What's up

[CpnCrunch]

The last few days WJ has had 3x the cancellations as AC. Absolutely crazy, and unsustainable. Reddit rumor mill says it's due to pilot shortage due to vacations. If that's the case then why isn't AC cancelling flights? Another rumour suggests ATC problems at YYC, but again AC had much fewer cancellations to/from YYC. Yet another rumor suggests they are just cancelling half empty planes where they can easily put passengers on the next flight, because Canadians can't afford to fly and there is too much spare capacity.

Whatever the reason, passengers don't care. We just don't want our flight to be cancelled.

[PittBoss]

It's the after effects of IT outage. Things are back to normal already.

[CaptDukeNukem]

It's the after effects of IT outage. Things are back to normal already.

Outage Did not affect westjet. It may have affected certain airports but again this would not have been only related to WestJet’s flights. Porter got hit hard, and many airlines in the US. Everyone else in Canada was flying

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2024 ... ike-outage

[dontcallmeshirley]

There have been a higher number of book offs than expected. WestJet management has chosen cancellations instead of putting overtime out at 2x (over the standard 1.5x) as allowed for by the new contract.

[daedalusx]

Yet another rumor suggests they are just cancelling half empty planes where they can easily put passengers on the next flight, because Canadians can't afford to fly and there is too much spare capacity.

I’ve had that happen twice in a month … a huge PITA when commuting. Used to be that when you’d see a plane with 50 open seats it was seen as a positive thing, now I see it as “expected it to be cancelled” and oversold flights before and after.

[digits_]

Yet another rumor suggests they are just cancelling half empty planes where they can easily put passengers on the next flight, because Canadians can't afford to fly and there is too much spare capacity.

I’ve had that happen twice in a month … a huge PITA when commuting. Used to be that when you’d see a plane with 50 open seats it was seen as a positive thing, now I see it as “expected it to be cancelled” and oversold flights before and after.

Yikes. If that's actually what's happening then I hope mr Lukacs has a friendly word with WestJet!

[CpnCrunch]

Yikes. If that's actually what's happening then I hope mr Lukacs has a friendly word with WestJet!

Well, it's perfectly within the law, and perhaps it's an unintended consequence of the law. If they can cancel the flight and still get all the passengers to their final destination (or at least most of them) within 3 hours of the originally scheduled time, then the short-term financial benefits outweigh the risks.

The problem is that you serious piss off your customers by doing this, and it takes a long time for customers to get over it, especially if they see that WJ are doing it so often.

[digits_]

Yikes. If that's actually what's happening then I hope mr Lukacs has a friendly word with WestJet!

Well, it's perfectly within the law, and perhaps it's an unintended consequence of the law. If they can cancel the flight and still get all the passengers to their final destination (or at least most of them) within 3 hours of the originally scheduled time, then the short-term financial benefits outweigh the risks.

Perhaps it doesn't meet the threshold for extra compensation based on travel delays, but if there's a pattern of selling tickets on flights that WJ has no intention on executing, it most certainly would be illegal. That's fraud. It would be great to have those practices challenged in court.

[fish4life]

My guess would be the more empty flights with frequency would get canceled if another flight that was closer to full or only goes to a destination with low frequency would have been.

Eg steal the crew / plane that’s supposed to fly between yvr and yyz to operate to the Caribbean. So if everything is going smooth that half full flight goes but if the shit is hitting the fan it will get axed for recovery in other areas.

[Canadaflyer46]

You're assuming WestJet is paying out compensation to the affected passengers. There have been a lot canceled lately because they won't pay pilots double time to come in on their days off, and the union has reminded them again and again the easy solution. Crew cancelations aboslutely fall under "controllable" and are elligable for compensation. WestJet is most likely refusing to pay, just as they refused during the strike. Likely only a small percentage of people will complain enough to get the money owed to them. Just my guess.

[CpnCrunch]

You're assuming WestJet is paying out compensation to the affected passengers. There have been a lot canceled lately because they won't pay pilots double time to come in on their days off, and the union has reminded them again and again the easy solution. Crew cancelations aboslutely fall under "controllable" and are elligable for compensation. WestJet is most likely refusing to pay, just as they refused during the strike. Likely only a small percentage of people will complain enough to get the money owed to them. Just my guess.

