Summer Ground School

[Inverted2]

Can hire first officers till they’re blue in the face but there’s no one that wants/has the experience/can pass the upgrade and direct entry Captain is a non starter at the current pay rate.

Hi, can you elaborate on your comment? I’m curious why first officers are no longer being upgraded.

Most of the new hires have less than 1000 hours or only instructing time. They are still being upgraded but most don’t have the experience or ATPL.

[crystalpizza]

Can hire first officers till they’re blue in the face but there’s no one that wants/has the experience/can pass the upgrade and direct entry Captain is a non starter at the current pay rate.

Hi, can you elaborate on your comment? I’m curious why first officers are no longer being upgraded.

And those who do have the time and ATPL don't upgrade cause there's absolutely no point to doing it and it is a complete waste of time for those using Jazz as a stepping stone to leave and secure seniority at one of the majors. Starting CA pay is mediocre and in some cases on par or less than FO pay at the majors, command time on an RJ hardly makes a difference for marketability to other airlines in Canada at least in recent years. Hell, it's even been a hindrance in recent years for those trying to flow to AC cause they didn't want to deplete their Jazz captains.

Plus it's just a shitty job with too much risk. No one wants to command the worst modern airliner in existence (RJ) doing 5 AM check ins and 4-5 leg days in a chaotic operation full of delays flying into DCA with a low time college hire FO. One thing goes wrong (and there's way too much that can) and your career's over.

[Full Ins]

Sounds like a lot of excuses. How are you going to be a captain at AC with no command time with 5am reports with new hires if you can’t (won’t) do it at Jazz. Time in the left seat is the only way you’ll get that professional development.

[Hysteria]

Sounds like a lot of excuses. How are you going to be a captain at AC with no command time with 5am reports with new hires if you can’t (won’t) do it at Jazz. Time in the left seat is the only way you’ll get that professional development.

Good luck telling people how to conduct their careers. I wouldn’t upgrade at Jazz either given all the intel. Most Jazz FOs are hopping to WJ or elsewhere.. thereafter is better QOL. You build tons of experience and when you finally upgrade, you have 10+ years of 705 experience. (If WJ of course).

[Full Ins]

Not telling anyone how to do anything. Just heard through the grapevine AC is having a trend toward higher captain upgrade failures. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that candidates with absolutely no pic time are having a hard time upgrading. It’s not all about flying. Some people
Just have no concept on leading a team of multiple
Crew members.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Upgrading at any airline takes experience that isn’t counted in decimal values. And most companies try to teach this with a 3 day command course. But having those hours with decimal values means you probably have seen a day go bad or off the rails, or have to make your own decisions (medicals, failures, etc ) They go hand in hand. Which is lacking at the upgrade level. Hence the failures.

[CADPilot]

I received an email saying that the anticipated class dates have been extended out by several months.

Who knows....

Oh really?

My friend is starting in August. He was in pool almost 6-7 months.

Did anyone get a call recently? I've applied 3 months ago and still no sign. I keep updating my application every 2-3 weeks with flight hours. Can't wait to have that first call

[KN84]

I received an email saying that the anticipated class dates have been extended out by several months.

Who knows....

Oh really?

My friend is starting in August. He was in pool almost 6-7 months.

Did anyone get a call recently? I've applied 3 months ago and still no sign. I keep updating my application every 2-3 weeks with flight hours. Can't wait to have that first call

Hi, what type of experience and hours?

[Avi8erN8]

I received an email saying that the anticipated class dates have been extended out by several months.

Who knows....

Oh really?

My friend is starting in August. He was in pool almost 6-7 months.

Did anyone get a call recently? I've applied 3 months ago and still no sign. I keep updating my application every 2-3 weeks with flight hours. Can't wait to have that first call

I applied a few weeks ago and got a call a week later,
Did the interview and got another call a few days later to book the sim for august. I asked about ground school and was told there is a hiring pool/ earliest would be November but more likely early 2025 for ground school.. BTW I have 1000 hrs, 750 of which is on a 1900 (FO)

[CaptDukeNukem]

Oh really?

My friend is starting in August. He was in pool almost 6-7 months.

