Emirates road show July 14-20 … an alternative to AC?

[up on one]

Once again, supply and demand will dictate the wages being offered.

[Anticyclone]

What benefits would it be to contract at shit loads of money instead of just paying shit loads of money for employees, I don’t get your logic here!
[/quote]

Look mate i get it, the wawcons in our country for pilots is probably the lowest in the planet and that's not only disappointing but shameful.
I don't know what happened when they took the DEC's but i would presume the experience level wasn't there to upgrade people.

You see the problem with upgrades in North America is CULTURAL, we have to have PIC time in order to become a PIC, how ridiculous is that!!
You know that to become a captain in Air France, Air Lingus, Lufthansa or British Airways or..... you just need your 70hrs ish pic time acquired during your flight school on a piper warrior and yet their birds aren't falling of the sky.

Things will improve in here when GS classes start to get cancelled.

[cdnavater]

What benefits would it be to contract at shit loads of money instead of just paying shit loads of money for employees, I don’t get your logic here!

Look mate i get it, the wawcons in our country for pilots is probably the lowest in the planet and that's not only disappointing but shameful.
I don't know what happened when they took the DEC's but i would presume the experience level wasn't there to upgrade people.

You see the problem with upgrades in North America is CULTURAL, we have to have PIC time in order to become a PIC, how ridiculous is that!!
You know that to become a captain in Air France, Air Lingus, Lufthansa or British Airways or..... you just need your 70hrs ish pic time acquired during your flight school on a piper warrior and yet their birds aren't falling of the sky.

Things will improve in here when GS classes start to get cancelled.
[/quote]

Exactly my point, things will improve when GS classes are cancelled, expats returning home to lower paying DEC jobs don’t help that.
As for PIC, it is a requirement for DEC but to upgrade from FO to Captain, I’m not aware of any company that prevents that, some have a matrix but none say sorry you don’t have any PIC so you’re an FO forever.
Referring to Air France etc… those upgrades are from long time FOs who have many hours on type, you won’t see any King Air FOs hired into the left seat of a 777, it has nothing to do with culture.

[Diadem]

Air France...yet their birds aren't falling of the sky.

Well, there was that one...

[Blueontop]

Air France...yet their birds aren't falling of the sky.

Well, there was that one...

Burn!

[drop]

Transport Canada is taking forever to reissue my medical. Can I fly in the UAE in this situation using my TC ATPL but with a medical check from their local authority?

[vanislepilot]

People hating on the expats wayyyyy too much. No ones skipping any lines going DEC at Flair or Porter.

I can see why it’s so appealing, you can have the worlds best flying and destinations, fly the newest and biggest, career progression is much quicker than here, very high salaries with no tax… But some of you are like “NooOooOooOoo you must suffer the ladder like the rest of us.” Some people, young especially have no interest in waiting decades to climb a seniority ladder and finally get the stuff they want… That stuff is much much more enjoyable in your 20s 30s… make some real money, good investments and head on back. You give and take in this world….

Problem with society today is embodied in your entire post!
By the way, I don’t have a problem with taking a job at Porter, they raised the bar, it’s the ones that take the jobs that undercut I have a problem with. People don’t seem to care anymore how their actions affect others as long as you get yours and this saddens me.

It’s not a problem with society, it’s called you have one life and you should live it the way that you want, not the way that society expects you to live it. Some guys would rather go be an expat, make the money and secure a good retirement, but they will miss many Canada days, have to live elsewhere… It’s not for everyone! It’s a risk! So is waiting 20 years to finally get what you want and also be taxed 50% of your income living in the most expensive place in the world, also not for everyone!

[Stable_Approach]

Transport Canada is taking forever to reissue my medical. Can I fly in the UAE in this situation using my TC ATPL but with a medical check from their local authority?

You need a valid TC license to apply for the UAE license which the condition is a valid medical so yes, unless you can get something from TC stating it's an administrative delay, you will need to wait. The GCAA medical will be for the UAE license.

[cdnavater]

People hating on the expats wayyyyy too much. No ones skipping any lines going DEC at Flair or Porter.

I can see why it’s so appealing, you can have the worlds best flying and destinations, fly the newest and biggest, career progression is much quicker than here, very high salaries with no tax… But some of you are like “NooOooOooOoo you must suffer the ladder like the rest of us.” Some people, young especially have no interest in waiting decades to climb a seniority ladder and finally get the stuff they want… That stuff is much much more enjoyable in your 20s 30s… make some real money, good investments and head on back. You give and take in this world….

