"Fly there yourself" vacations

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:06 pm

As I get ready to start training for my PPL, I'm wondering:

Are long distance "fly there yourself" vacations a realistic concept?

I mean aside from the plane rental cost.

Say I wanted to go to Florida, or California or B.C. for a week's vacation. Is flying myself there a viable option? Or would it be too taxing/tiring? (I admit I have no idea of the flying times in a small plane.)

How about places like Mexico, Bermuda or the Carib?

Or are there logistics and other things I don't know about that would make this a ridiculous idea?

For the sake of discussion, let's suppose I'm renting a C-172.

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:21 pm

Fly that 172 down to Loreto in Mexico. Pay a kid $5 a day to keep an eye on it, and enjoy your time at the beach!! Count on two long days to get there (from here, anyways) and about 30 hours flying. However, the trouble with fly your own vacations is that normally the cost is prohibitive. As you've stated by way of reasons for pursuing a RPP rather than a PPL, your pockets are not overflowing. Hop on a charter.

Wadd · Post by **Wadd** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:28 pm

Yes you can do trips to florida and such, but as soon as you start planning to do one you'll realize very quickly it's much safer/cheaper/quicker to go commercially. I don't want to stomp on your idea of doing those trips, because a number of pilots do make these kind of trips, but it'd be a 4-12 hour trip from anywhere in canada to anywhere you'd like to go (depending on your location) down south, and then making that trip back you'd be looking at $2000 in most cases in just rental costs (there and back) plus the cost of fuel. You could get yourself and significant other a weeks vacation in an all inclusive resort for that much including air fare.

As for the trips to the carribbean, you're a very brave soul if you're going to be flying a light(unpressurized) single accross that much water.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:36 pm

Several (Okay, many) years ago, I rented an Arrow in YYZ and flew to the Bahamas. Two stops south-bound. Crossed into the Bahamas from PBI. Headed south from Nassau to Spanish Wells. I have NEVER had a better time in an airplane!! With all the guys out there wanting to build time, I dont know why more of you dont do this! I think I put in about 25 hours total in the trip....flights into two foriegn countries!
If you do a trip like this, take plenty of pics...and attach them to your log book! You will thank me after your first interview......the guys interviewing you will really get a hoot out of the photos!
But, by all means GO!!!!!
Take your passport, make sure your licence and medical are up to date. Take sunglasses and sunscreen!!! But GO!!!

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:47 pm

Wadd....of course it's cheaper on the airlines! And that would teach you, what? You could even save more, and go by bus! But it floors me how many guys need to build time.......then spend it flying around YYZ, or YVR, YOW or where ever.....back and forth, like a yoyo. Pack your bags and go fly SOMEPLACE you've never been before!
BTW, the overwater section between PBI and Bimini is like YYZ-ROC!

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:56 pm

Wadd wrote:Yes you can do trips to florida and such, but as soon as you start planning to do one you'll realize very quickly it's much safer/cheaper/quicker to go commercially. I don't want to stomp on your idea of doing those trips, because a number of pilots do make these kind of trips, but it'd be a 4-12 hour trip from anywhere in canada to anywhere you'd like to go (depending on your location) down south, and then making that trip back you'd be looking at $2000 in most cases in just rental costs (there and back) plus the cost of fuel. You could get yourself and significant other a weeks vacation in an all inclusive resort for that much including air fare.

As for the trips to the carribbean, you're a very brave soul if you're going to be flying a light(unpressurized) single accross that much water.

I did say "cost regardless", meaning that I assume planning the flight cost ahead of time.

My question is more like: is this a responsible thing to consider? Or is it too tiring or too complicated re flying through so much air space, contacting so many ground points, etc.

I don't know.

I am an old fashioned person when it comes to travel. I do believe in Cunard's old slogan "getting there is half the fun". So this kind of thing would seem to me to be enormous fun.

Sitting in a jet 45,000 feet up is, to me, boring. And these days, with the way they jam people into seats and the pitch between rows is so small, it's bloody uncomfortable. Unless you're in business class or First.

But not knowing the true ins-and-outs, I don't know if it would be more work than fun.

I do realize that flying over the Rockies would require some real skill.

As for flying over an expanse of water to, say, Bermuda, or the Carib, I don't know what diff it would make to do it in an unpressurized plane.

Just asking.

Oh, and since I'm just looking to be a recreational pilot, I don't think building time matters to me, does it?

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:04 pm

Airtids wrote:Fly that 172 down to Loreto in Mexico. Pay a kid $5 a day to keep an eye on it, and enjoy your time at the beach!! Count on two long days to get there (from here, anyways) and about 30 hours flying. However, the trouble with fly your own vacations is that normally the cost is prohibitive. As you've stated by way of reasons for pursuing a RPP rather than a PPL, your pockets are not overflowing. Hop on a charter.