Did anyone get a call recently? I've applied 3 months ago and still no sign. I keep updating my application every 2-3 weeks with flight hours. Can't wait to have that first call

I applied a few weeks ago and got a call a week later,
Did the interview and got another call a few days later to book the sim for august. I asked about ground school and was told there is a hiring pool/ earliest would be November but more likely early 2025 for ground school.. BTW I have 1000 hrs, 750 of which is on a 1900 (FO)

You guys should really ask how deep the pool is.

[GodlvlPilot]

Jazz's biggest goal (and let's be real challenge) for the summer was to stop hiring to gain a pool of candidates for the fall that could upgrade immediately or in short term.

Was confirmed pretty well by the list that it's weighted to heavily with fos who cannot upgrade, along with will not upgrade for at least 3 to 4 years. One could even argue overstaffed on the fo side with dwindling numbers.

This is especially hard hire for because of the amount of captains jazz is losing in the next few months to ac.

[Me262]

Jazz's biggest goal (and let's be real challenge) for the summer was to stop hiring to gain a pool of candidates for the fall that could upgrade immediately or in short term.

Was confirmed pretty well by the list that it's weighted to heavily with fos who cannot upgrade, along with will not upgrade for at least 3 to 4 years. One could even argue overstaffed on the fo side with dwindling numbers.

This is especially hard hire for because of the amount of captains jazz is losing in the next few months to ac.

How does the company even knows when and who someone can upgrade other than now holding an ATPL (no data on hours and how "close" you are to ATPL). And that means nothing because they could stay FO's for as long as they wish.

[Mône]

From the mouth of the chief pilot east, the company has plenty (too many) low timer FOs. Focus is now on more experienced FOs with the **potential** to upgrade quickly. Even if that means not filling groundschools to capacity.

There is no guarantee anyone will upgrade, but hiring people with 703-704 experience, who already have an ATPL or who are close gives a lot more chances to have captain positions filled sooner.

IMO, the company also has a perception issue to fix regarding upgrades; a lot of people believe it will hinder their chances at getting hired by Air Canada; which is hopefully just a rumor.

[GIVCE!]

The company can ‘focus’ on hiring upgradable candidates all they want. If they don’t pay to attract the right people it will never materialize. Robbing Peter to pay Paul will end soon. It is unsustainable. One way or another. Imo.

[Stable_Approach]

IMO, the company also has a perception issue to fix regarding upgrades; a lot of people believe it will hinder their chances at getting hired by Air Canada; which is hopefully just a rumor.

I too have heard this 'rumor' have spoken to a couple FOs at AC that think they would have flowed to AC sooner had they not upgraded. (4-5 years).

[yhz41]

IMO, the company also has a perception issue to fix regarding upgrades; a lot of people believe it will hinder their chances at getting hired by Air Canada; which is hopefully just a rumor.

I too have heard this 'rumor' have spoken to a couple FOs at AC that think they would have flowed to AC sooner had they not upgraded. (4-5 years).

They're making up conspiracy theories then because last year people were flowing immediately after finishing their captain line indoc. It's actually the opposite, if Jazz knew people were going to flow they held off on the upgrade after they lost so many this way. They had to wait longer to flow because AC wasn't taking the jazz people at all..nothing to do with the seat.

[cdnavater]

IMO, the company also has a perception issue to fix regarding upgrades; a lot of people believe it will hinder their chances at getting hired by Air Canada; which is hopefully just a rumor.

I too have heard this 'rumor' have spoken to a couple FOs at AC that think they would have flowed to AC sooner had they not upgraded. (4-5 years).

They're making up conspiracy theories then because last year people were flowing immediately after finishing their captain line indoc. It's actually the opposite, if Jazz knew people were going to flow they held off on the upgrade after they lost so many this way. They had to wait longer to flow because AC wasn't taking the jazz people at all..nothing to do with the seat.