Problem with society today is embodied in your entire post!
By the way, I don’t have a problem with taking a job at Porter, they raised the bar, it’s the ones that take the jobs that undercut I have a problem with. People don’t seem to care anymore how their actions affect others as long as you get yours and this saddens me.

It’s not a problem with society, it’s called you have one life and you should live it the way that you want, not the way that society expects you to live it. Some guys would rather go be an expat, make the money and secure a good retirement, but they will miss many Canada days, have to live elsewhere… It’s not for everyone! It’s a risk! So is waiting 20 years to finally get what you want and also be taxed 50% of your income living in the most expensive place in the world, also not for everyone!

Dude, you don’t see a problem because you did not live through my era where hard work pays off, you’re in an area where nobody fails anything and cries when they fail a sim session. The problem is, you don’t see a problem with going overseas(I don’t have a problem with this) and coming back to Canada and working for less than others because you’re just padding your retirement or whatever(insert justification here) reason, this is what I have a problem with. Undercutting others doing the same job for any reason is just wrong and you apparently don’t see it, which is more to my point, society today wants instant gratification and is not willing to wait their turn!

[CaliforniaDreamin]

What benefits would it be to contract at shit loads of money instead of just paying shit loads of money for employees, I don’t get your logic here!

Look mate i get it, the wawcons in our country for pilots is probably the lowest in the planet and that's not only disappointing but shameful.
I don't know what happened when they took the DEC's but i would presume the experience level wasn't there to upgrade people.

You see the problem with upgrades in North America is CULTURAL, we have to have PIC time in order to become a PIC, how ridiculous is that!!
You know that to become a captain in Air France, Air Lingus, Lufthansa or British Airways or..... you just need your 70hrs ish pic time acquired during your flight school on a piper warrior and yet their birds aren't falling of the sky.

Things will improve in here when GS classes start to get cancelled.

How many classes were canceled at Delta/United/American etc to improve things

[cdnavater]

What benefits would it be to contract at shit loads of money instead of just paying shit loads of money for employees, I don’t get your logic here!

Look mate i get it, the wawcons in our country for pilots is probably the lowest in the planet and that's not only disappointing but shameful.
I don't know what happened when they took the DEC's but i would presume the experience level wasn't there to upgrade people.

You see the problem with upgrades in North America is CULTURAL, we have to have PIC time in order to become a PIC, how ridiculous is that!!
You know that to become a captain in Air France, Air Lingus, Lufthansa or British Airways or..... you just need your 70hrs ish pic time acquired during your flight school on a piper warrior and yet their birds aren't falling of the sky.

Things will improve in here when GS classes start to get cancelled.

How many classes were canceled at Delta/United/American etc to improve things

I don’t know, do you?
I do know that I had heard some of the more junior pilots at those companies were leaving for the higher paying positions which essentially started the pattern bargaining, add to that the regionals were having to pay significantly more to fill classes and it was a perfect storm, add to that the supply of 1500 hour pilots is finite.
I guarantee if AC comes out with starting pay over 100k, you’ll see the bottom few hundred at WJ start applying again, which will force WJ to reevaluate their pay.
You seem to think they weren’t competing for talent but by all accounts from the people I’ve talked to that have inside knowledge, they were.

[Stable_Approach]

American wages are high for one simple reason - they make it very hard for foreigners to get in. In fact it's the governments responsibility to protect American jobs. In Canada if there is a shortage, the government allows airlines to bring in pilots and where do they come from? Most likely South east Asia and Latin America where our wages are very attractive to them and they are unlikely to bargin for more. Shut down the immigration and work visas for the profession and you will see those wages climb up.

[CaliforniaDreamin]

Look mate i get it, the wawcons in our country for pilots is probably the lowest in the planet and that's not only disappointing but shameful.
I don't know what happened when they took the DEC's but i would presume the experience level wasn't there to upgrade people.

You see the problem with upgrades in North America is CULTURAL, we have to have PIC time in order to become a PIC, how ridiculous is that!!
You know that to become a captain in Air France, Air Lingus, Lufthansa or British Airways or..... you just need your 70hrs ish pic time acquired during your flight school on a piper warrior and yet their birds aren't falling of the sky.

Things will improve in here when GS classes start to get cancelled.

