Fleet choices

[loose]

Any word on fleet choices in the last PIT class? Are there a lot of WB FOs in that mix or mostly NB FO slots? And what was the general experience mix in that last PIT?

[thepoors]

Any word on fleet choices in the last PIT class? Are there a lot of WB FOs in that mix or mostly NB FO slots? And what was the general experience mix in that last PIT?

PIT classes for the past several months have been almost all NB FO with the occasional WB RP spot. Of the NB FO spots I'd say about 85% is 320 mainline and rouge. A few 220 and 737 in most classes but not always both.

[loose]

Any word on fleet choices in the last PIT class? Are there a lot of WB FOs in that mix or mostly NB FO slots? And what was the general experience mix in that last PIT?

PIT classes for the past several months have been almost all NB FO with the occasional WB RP spot. Of the NB FO spots I'd say about 85% is 320 mainline and rouge. A few 220 and 737 in most classes but not always both.

Thanks

[thepoors]

Any word on fleet choices in the last PIT class? Are there a lot of WB FOs in that mix or mostly NB FO slots? And what was the general experience mix in that last PIT?

PIT classes for the past several months have been almost all NB FO with the occasional WB RP spot. Of the NB FO spots I'd say about 85% is 320 mainline and rouge. A few 220 and 737 in most classes but not always both.

Thanks

I don't think WB FO spots have been offered in PIT since late last year.

[Me262]

PIT classes for the past several months have been almost all NB FO with the occasional WB RP spot. Of the NB FO spots I'd say about 85% is 320 mainline and rouge. A few 220 and 737 in most classes but not always both.

Thanks

I don't think WB FO spots have been offered in PIT since late last year.

I've heard if you have jet time they would rather give you WB FO rather than WB RP even if you wanted RP. This changed? With flat pay WB FO is a lot shittier than RP.

[loose]

Thanks

I don't think WB FO spots have been offered in PIT since late last year.

I've heard if you have jet time they would rather give you WB FO rather than WB RP even if you wanted RP. This changed? With flat pay WB FO is a lot shittier than RP.

How recent was this happening?

[flyingcanuck]

Thanks

I don't think WB FO spots have been offered in PIT since late last year.

I've heard if you have jet time they would rather give you WB FO rather than WB RP even if you wanted RP. This changed? With flat pay WB FO is a lot shittier than RP.

Roster is full for WB FOs for now until we get more planes. lots of RP spots to be filled still though from the latest bid. RP is actually a much better schedule, some guys have blocks after 3 months.

It was the case last year where they would put jet time guys direct into the WB fleet but that's not required now as I mentioned above.

[Me262]

I don't think WB FO spots have been offered in PIT since late last year.

I've heard if you have jet time they would rather give you WB FO rather than WB RP even if you wanted RP. This changed? With flat pay WB FO is a lot shittier than RP.

Roster is full for WB FOs for now until we get more planes. lots of RP spots to be filled still though from the latest bid. RP is actually a much better schedule, some guys have blocks after 3 months.

It was the case last year where they would put jet time guys direct into the WB fleet but that's not required now as I mentioned above.

That's right pretty much this. RP has a much better schedule and with flat pay for 4 years, jet timers had to go FO instead of RP with a lot worse schedule for the same money. Hopefully no more flat pay will change this.

[crystalpizza]

RP does not at all necessarily have a better schedule. The RPs out of YYZ and YUL have most of the Europe trips that operate one way and DH back (unaugmented flight one way) which with 50% DH credit make those about 12-13 hours for 3 days. The result is the "famous" 18-21 day blocks at Air Canada being most common in those positions. Some months it's been so bad that everyone bid reserve on the RP seat and the BOTL new hires actually got forced onto a block doing 6-7 crossings. Granted the turnover in the RPs out east seems to be pretty high so it might be no more than a few years at most before one holds the higher credit Asia trips giving you closer to a 9 day month.

As for YVR..... well that's a very different story.