As long as the delay is less than 3 hours, there is no compensation if they cancel the flight for whatever reason they want from my understanding. Obviously there may be passengers with missed connections, and that could result in >3 hour delay to final destination. So they are probably either paying out some compensation, or blaming it on ATC/smoke or whatever.

Likely only a small percentage of people will complain enough to get the money owed to them. Just my guess.

I think you're right about that too. Sometimes the only way to get the compensation out of Westjet is to file a claim in the small claims court. It's easy to do, and Westjet simply drags the process but then pays up the full compensation before the court date. Most people can't be bothered doing that.

[CpnCrunch]

Perhaps it doesn't meet the threshold for extra compensation based on travel delays, but if there's a pattern of selling tickets on flights that WJ has no intention on executing, it most certainly would be illegal. That's fraud. It would be great to have those practices challenged in court.

I wouldn't say they are selling tickets with no intention of executing. It sounds like they are just cancelling them when they see that the flights are too empty. Still a dogshit long-term business strategy, but not outright fraudulent.

[digits_]

Perhaps it doesn't meet the threshold for extra compensation based on travel delays, but if there's a pattern of selling tickets on flights that WJ has no intention on executing, it most certainly would be illegal. That's fraud. It would be great to have those practices challenged in court.

I wouldn't say they are selling tickets with no intention of executing. It sounds like they are just cancelling them when they see that the flights are too empty. Still a dogshit long-term business strategy, but not outright fraudulent.

"Invite only 173 friends on your trip and you too can fly on WestJet!"

[CpnCrunch]

Looking at the prices, both AC and WJ are crazy high considering half their planes are empty (if that is to be believed). I have to book 3 tickets for flights in the next week, and it's $700-1000 each direction per person in economy, no matter which airline, just flying half way across Canada. Although there is some weird pricing going on: AC's business class fares are cheaper than economy for aeroplan (but not cash), and WJ is selling business class tickets cheaper than premium economy on the LHR route for some flights in September.

It would be nice to have the option to fly WJ, but it looks like they are still cancelling a huge number of flights today, including ones that would affect my route.

[Turboprops]

Come on guys you really think they're cancelling flights because they’re empty?
The planes have places to go after every flight, I thought this is an aviation site where this goes without saying.
And no flights aren’t empty or half empty, they just don’t want to pay 2x or 2.5x for OT

[Canadaflyer46]

Come on guys you really think they're cancelling flights because they’re empty?
The planes have places to go after every flight, I thought this is an aviation site where this goes without saying.
And no flights aren’t empty or half empty, they just don’t want to pay 2x or 2.5x for OT

Exactly. No one is coming in to fly all night for a low credit redeye pairing for 1.5 times hourly. The company is allowed to increase it to 2.5 but would rather cancel flights and pay out 100 times more in hotels and compensation. Not to mention further degrading whatever is left of our brand. Another wave of canceled redeyes this evening for this reason.

[lostaviator]

You only have to watch the special edition update call after the AME strike to learn they really don’t care about the brand hit caused by flight cancellations. Their words paraphrased - our guests are like goldfish and in their years of executive management, they have learned that everyone forgets and comes back.

[CpnCrunch]

You only have to watch the special edition update call after the AME strike to learn they really don’t care about the brand hit caused by flight cancellations. Their words paraphrased - our guests are like goldfish and in their years of executive management, they have learned that everyone forgets and comes back.

That is true to an extent, and customers will forgive them for strike cancellations. However, when the cancellations are persistent and excessive compared to other companies, customers aren't going to risk it. I just booked a bunch of AC tickets even though I've got Silver WJ status and have the RBC mastercard. I now have an Aeroplan credit card and am not planning on booking a WJ flight any time in the near future. I actually made that decision before the current cancellation mess, due to them removing most YVR flights and watering down the companion voucher to be almost useless due to the bogus "other ATC" fees. I notice my flights have 32in economy legroom vs 29in in the new WJ 737 layout.