How many classes were canceled at Delta/United/American etc to improve things

I don’t know, do you?
I do know that I had heard some of the more junior pilots at those companies were leaving for the higher paying positions which essentially started the pattern bargaining, add to that the regionals were having to pay significantly more to fill classes and it was a perfect storm, add to that the supply of 1500 hour pilots is finite.
I guarantee if AC comes out with starting pay over 100k, you’ll see the bottom few hundred at WJ start applying again, which will force WJ to reevaluate their pay.
You seem to think they weren’t competing for talent but by all accounts from the people I’ve talked to that have inside knowledge, they were.

US Majors have NEVER had a problem hiring

US Regionals have gone out of business for NOT paying pilots enough

In Canada, WJ Encore was just going to shutdown apparently over the extra nickles to pay their pilots

In Canada, ALPA carriers push to end the labour discount to ratify deals at 50% pay to US carriers. Pretty steep discount still

[cdnavater]

How many classes were canceled at Delta/United/American etc to improve things

I don’t know, do you?
I do know that I had heard some of the more junior pilots at those companies were leaving for the higher paying positions which essentially started the pattern bargaining, add to that the regionals were having to pay significantly more to fill classes and it was a perfect storm, add to that the supply of 1500 hour pilots is finite.
I guarantee if AC comes out with starting pay over 100k, you’ll see the bottom few hundred at WJ start applying again, which will force WJ to reevaluate their pay.
You seem to think they weren’t competing for talent but by all accounts from the people I’ve talked to that have inside knowledge, they were.

US Majors have NEVER had a problem hiring

US Regionals have gone out of business for NOT paying pilots enough

In Canada, WJ Encore was just going to shutdown apparently over the extra nickles to pay their pilots

In Canada, ALPA carriers push to end the labour discount to ratify deals at 50% pay to US carriers. Pretty steep discount still

ShillBill?
Problem with hiring, no, a problem with relatively new hires quitting to go across the street, yes.
In Canada, once you accept a job at AC or WJ, very few leave for the other, with exception to last year when WJ pilots were going to AC or going through the process. Yet here we are, months after ratification and WJ is barely hiring any pilots with rumours of being slightly over staffed once the merger is complete. They had a severe amount of leverage lost to Swoop but we have pilots on here justifying how it’s ok for expat pilots to come home for those undercutting positions!
With many pilots leaving Jazz for Porter last year, I got a fairly significant raise outside of normal bargaining, we are still not getting any DEC candidates, no surprise so, possibly another raise after the AC pilots are done their negotiations. This is 100% due to lack of interest in GSs at Jazz, same with Porter, if they were able to keep attracting pilots at the first benchmark, It would have stayed that way.
Please, tell me what YOU specifically are doing to better the profession?
I turned down many shit jobs back in the early 90s and again in the early 2000s, ended up in a completely different industry for 4 years until things improved but many other pilots took those jobs, are you one of those pilots who complains but still accepts the lower standard position anyway, using seniority as your justification.

[digits_]

The problem is, you don’t see a problem with going overseas(I don’t have a problem with this) and coming back to Canada and working for less than others because you’re just padding your retirement or whatever(insert justification here) reason, this is what I have a problem with. Undercutting others doing the same job for any reason is just wrong and you apparently don’t see it, which is more to my point, society today wants instant gratification and is not willing to wait their turn!

Careful now, that sounds an awfully lot like saying "Same job for the same pay is how it should work", which is that pesky youngster attitude you don't like either...

You don’t know very many young people than if you haven’t met any who think they should start at the top, I’ve actually heard the words, why do we need a pay scale, same job for the same pay is how it should work!

Perhaps what you meant to say was "Same job for the same pay, except if it benefits me"?

[Dockjock]

Sharks are circling you love to see it. Last round we had more than one prominent manager leave for the sandbox. Willing to bet the same happens again.

[cdnavater]

The problem is, you don’t see a problem with going overseas(I don’t have a problem with this) and coming back to Canada and working for less than others because you’re just padding your retirement or whatever(insert justification here) reason, this is what I have a problem with. Undercutting others doing the same job for any reason is just wrong and you apparently don’t see it, which is more to my point, society today wants instant gratification and is not willing to wait their turn!

Careful now, that sounds an awfully lot like saying "Same job for the same pay is how it should work", which is that pesky youngster attitude you don't like either...

