.5 over the last 20 years.
Now, the pay is still shit at 77 or 87, needs to go up regardless!

[goingnowherefast]

We're not comparing apples to apples.
Porter and Encore are using MMG for their base annual pay calculations. How many pilots are actually only getting MMG? What's the historical average, 82, 83, 85?

Jazz is using 82.5 because "that's the historical average" even though 77.5 is the contractual MMG.

Either use MMG across every airline, or use some historical average. Don't mix and match.

[cdnavater]

We're not comparing apples to apples.
Porter and Encore are using MMG for their base annual pay calculations. How many pilots are actually only getting MMG? What's the historical average, 82, 83, 85?

Jazz is using 82.5 because "that's the historical average" even though 77.5 is the contractual MMG.

Either use MMG across every airline, or use some historical average. Don't mix and match.

I agree completely, I don’t have access to the other companies historical data.
It has been pointed out that some carriers in the US have MMG of 50-60 credits, if I were considering working somewhere with that I would want to know the actual average. Minimum guarantees are that, the minimum and only used when they are overstaffed which the YYZ RJ FO position is and to some extent the YUL RJ FO, they had two months at 77.5 this year, every other position has had high block windows and offerings to volunteer for even higher windows. Those pilots are not making 61,000.
When you go to the bank for a mortgage, they will ask to see your T4 and pay stubs, they won’t ask for your contractual minimum guarantee.
I’m all for just posting the hourly rate and skipping the whole annual salary thing, comparing those, Jazz is lagging behind, keep in mind that Jazz has other tangible benefits that others do not!

[Me262]

We're not comparing apples to apples.
Porter and Encore are using MMG for their base annual pay calculations. How many pilots are actually only getting MMG? What's the historical average, 82, 83, 85?

Jazz is using 82.5 because "that's the historical average" even though 77.5 is the contractual MMG.

Either use MMG across every airline, or use some historical average. Don't mix and match.

I agree completely, I don’t have access to the other companies historical data.
It has been pointed out that some carriers in the US have MMG of 50-60 credits, if I were considering working somewhere with that I would want to know the actual average. Minimum guarantees are that, the minimum and only used when they are overstaffed which the YYZ RJ FO position is and to some extent the YUL RJ FO, they had two months at 77.5 this year, every other position has had high block windows and offerings to volunteer for even higher windows. Those pilots are not making 61,000.
When you go to the bank for a mortgage, they will ask to see your T4 and pay stubs, they won’t ask for your contractual minimum guarantee.
I’m all for just posting the hourly rate and skipping the whole annual salary thing, comparing those, Jazz is lagging behind, keep in mind that Jazz has other tangible benefits that others do not!

That doesn't make my statements half truths or lies. Collective agreement is 77.5hrs full stop. One can't plan their life and mortgage on "historical" data, just like you shouldn't invest using historical data. I'm sure you heard of "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

The salary tables use MMG, therefore Jazz should use its MMG just like WJ/Porter for comparison. And you can use 50-60 credits for US carriers if that is their collective agreement MMG. That's why it's good there is both the actual rate and MMG annual salary. Let's agree Jazz should have another MOS that would put their new rates at least equal or higher than WJ/Porter if they don't want to become the next Encore with more than half the tails parked (and hopefully the entire industry reach parity with US counterparts one day)

[Turboprops]

When you go to the bank for a mortgage, they will ask to see your T4 and pay stubs, they won’t ask for your contractual minimum guarantee.

The bank actually did ask for my MMG. Yes they want pay stubs and T4, but they calculated my annual salary with hourly pay x MMG x12. No OT no historical block, just bare bone MMG

[C-GGGQ]

When you go to the bank for a mortgage, they will ask to see your T4 and pay stubs, they won’t ask for your contractual minimum guarantee.

The bank actually did ask for my MMG. Yes they want pay stubs and T4, but they calculated my annual salary with hourly pay x MMG x12. No OT no historical block, just bare bone MMG

Same. They took my minimum contract guarantee. Pay stubs be dammed

[cdnavater]

When you go to the bank for a mortgage, they will ask to see your T4 and pay stubs, they won’t ask for your contractual minimum guarantee.

The bank actually did ask for my MMG. Yes they want pay stubs and T4, but they calculated my annual salary with hourly pay x MMG x12. No OT no historical block, just bare bone MMG

Same. They took my minimum contract guarantee. Pay stubs be dammed

I don’t know what bank you’re using but mine wants two years of t4 to establish salary

[CaptDukeNukem]

The bank actually did ask for my MMG. Yes they want pay stubs and T4, but they calculated my annual salary with hourly pay x MMG x12. No OT no historical block, just bare bone MMG

Same. They took my minimum contract guarantee. Pay stubs be dammed

I don’t know what bank you’re using but mine wants two years of t4 to establish salary

You’re a green circled pilot with decades of bank info and pay history. Even if they just want the last two years to average your life, many new people in this industry don’t have that luxury.