Sorry, you misunderstood. I'm spreading my training over two steps (rec, then ppl) only because of current personal budget restraints.

mikegtzg · Post by **mikegtzg** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:16 pm

Flying a 'real' cross country is a blast. Especially recreationally. assuming you enjoy the actual flying. Some pilots I know are in a rush and try to fly like 8 hours in a day. Thats a lot of work and not quite as much fun as leisurely flying a few hours, hanging around for lunch, then back in for a few more hours. Sure it takes longer, but you do meet and see some interesting people, aircraft, and communities.
Forced to stay somewhere a day or two for weather is part of the experience. It's definately more expensive, time consuming and inconvienient. Above all though, it will likely be one of your most rewarding flying experiences.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:28 pm

So, what's a reasonable, enjoyable amount of flying in a day? Again assuming a C-172. Is that even a reasonable aircraft to consider?

I've driven car cross-country at 12 hours a day. That was a bitch done only because of time pressures. I've driven 8 hours. That was tiring, but ok.

mikegtzg · Post by **mikegtzg** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:36 pm

Most recreational pilots that I know like to have a break after 2-3 hours. After this period of time you really want to stretch your legs, and visit the 'office'. It's suppossed to be fun...isn't it.
It does require much more attention than barrelling down the highway in your car. (this may not be true on the #401..LOL) I have driven 12-13 hours in a day and wouldn't even consider flying for that length of time.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:41 pm

mikegtzg wrote:Most recreational pilots that I know like to have a break after 2-3 hours. After this period of time you really want to stretch your legs, and visit the 'office'. It's suppossed to be fun...isn't it.
It does require much more attention than barrelling down the highway in your car. (this may not be true on the #401..LOL) I have driven 12-13 hours in a day and wouldn't even consider flying for that length of time.

LOL. Not counting the 401.

I've driven x-country from Seattle to Toronto.

Does flying from Seattle to Toronto require much more attention than driving it? I suspect yes.

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:05 pm

Toronto Guy,

Just be aware that until you get the PPL out of the way you cannot cross the border. RPP is not recognized anywhere but Canadian airspace.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:28 pm

sakism wrote:Toronto Guy,

Just be aware that until you get the PPL out of the way you cannot cross the border. RPP is not recognized anywhere but Canadian airspace.

Thanks. Yup, I'm aware of that.

Now the scary thing (to a lot of posters here). I could with the RPP fly from Toronto to Victoria, B.C.

Frankly, it kind of scares me that someone with just that training could do the mountains.

Personally, I would not attempt the Rockies without a helluvalot more than just a RPP!

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:36 pm

Sorry, missed the part about money being no object, and no, I totally understood your rationale for splitting your training into two steps. All that being said, by all means, make the trip on your own. In my mind the further and more exotic the destination, the better.
Be aware of certain gaps in your experience (mountain flight, overwater, prairies can be trouble navigating believe it or not) and be proactive about addressing those gaps before you get into trouble. Even better, use your desire to get better training as an excuse for a holiday. Just ask mikegtzg (getting excited yet!?

), he's doing the right thing: http://www.highalpineair.com.
The point of pressurization over big stretches of water is to be able to get altitude enroute to get further in case of a problem. Air Transat anyone?
And whatever you do, remember to have fun. Probably don't need to remind you as you are a rec pilot. Many of us here are envious.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:14 pm

Airtids wrote: And whatever you do, remember to have fun. Probably don't need to remind you as you are a rec pilot. Many of us here are envious.

Well, exactly. Sunday afternoons for my grandfather and his kids up in the Wacco in the 1930s, or me up in a 172 for a Sunday afternoon.

Driving, skiing, flying, whatever. If there's no joy in doing it, well....

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:25 pm

When I did my Bahamas trip in the Arrow, one thing that sticks with me is the ease with which the miles went by. We stopped for fuel in RDU, then spent a couple of hours in SAV, and made Vero Beach the same day for a great dinner, and a bottle of good wine at the Driftwood Inn. But, I think that's the trick. Go at your own pace, and take time to smell the flowers.
I didn't really "plan" the trip. Just got into the airplane and headed south. Bought the charts we'd need to go south of RDU when we landed there. Unfolded the map on the next leg...and off we went!

mikegtzg · Post by **mikegtzg** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:45 pm

Toronto Guy wrote:

Personally, I would not attempt the Rockies without a helluvalot more than just a RPP!

Wouldn't this same statement hold true for almost any pilot with limited experience under a certain condition. Sure when weather conditions are perfect, and no navigation errors are committed it is just another flight. One link in the chain goes astray, and that's when additional training hopefully kicks in.

Today I had a similar conversation with a retired AC pilot who at one time flew Northstars regularily over the Rockies. This 18,000hr. pilot never flew low level threw the mountains. And corroborated on the topic of taking Mountain training if he was to fly his antique ragwing taildragger in those conditions.

Since we are in this activity for our own recreation, fun, personal development, or whatever. We have the ability to pick the level we are comfortable with. If the prospect of taking a 2,000NM cross country makes us nervous. We can press on regardless foolhardy. Improve our skills to a level that this no longer is intimidating. Or travel another way.

Basically what I am trying to say is you indicated that you have just started training. Your limits and comfort levels are going to constantly change, and direct your cross country flight to them at the time. If Toronto to Seattle sounds tough, maybe Toronto-Winnipeg and airline to Seattle.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:45 pm

Doc wrote: But, I think that's the trick. Go at your own pace, and take time to smell the flowers.