You don’t know very many young people than if you haven’t met any who think they should start at the top, I’ve actually heard the words, why do we need a pay scale, same job for the same pay is how it should work!

Perhaps what you meant to say was "Same job for the same pay, except if it benefits me"?

I’m fairly certain you are being intentionally obtuse, I sure hope so but for clarity I’m talking about YOS with regards to equal pay for equal work!
Some don’t think they should have to start at the bottom of the pay scale, I’ve heard them say it and not when I was in the conversation but within earshot of the conversation.
I would not be surprised to see a human rights challenge to this policy some day
On this very thread below is an example of the I want it now and don’t give a flying @#$! about who I hurt mentally that is so very prevalent these days, if you haven’t encountered it, your either blind or ignorant, maybe even one of them!
For context this “pilot” is talking about going to an expat spot and then coming back when the can afford to take a DEC spot at a reduced rate because god forbid their choice to go overseas have an adverse effect on the desire to start at the top!

“ But some of you are like “NooOooOooOoo you must suffer the ladder like the rest of us.” Some people, young especially have no interest in waiting decades to climb a seniority ladder and finally get the stuff they want… That stuff is much much more enjoyable in your 20s 30s… make some real money, good investments and head on back. You give and take in this world”
“It’s not a problem with society, it’s called you have one life and you should live it the way that you want, not the way that society expects you to live it. Some guys would rather go be an expat, make the money and secure a good retirement, but they will miss many Canada days, have to live elsewhere… It’s not for everyone! It’s a risk! So is waiting 20 years to finally get what you want and also be taxed 50% of your income living in the most expensive place in the world, also not for everyone“

[digits_]

The problem is, you don’t see a problem with going overseas(I don’t have a problem with this) and coming back to Canada and working for less than others because you’re just padding your retirement or whatever(insert justification here) reason, this is what I have a problem with. Undercutting others doing the same job for any reason is just wrong and you apparently don’t see it, which is more to my point, society today wants instant gratification and is not willing to wait their turn!

Careful now, that sounds an awfully lot like saying "Same job for the same pay is how it should work", which is that pesky youngster attitude you don't like either...

You don’t know very many young people than if you haven’t met any who think they should start at the top, I’ve actually heard the words, why do we need a pay scale, same job for the same pay is how it should work!

Perhaps what you meant to say was "Same job for the same pay, except if it benefits me"?

I’m fairly certain you are being intentionally obtuse, I sure hope so but for clarity I’m talking about YOS with regards to equal pay for equal work!
Some don’t think they should have to start at the bottom of the pay scale, I’ve heard them say it and not when I was in the conversation but within earshot of the conversation.

Why is YOS so important? You could have a 10k hour pilot and a 2k pilot both starting at the same time. How does it make sense that they would make the same salary? It's 'a' system, but there are plenty of situations where it's not fair at all. If people want to try and change that, it's their perogative.

The reason you like YOS now, is because you seem to have a lot of YOS at your current employer. I have a feeling if your employer would go bust and you had to look for another job, you'd join the 'equal pay for equal work'-crowd, because it's silly you'd be making the same as a 500 hour FO when you could be a captain. And you'd be right.

For context this “pilot” is talking about going to an expat spot and then coming back when the can afford to take a DEC spot at a reduced rate because god forbid their choice to go overseas have an adverse effect on the desire to start at the top!

He's playing the hand he's dealt with. He doesn't like the low wages in Canada, goes somewhere else to get experience, and then hopes to come back to a company that values that experience. What's wrong with that? If your/any airline decides to pay the same wage regardless of experience, you can't blame people for taking advantage of a DEC position, even if it is, hypothetically, underpaid a bit market wage wise.

Same question to you: if your airline goes bust and you can choose to go to AC as an FO, or join another airline as a DEC with a reduced captains rate, what would you pick?


And a final thought: the young people are operating in a system created by the previous/older generations. Whatever that systems allows them to do or not do, is on the older generation, not on the younger generation.

[cdnavater]

Careful now, that sounds an awfully lot like saying "Same job for the same pay is how it should work", which is that pesky youngster attitude you don't like either...



Perhaps what you meant to say was "Same job for the same pay, except if it benefits me"?

I’m fairly certain you are being intentionally obtuse, I sure hope so but for clarity I’m talking about YOS with regards to equal pay for equal work!
Some don’t think they should have to start at the bottom of the pay scale, I’ve heard them say it and not when I was in the conversation but within earshot of the conversation.