If you haven’t worked for a single employer for more than 2 years, all the T4s you have are also useless.

[cdnavater]

Same. They took my minimum contract guarantee. Pay stubs be dammed

I don’t know what bank you’re using but mine wants two years of t4 to establish salary

You’re a green circled pilot with decades of bank info and pay history. Even if they just want the last two years to average your life, many new people in this industry don’t have that luxury.

If you haven’t worked for a single employer for more than 2 years, all the T4s you have are also useless.

Sure, it’s true and he’s not wrong, that is the pay guarantee in the contract is for when times are slow, he’s on the only slow roster in the entire company therefore all Jazz pilots are only paid that. I also conceded that the comparison should only be made to hourly rate and one should make their decision based on that, not the min guarantee because and he just can’t get this through his thick skull, 93% of Jazz pilots make more and average 82.5 over the year. The only reason it’s happening is because we don’t have enough Captains who are blocked high, he paints a worse picture than reality for most of us
I also guarantee that if he went to the bank for a mortgage and really wanted to get that house he would find a way to show he makes more than the min, of course currently and for this year so far, YYZ FOs would not be able to but every other Jazz pilot could show a few pay stubs to prove they make x amount.
My bank doesn’t even know what credit hours are, I’ve explained our pay system to my financial “expert” several times and even a couple months ago when I went to see her, I showed her my letter of employment and it included my hourly rate and she still put that in as 40 hour weeks.
When she said my debt ratio was low teens for the house I’m looking at, I figured it out and corrected her to 80 hour months, being conservative about debt, the picture changed but she never asked to see my “contract”. A letter of employment and paystubs for most big banks is enough, she said two years T4s if I want any OT included, which I did not.

[propfeather]

I don’t know what bank you’re using but mine wants two years of t4 to establish salary

Mine needed two years of t4 plus a statement from my employer of what my salary is.

[Me262]

I don’t know what bank you’re using but mine wants two years of t4 to establish salary

You’re a green circled pilot with decades of bank info and pay history. Even if they just want the last two years to average your life, many new people in this industry don’t have that luxury.

If you haven’t worked for a single employer for more than 2 years, all the T4s you have are also useless.

and he just can’t get this through his thick skull.

Nice

At least you can enjoy your 200k salary

[cdnavater]

You’re a green circled pilot with decades of bank info and pay history. Even if they just want the last two years to average your life, many new people in this industry don’t have that luxury.

If you haven’t worked for a single employer for more than 2 years, all the T4s you have are also useless.

and he just can’t get this through his thick skull.

Nice

At least you can enjoy your 200k salary

You know, I’ve been flying for 30 years now, I’ve worked for shit and earned my salary, I get it, young people today want to start at the top!
Sorry, it just doesn’t work that way and btw that’s how my dad talked to me if I was being stubborn, realize you’re part of the equation here.
Do over 90% of Jazz pilots make more than the 77.5 ?
You say past performance, blah blah blah however, even the YYZ FOs being blocked to 77.5 for the whole year will still have a company wide 82.5 average, given many were high blocks and still can be, many are still 84.5 and most others are 82.5.
If your banks are using you min guarantee and not what you actually make, switch banks, if you don’t like your spot switch base, if you don’t like your job, quit, we have a long term agreement that will only be modified again if we can’t hire enough pilots, you have choices so time to figure that out don’t you think.

[digits_]

You know, I’ve been flying for 30 years now, I’ve worked for shit

That's not something to be proud of.

young people today want to start at the top!

I have never met a single young person who wants to start at the top. Demanding a fair wage does not equal 'starting at the top'. Turning down shitty or abusive jobs does not equal 'starting at the top'. Nobody is demanding that.

[cdnavater]

You know, I’ve been flying for 30 years now, I’ve worked for shit

That's not something to be proud of.

young people today want to start at the top!

I have never met a single young person who wants to start at the top. Demanding a fair wage does not equal 'starting at the top'. Turning down shitty or abusive jobs does not equal 'starting at the top'. Nobody is demanding that.

You don’t know very many young people than if you haven’t met any who think they should start at the top, I’ve actually heard the words, why do we need a pay scale, same job for the same pay is how it should work!
I’d like to know all these young people turning down these jobs, we have a bunch working for us where are they going?
I’m all for these youngins not taking the job, maybe the pay would go up and they could quit whining about the min guarantee