Exactly, to my mind. Again, to quote, "Getting there is half the fun!"

These days we are so damn obsessed with "gotta get there, gotta enjoy, gotta get back".

I recall my Dad telling me how much he enjoyed cross-country USA train trips vs flying the same distance. On the train he got to meet people and see things.

Even if it ends up being something for my retirement years, I think having a PPL and using it will give me more than all the Air Canada trips I could take to the same destinations.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:49 pm

mikegtzg wrote:Toronto Guy wrote:
Personally, I would not attempt the Rockies without a helluvalot more than just a RPP!
Wouldn't this same statement hold true for almost any pilot with limited experience under a certain condition. Sure when weather conditions are perfect, and no navigation errors are committed it is just another flight. One link in the chain goes astray, and that's when additional training hopefully kicks in.

Today I had a similar conversation with a retired AC pilot who at one time flew Northstars regularily over the Rockies. This 18,000hr. pilot never flew low level threw the mountains. And corroborated on the topic of taking Mountain training if he was to fly his antique ragwing taildragger in those conditions.

Since we are in this activity for our own recreation, fun, personal development, or whatever. We have the ability to pick the level we are comfortable with. If the prospect of taking a 2,000NM cross country makes us nervous. We can press on regardless foolhardy. Improve our skills to a level that this no longer is intimidating. Or travel another way.

Basically what I am trying to say is you indicated that you have just started training. Your limits and comfort levels are going to constantly change, and direct your cross country flight to them at the time. If Toronto to Seattle sounds tough, maybe Toronto-Winnipeg and airline to Seattle.

I'm just dreaming and asking questions about what's realistic.

Cheers and thanks for your comments! Much appreciated, as are all.

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:19 pm

I've done Florida from Ontario- 13 hrs there, 13 back- headwind both ways (5 day stop). Make sure- before you go- that you know how to deal with weather- doing a real cross country will really test your judgement when it comes to making calls on wx.

Otherwise, it's a total blast- Doc said it best.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:02 pm

If you're working on your commercial license, extending that 300nm to 1500nm each way can be a really good way to build time and learn/practice a lot of things from the training. There won't be an instructor looking over your shoulder for flight planning, nav, maps, radios, weather, go/no go and everything will be in unfamiliar places. If you can grab a friend who's also working on their CPL, even better. You'll get a chance to practice some real CRM and split the hotels and bar tabs.

Some limiting factors might be school's policy for hours/day, hours between inspections, max rental periods, seasonal weather etc.

You're paying for the hours anyway and you will learn much much more than doing the local milk run another 5 times or practicing upper air work in the practice area.

Some of my favourite spots: Mt. Rushmore, North Vegas, Reno, Grand Canyon, Santa Fe, Roswell, Moses Lake + all those podunk towns in North Texas. The self-fly holiday is more like doing a road trip than flying commercial, most of the fun is getting there!

Edit: Pack something fun for the customs guy to discover when he pulls your bags+A/C apart in the middle of the ramp. Buddy had a few dozen condoms, the inspection stopped there.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:36 pm

Just make sure you fit the "john smith" and not the "abdul" profile.

2 cents.

Cap'n P8 · Post by **Cap'n P8** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:45 pm

Go for it! It will be the most fun you will have in an airplane...okay maybe the second most (5280').

From my experiences, I have two suggestions. First, buy a VFR/IFR planning chart. It will make flight planning a breeze. Second, take advantage of VFR flight following. The whole of the contiguous US is covered by radar and most of the time they are happy to help you out.

And one more that is more necessary these days, know exactly where any TFR's/restriced airspace is and stay out of it!

Happy flying!!!

Guido · Post by **Guido** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:50 pm

TorontoGuy wrote:So, what's a reasonable, enjoyable amount of flying in a day? Again assuming a C-172. Is that even a reasonable aircraft to consider?

I've driven car cross-country at 12 hours a day. That was a bitch done only because of time pressures. I've driven 8 hours. That was tiring, but ok.

Enjoyable? As much as you can handle! Once you've got more experience flying, you'll learn your own limits.

A 172 would probably be a joy to fly on a long x-country.

The longest one I ever did was from here (Sarnia, ON) to Charlottetown, PEI and back. I believe the entire trip came to about 26 hours over three days. I was flying with my instructor so that we could do some instrument time that I'd needed to get done (under the hood), but other than that we treated eachother as equals, so it was like flying with a regular buddy.
26 hours in a 150 will make you friends with anyone... either that or you'll shove 'em out in the next bout of turbulence. We had a great time on that trip, doing about 9 hours each day, taking turns. This was during my commercial training, so I'd been flying a lot before that, and looked forward to the challenge. But it definitely helped to have another pilot there so that while one was flying, the other could nap (as best you can in a 150...).

I've yet to fly down to the south very far, but I would think the experience would be much the same.

TheCheez · Post by **TheCheez** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:22 pm

cyyz wrote:Just make sure you fit the "john smith" and not the "abdul" profile.

2 cents.

3 young guys in a light single engine, they were looking for pot not bombs, and were quite thorough(not THAT thorough).