I think AC is on the right track, with the recent announcement of free alcoholic drinks and snacks. For a long time AC was the emblem of poor service and hating your customers, but they seem to have realised the error of their ways and passed the shitty airline mantle to WJ.

It's a shame, as I want to like WJ and we need proper competition to AC. I was hopeful the new CEO would improve things, but working for Onex is probably a poisoned chalice.

[braaap Braap]

You only have to watch the special edition update call after the AME strike to learn they really don’t care about the brand hit caused by flight cancellations. Their words paraphrased - our guests are like goldfish and in their years of executive management, they have learned that everyone forgets and comes back.

That is true to an extent, and customers will forgive them for strike cancellations. However, when the cancellations are persistent and excessive compared to other companies, customers aren't going to risk it. I just booked a bunch of AC tickets even though I've got Silver WJ status and have the RBC mastercard. I now have an Aeroplan credit card and am not planning on booking a WJ flight any time in the near future. I actually made that decision before the current cancellation mess, due to them removing most YVR flights and watering down the companion voucher to be almost useless due to the bogus "other ATC" fees. I notice my flights have 32in economy legroom vs 29in in the new WJ 737 layout.

I think AC is on the right track, with the recent announcement of free alcoholic drinks and snacks. For a long time AC was the emblem of poor service and hating your customers, but they seem to have realised the error of their ways and passed the shitty airline mantle to WJ.

It's a shame, as I want to like WJ and we need proper competition to AC. I was hopeful the new CEO would improve things, but working for Onex is probably a poisoned chalice.

realised the error of their ways??? More like Porter is shaking things up and forcing them to compete. Free Wifi on the E2 -> Free messaging for Bell/Aeroplan members. Free Beer and Wine + Premium snacks -> Free Beer and Wine (But only in North America cause Porter hasn't screwed with us to the Caribbean yet). Now you got Westjet trying to play catchup by getting in bed with SpaceX and Telus.

Finally seeing cracks in the Duopoly. Proud to be a part of Porter and seeing the effects of this disruption/competition.

[julcancro]

You only have to watch the special edition update call after the AME strike to learn they really don’t care about the brand hit caused by flight cancellations. Their words paraphrased - our guests are like goldfish and in their years of executive management, they have learned that everyone forgets and comes back.

That is true to an extent, and customers will forgive them for strike cancellations. However, when the cancellations are persistent and excessive compared to other companies, customers aren't going to risk it. I just booked a bunch of AC tickets even though I've got Silver WJ status and have the RBC mastercard. I now have an Aeroplan credit card and am not planning on booking a WJ flight any time in the near future. I actually made that decision before the current cancellation mess, due to them removing most YVR flights and watering down the companion voucher to be almost useless due to the bogus "other ATC" fees. I notice my flights have 32in economy legroom vs 29in in the new WJ 737 layout.

I think AC is on the right track, with the recent announcement of free alcoholic drinks and snacks. For a long time AC was the emblem of poor service and hating your customers, but they seem to have realised the error of their ways and passed the shitty airline mantle to WJ.

It's a shame, as I want to like WJ and we need proper competition to AC. I was hopeful the new CEO would improve things, but working for Onex is probably a poisoned chalice.

realised the error of their ways??? More like Porter is shaking things up and forcing them to compete. Free Wifi on the E2 -> Free messaging for Bell/Aeroplan members. Free Beer and Wine + Premium snacks -> Free Beer and Wine (But only in North America cause Porter hasn't screwed with us to the Caribbean yet). Now you got Westjet trying to play catchup by getting in bed with SpaceX and Telus.

Finally seeing cracks in the Duopoly. Proud to be a part of Porter and seeing the effects of this disruption/competition.

Westjet was already planning for a new wifi provider and free wifi pre pandemic. If anything Porter was playing catch up with all the US carriers, primarily Jetblue.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You only have to watch the special edition update call after the AME strike to learn they really don’t care about the brand hit caused by flight cancellations. Their words paraphrased - our guests are like goldfish and in their years of executive management, they have learned that everyone forgets and comes back.