Why is YOS so important? You could have a 10k hour pilot and a 2k pilot both starting at the same time. How does it make sense that they would make the same salary? It's 'a' system, but there are plenty of situations where it's not fair at all. If people want to try and change that, it's their perogative.

The reason you like YOS now, is because you seem to have a lot of YOS at your current employer. I have a feeling if your employer would go bust and you had to look for another job, you'd join the 'equal pay for equal work'-crowd, because it's silly you'd be making the same as a 500 hour FO when you could be a captain. And you'd be right.

For context this “pilot” is talking about going to an expat spot and then coming back when the can afford to take a DEC spot at a reduced rate because god forbid their choice to go overseas have an adverse effect on the desire to start at the top!

He's playing the hand he's dealt with. He doesn't like the low wages in Canada, goes somewhere else to get experience, and then hopes to come back to a company that values that experience. What's wrong with that? If your/any airline decides to pay the same wage regardless of experience, you can't blame people for taking advantage of a DEC position, even if it is, hypothetically, underpaid a bit market wage wise.

Same question to you: if your airline goes bust and you can choose to go to AC as an FO, or join another airline as a DEC with a reduced captains rate, what would you pick?


And a final thought: the young people are operating in a system created by the previous/older generations. Whatever that systems allows them to do or not do, is on the older generation, not on the younger generation.

You make a couple good points, I’ve always been a proponent a base salary and then x amount per x of experience because I don’t think it’s right that a 7000 hour pilot starts at the same salary as the 250 college candidates, however this is the system we have and they’re not trying to change the system, they are trying to skip the system even though they have no experience. We are not talking about highly experienced pilots who could go left seat immediately, we are talking about under 1000 hours.
For the record, I would support experienced pilots starting on industry years of experience or hours or whatever metric you come up with but this has been debated before, the companies don’t care. A 2000 hour pilot can do the same job as the 7000 hour pilot according to them, good luck changing their mind, how much bargaining capital should we give up for that?
As for your question, I can’t answer that honestly right now because our system really sucks, I can only say in the past I chose bankruptcy over whoring myself out to the shit that was available, I waited four years for the industry to recover after 911, it was recovered sooner but I would not accept a job that paid crap, so I waited.
Now, closer to retirement, I would likely try for Porter before going to Flair or Cargjet, I might even prefer retirement over those two but they are talking about going overseas making a bunch of money, great but then coming back and since they don’t need the money that badly, taking theses DEC jobs which undermines the Canadian pilots who choose to stay.

[digits_]

however this is the system we have and they’re not trying to change the system, they are trying to skip the system even though they have no experience. We are not talking about highly experienced pilots who could go left seat immediately, we are talking about under 1000 hours.

Do you have a concrete example in mind of how they are trying to skip the system?

[Tbayer2021]

His examples are, "I had to do it, so should you!", "Pay your dues", and every variation of them.

[cdnavater]

His examples are, "I had to do it, so should you!", "Pay your dues", and every variation of them.

Kids these day

[Blueontop]

Dude, you don’t see a problem because you did not live through my era where hard work pays off, you’re in an area where nobody fails anything and cries when they fail a sim session. The problem is, you don’t see a problem with going overseas(I don’t have a problem with this) and coming back to Canada and working for less than others because you’re just padding your retirement or whatever(insert justification here) reason, this is what I have a problem with. Undercutting others doing the same job for any reason is just wrong and you apparently don’t see it, which is more to my point, society today wants instant gratification and is not willing to wait their turn!

You are making the “young kids” (young meaning 30-45 years old) point eloquently with that statement right there. The system designed by boomers for boomers. The same system that rewarded hard work and loyalty. Put your 25 years in and we’ll take care of you system. Us “youngins” realize that we are going to have to take care of ourselves because ain’t no one else is.

DEC is a contentious issue always. But I have always said I never blame the pilot for taking a job to put food on their families table. I blame the company for crating the opportunity in the first place. So the pressure must be put in the company via negotiations to prevent outfits like swoop and the like

[Jair]

Who's got all the T's and C's?

The basic salary scale is out there. Looking for the rest of the pie.

[bcflyer]

Who's got all the T's and C's?

The basic salary scale is out there. Looking for the rest of the pie.

Go to Pprune. You’ll find more info there.