[twa22]

The RPs out of YYZ and YUL have most of the Europe trips that operate one way and DH back (unaugmented flight one way)

This caught my eye... can you explain how this works? Why would you be deadheading back from Europe? Aren't the flights coming back blocked longer, so if they're unaugmented, it's only 2 crews crossing the pond? Or what did I miss

[crystalpizza]

The RPs out of YYZ and YUL have most of the Europe trips that operate one way and DH back (unaugmented flight one way)

This caught my eye... can you explain how this works? Why would you be deadheading back from Europe? Aren't the flights coming back blocked longer, so if they're unaugmented, it's only 2 crews crossing the pond? Or what did I miss

Two crew Europe crossings are common at Air Canada in either direction, especially the shorter (LHR, CDG, FRA, BRU) flights that arrive in Europe at an earlier or depart at a later acclimatized time. It is also possible and not uncommon for the deadheading RP to be "activated" as needed at Captain's discretion.

[twa22]

The RPs out of YYZ and YUL have most of the Europe trips that operate one way and DH back (unaugmented flight one way)

This caught my eye... can you explain how this works? Why would you be deadheading back from Europe? Aren't the flights coming back blocked longer, so if they're unaugmented, it's only 2 crews crossing the pond? Or what did I miss

Two crew Europe crossings are common at Air Canada in either direction, especially the shorter (LHR, CDG, FRA, BRU) flights that arrive in Europe at an earlier or depart at a later acclimatized time. It is also possible and not uncommon for the deadheading RP to be "activated" as needed at Captain's discretion.

Interesting, I can see LHR being 2 crew both ways but i'm still surprised to hear with the new duty regs that something like FRA coming westward still gets away with only 2 crew... I haven't looked much into the long haul rules, the way they're written you need a law degree anyways

[loose]

RP does not at all necessarily have a better schedule. The RPs out of YYZ and YUL have most of the Europe trips that operate one way and DH back (unaugmented flight one way) which with 50% DH credit make those about 12-13 hours for 3 days. The result is the "famous" 18-21 day blocks at Air Canada being most common in those positions. Some months it's been so bad that everyone bid reserve on the RP seat and the BOTL new hires actually got forced onto a block doing 6-7 crossings. Granted the turnover in the RPs out east seems to be pretty high so it might be no more than a few years at most before one holds the higher credit Asia trips giving you closer to a 9 day month.

As for YVR..... well that's a very different story.

Interesting.

[braaap Braap]

Interesting, I can see LHR being 2 crew both ways but i'm still surprised to hear with the new duty regs that something like FRA coming westward still gets away with only 2 crew... I haven't looked much into the long haul rules, the way they're written you need a law degree anyways

I think if the layover is long enough and you acclimatize to FRA time the early/mid day report provides for a longer duty time for 2 crew than a late evening red eye.

[theacolyte]

This caught my eye... can you explain how this works? Why would you be deadheading back from Europe? Aren't the flights coming back blocked longer, so if they're unaugmented, it's only 2 crews crossing the pond? Or what did I miss

Two crew Europe crossings are common at Air Canada in either direction, especially the shorter (LHR, CDG, FRA, BRU) flights that arrive in Europe at an earlier or depart at a later acclimatized time. It is also possible and not uncommon for the deadheading RP to be "activated" as needed at Captain's discretion.

Interesting, I can see LHR being 2 crew both ways but i'm still surprised to hear with the new duty regs that something like FRA coming westward still gets away with only 2 crew... I haven't looked much into the long haul rules, the way they're written you need a law degree anyways

FRA west is 3 crew. And most eastbound are as well.

[theacolyte]

The RPs out of YYZ and YUL have most of the Europe trips that operate one way and DH back (unaugmented flight one way)

This caught my eye... can you explain how this works? Why would you be deadheading back from Europe? Aren't the flights coming back blocked longer, so if they're unaugmented, it's only 2 crews crossing the pond? Or what did I miss

Two crew Europe crossings are common at Air Canada in either direction, especially the shorter (LHR, CDG, FRA, BRU) flights that arrive in Europe at an earlier or depart at a later acclimatized time. It is also possible and not uncommon for the deadheading RP to be "activated" as needed at Captain's discretion.

Wrong. There’s no 2 crew eastbound flights other than possibly LHR YHZ on the max and DUB YUL or YYZ. Even then, most go with 3.

[Flyboy736]

This caught my eye... can you explain how this works? Why would you be deadheading back from Europe? Aren't the flights coming back blocked longer, so if they're unaugmented, it's only 2 crews crossing the pond? Or what did I miss

Two crew Europe crossings are common at Air Canada in either direction, especially the shorter (LHR, CDG, FRA, BRU) flights that arrive in Europe at an earlier or depart at a later acclimatized time. It is also possible and not uncommon for the deadheading RP to be "activated" as needed at Captain's discretion.