That is true to an extent, and customers will forgive them for strike cancellations. However, when the cancellations are persistent and excessive compared to other companies, customers aren't going to risk it. I just booked a bunch of AC tickets even though I've got Silver WJ status and have the RBC mastercard. I now have an Aeroplan credit card and am not planning on booking a WJ flight any time in the near future. I actually made that decision before the current cancellation mess, due to them removing most YVR flights and watering down the companion voucher to be almost useless due to the bogus "other ATC" fees. I notice my flights have 32in economy legroom vs 29in in the new WJ 737 layout.

I think AC is on the right track, with the recent announcement of free alcoholic drinks and snacks. For a long time AC was the emblem of poor service and hating your customers, but they seem to have realised the error of their ways and passed the shitty airline mantle to WJ.

It's a shame, as I want to like WJ and we need proper competition to AC. I was hopeful the new CEO would improve things, but working for Onex is probably a poisoned chalice.

realised the error of their ways??? More like Porter is shaking things up and forcing them to compete. Free Wifi on the E2 -> Free messaging for Bell/Aeroplan members. Free Beer and Wine + Premium snacks -> Free Beer and Wine (But only in North America cause Porter hasn't screwed with us to the Caribbean yet). Now you got Westjet trying to play catchup by getting in bed with SpaceX and Telus.

Finally seeing cracks in the Duopoly. Proud to be a part of Porter and seeing the effects of this disruption/competition.

Love this post.

They only doing it cuz porter showing some gains in this market. “Oh shit, better give free drinks!”
“Oh shit, better get faster wifi!”

To think AC and WJ are improving their service out of good will is an absolute joke.

[Flyboy736]

That is true to an extent, and customers will forgive them for strike cancellations. However, when the cancellations are persistent and excessive compared to other companies, customers aren't going to risk it. I just booked a bunch of AC tickets even though I've got Silver WJ status and have the RBC mastercard. I now have an Aeroplan credit card and am not planning on booking a WJ flight any time in the near future. I actually made that decision before the current cancellation mess, due to them removing most YVR flights and watering down the companion voucher to be almost useless due to the bogus "other ATC" fees. I notice my flights have 32in economy legroom vs 29in in the new WJ 737 layout.

I think AC is on the right track, with the recent announcement of free alcoholic drinks and snacks. For a long time AC was the emblem of poor service and hating your customers, but they seem to have realised the error of their ways and passed the shitty airline mantle to WJ.

It's a shame, as I want to like WJ and we need proper competition to AC. I was hopeful the new CEO would improve things, but working for Onex is probably a poisoned chalice.

realised the error of their ways??? More like Porter is shaking things up and forcing them to compete. Free Wifi on the E2 -> Free messaging for Bell/Aeroplan members. Free Beer and Wine + Premium snacks -> Free Beer and Wine (But only in North America cause Porter hasn't screwed with us to the Caribbean yet). Now you got Westjet trying to play catchup by getting in bed with SpaceX and Telus.

Finally seeing cracks in the Duopoly. Proud to be a part of Porter and seeing the effects of this disruption/competition.

Westjet was already planning for a new wifi provider and free wifi pre pandemic. If anything Porter was playing catch up with all the US carriers, primarily Jetblue.

Where they planning free texting like AC and then had to pony up to match Porter's full WIFI?

[cdnavater]

That is true to an extent, and customers will forgive them for strike cancellations. However, when the cancellations are persistent and excessive compared to other companies, customers aren't going to risk it. I just booked a bunch of AC tickets even though I've got Silver WJ status and have the RBC mastercard. I now have an Aeroplan credit card and am not planning on booking a WJ flight any time in the near future. I actually made that decision before the current cancellation mess, due to them removing most YVR flights and watering down the companion voucher to be almost useless due to the bogus "other ATC" fees. I notice my flights have 32in economy legroom vs 29in in the new WJ 737 layout.

I think AC is on the right track, with the recent announcement of free alcoholic drinks and snacks. For a long time AC was the emblem of poor service and hating your customers, but they seem to have realised the error of their ways and passed the shitty airline mantle to WJ.

It's a shame, as I want to like WJ and we need proper competition to AC. I was hopeful the new CEO would improve things, but working for Onex is probably a poisoned chalice.

realised the error of their ways??? More like Porter is shaking things up and forcing them to compete. Free Wifi on the E2 -> Free messaging for Bell/Aeroplan members. Free Beer and Wine + Premium snacks -> Free Beer and Wine (But only in North America cause Porter hasn't screwed with us to the Caribbean yet). Now you got Westjet trying to play catchup by getting in bed with SpaceX and Telus.

Finally seeing cracks in the Duopoly. Proud to be a part of Porter and seeing the effects of this disruption/competition.

Love this post.

They only doing it cuz porter showing some gains in this market. “Oh shit, better give free drinks!”
“Oh shit, better get faster wifi!”

To think AC and WJ are improving their service out of good will is an absolute joke.

And what, Porter is just generous? Porter is trying to stand out and free stuff is how they are doing it, if they thought they could gain market share without that they would do it, cost is king and free stuff is anti revenue

[goingnowherefast]

There's tangible revenue like charging for carry-on bags, picking a seat, checked bags, wifi, booze, etc. Flair is going with the charge-for-everything model. How's that working out for them?

Then there's intangible revenue with lots of "free" perks. No, they're not actually free, it's just included in the ticket price. Carry-on bags, booze, wifi, etc.

The free market is deciding which one is preferred by customers. So far it appears that customers don't like being nickel-and-dime'd. Word spreads and buddy that got dinged $69 (price on Flair's website) at the gate for a carry-on bag isn't happy, and shares his negative experience. Another person gets a free beer, and shares his positive experience.

Suddenly that $2 beer brings in $100 in revenue from additional future sales. The $70 carry-on bag is the last revenue from that person, and the 4 others that the story got shared with.

Intangible revenue is impossible to put into a spreadsheet. It's a hard pill to swallow for shareholders who see the bill for "free wifi" in their annual shareholders report.

Porter is trying to stand out and free stuff is how they are doing it, if they thought they could gain market share without that they would do it, cost is king and free stuff is anti revenue

So, no. It isn't "anti-revenue". It's a gamble to bring in even more revenue in the future. Nothing is over till it's over, but so far it seems to be working for Porter.

[cdnavater]

There's tangible revenue like charging for carry-on bags, picking a seat, checked bags, wifi, booze, etc. Flair is going with the charge-for-everything model. How's that working out for them?

Then there's intangible revenue with lots of "free" perks. No, they're not actually free, it's just included in the ticket price. Carry-on bags, booze, wifi, etc.

The free market is deciding which one is preferred by customers. So far it appears that customers don't like being nickel-and-dime'd. Word spreads and buddy that got dinged $69 (price on Flair's website) at the gate for a carry-on bag isn't happy, and shares his negative experience. Another person gets a free beer, and shares his positive experience.

Suddenly that $2 beer brings in $100 in revenue from additional future sales. The $70 carry-on bag is the last revenue from that person, and the 4 others that the story got shared with.

Intangible revenue is impossible to put into a spreadsheet. It's a hard pill to swallow for shareholders who see the bill for "free wifi" in their annual shareholders report.

Porter is trying to stand out and free stuff is how they are doing it, if they thought they could gain market share without that they would do it, cost is king and free stuff is anti revenue

So, no. It isn't "anti-revenue". It's a gamble to bring in even more revenue in the future. Nothing is over till it's over, but so far it seems to be working for Porter.

I get it but those same customers will take a cheaper flight, compared to a similar service but without the free beer or wifi, is Porter gaining some market share from WJ and AC, obviously, they are only so many new travellers to go around, the rest come from someone looking to try something new.
I guarantee if Porter is consistently 100 more than WJ or AC, those customers will chose them and rationalize that they can go a few hours without beer or internet.
So, my point, I believe I was trying to make, is this free stuff costs money and gives a market advantage to those not giving it away, on the routes Porter flies competing with the others, I’m sure they are matching the airfare and they are paying a decent wage to the pilots so, again I say, cost is king.