Wrong. There’s no 2 crew eastbound flights other than possibly LHR YHZ on the max and DUB YUL or YYZ. Even then, most go with 3.

I don't know about that, my buddy is a 777fo and he was complaining about the two crew ops for one of the ways on the YYZ- Paris route. Maybe that was westbound?

Just did ART and former pit class buddy on the 330 was talking about the infamous 21 day work months he was doing as an RP. All economy class DH as well.

Regardless all this talk isn't going to help someone starting PIT next month, as currently only NB YYZ FO are being offered. They essentially closed up the Toronto RP and of course YUL and YVR are shut close for now

[altiplano]

This caught my eye... can you explain how this works? Why would you be deadheading back from Europe? Aren't the flights coming back blocked longer, so if they're unaugmented, it's only 2 crews crossing the pond? Or what did I miss

Two crew Europe crossings are common at Air Canada in either direction, especially the shorter (LHR, CDG, FRA, BRU) flights that arrive in Europe at an earlier or depart at a later acclimatized time. It is also possible and not uncommon for the deadheading RP to be "activated" as needed at Captain's discretion.

Wrong. There’s no 2 crew eastbound flights other than possibly LHR YHZ on the max and DUB YUL or YYZ. Even then, most go with 3.

Wrong.

Most AC Atlantic ops from central/eastern Canada are 2 crew.

Exceptions are basically greater than 9 hrs flight time or 12+ hr duty starting after 19:30 local or FSAG pairings.

[Protonpilot]

Wrong. There’s no 2 crew eastbound flights other than possibly LHR YHZ on the max and DUB YUL or YYZ. Even then, most go with 3.

Wrong.

YUL-GVA-YUL is only two pilots. It's brutal, the return flight is 8:35.

YUL-LIS is sometimes only two pilots.

Hopefully this gets fixed with our next CA.

[Oxi]

It's only brutal because the captain doesn't activate an RP.

[altiplano]

It's only brutal because the captain doesn't activate an RP.

There is no RP in that leg.

And when there is an RP he's usually DHing in economy as 2 guys hang in the straps all night eastbound... then you you get him for your daytime flying westbound.

[CaptDukeNukem]

It's only brutal because the captain doesn't activate an RP.

There is no RP in that leg.

And when there is an RP he's usually DHing in economy as 2 guys hang in the straps all night eastbound... then you you get him for your daytime flying westbound.

Sounds amazing!!!!

[Protonpilot]

It's only brutal because the captain doesn't activate an RP.

There is no RP in that leg.

And when there is an RP he's usually DHing in economy as 2 guys hang in the straps all night eastbound... then you you get him for your daytime flying westbound.

Sounds amazing!!!!

It's not.

Talk to the crews who operate this sector. The departure time out of Montreal is 8:20 PM (and for the longest time it was 8:45). If you face a delay, and the Geneva flight is often late as it's held for connecting passengers and baggage, this departure time creeps past 9:00 PM. After 9:00 PM you're technically entitled to a RP or an augment pilot, but the usual response from crew sked is "We've called him in, he's doing his best. You should be able to push back by midnight." Not much better. Always a tough decision for the operating crew managing their fatigue.

As I said, hopefully this gets fixed in this round.

[Me262]

There is no RP in that leg.

And when there is an RP he's usually DHing in economy as 2 guys hang in the straps all night eastbound... then you you get him for your daytime flying westbound.

Sounds amazing!!!!

It's not.

Talk to the crews who operate this sector. The departure time out of Montreal is 8:20 PM (and for the longest time it was 8:45). If you face a delay, and the Geneva flight is often late as it's held for connecting passengers and baggage, this departure time creeps past 9:00 PM. After 9:00 PM you're technically entitled to a RP or an augment pilot, but the usual response from crew sked is "We've called him in, he's doing his best. You should be able to push back by midnight." Not much better. Always a tough decision for the operating crew managing their fatigue.

As I said, hopefully this gets fixed in this round.

He's Porter, he's just sarcastic

Can you release the breaks and start the timer at least?

[BTD]

You can, but technically it is against FOM policy.