Yep, I had several last year who received notice they were going in the middle of upgrade training, Jazz finished their training anyway and then the LOU allowing for Jazz to not upgrade any pilot who was “forecast” to go within a certain time period, pay them Captain pay but save on the training. There is no “holding back” and I would a trust that ALPA is watching the seniority of the flowing pilots for correct order

[Turboprops]

I would a trust that ALPA is watching the seniority of the flowing pilots for correct order

So what exactly is Jazz ALPA gonna do if AC doesn’t take Jazz pilots in the “correct order”?
Please don’t say grievance, how’s that 2022 flow grievance going.
After what’s happened in the last couple years, I wouldn’t put it pass AC to intentionally not take Jazz captains

[cdnavater]

I would a trust that ALPA is watching the seniority of the flowing pilots for correct order

So what exactly is Jazz ALPA gonna do if AC doesn’t take Jazz pilots in the “correct order”?
Please don’t say grievance, how’s that 2022 flow grievance going.
After what’s happened in the last couple years, I wouldn’t put it pass AC to intentionally not take Jazz captains

Chill out man, like I said I’m sure they were watching it and if there was out of seniority movement, we would have heard by now!
Whether or not something could have been done is a different question

[yhz41]

I would a trust that ALPA is watching the seniority of the flowing pilots for correct order

So what exactly is Jazz ALPA gonna do if AC doesn’t take Jazz pilots in the “correct order”?
Please don’t say grievance, how’s that 2022 flow grievance going.
After what’s happened in the last couple years, I wouldn’t put it pass AC to intentionally not take Jazz captains

"After what's happened" what does that even mean?

[cdnavater]

I would a trust that ALPA is watching the seniority of the flowing pilots for correct order

So what exactly is Jazz ALPA gonna do if AC doesn’t take Jazz pilots in the “correct order”?
Please don’t say grievance, how’s that 2022 flow grievance going.
After what’s happened in the last couple years, I wouldn’t put it pass AC to intentionally not take Jazz captains

"After what's happened" what does that even mean?

You know, the terms changed after the fact, aka, aviation.
I took a job up North, the job description and housing was not as advertised, I stayed 3 months and moved on to no job. People like to blame everything and everyone else for their lot in life, life is all about choices and the good or bad of those choices. It sucks but to just hold on to the anger is just not healthy.

[CADPilot]

From the mouth of the chief pilot east, the company has plenty (too many) low timer FOs. Focus is now on more experienced FOs with the **potential** to upgrade quickly. Even if that means not filling groundschools to capacity.

There is no guarantee anyone will upgrade, but hiring people with 703-704 experience, who already have an ATPL or who are close gives a lot more chances to have captain positions filled sooner.

IMO, the company also has a perception issue to fix regarding upgrades; a lot of people believe it will hinder their chances at getting hired by Air Canada; which is hopefully just a rumor.

By more experienced what do you mean? TT? Multi-Engine hours? Operations?

[cdnavater]

From the mouth of the chief pilot east, the company has plenty (too many) low timer FOs. Focus is now on more experienced FOs with the **potential** to upgrade quickly. Even if that means not filling groundschools to capacity.

There is no guarantee anyone will upgrade, but hiring people with 703-704 experience, who already have an ATPL or who are close gives a lot more chances to have captain positions filled sooner.

IMO, the company also has a perception issue to fix regarding upgrades; a lot of people believe it will hinder their chances at getting hired by Air Canada; which is hopefully just a rumor.

By more experienced what do you mean? TT? Multi-Engine hours? Operations?

Literally says what he means by more experienced, ATPL or close to it and not flying a c172 around for 1500, they are not ready for upgrade for at least a year and a half. Need people who have been making decisions and getting themselves into a pickle or two with the weather, not bombing around the circuit and training area.

[Dime]

They do also need to fix the upgrade incentive at Jazz.

Plenty of FOs in my situation, where the pay jump/ QOL decrease is not worth upgrading for.

Why would you upgrade and work worse pairings/extra days for only a little more $ especially if you aren’t sure of your future career trajectory.

If I decide to stay at Jazz, I’d stay as an FO until I could slot into a decent position as a CA.

Too many captains have been stuck at the bottom of the list for years as people under the them continuously move on.

They also don’t count your YOS for CA upgrades unless you have your ATPL signed off as an FO. So you could be in Jazz as an FO for 6 years and then go back to year one pay as CA. Little things like this they need to address.( as well as pay of course)

[Full Ins]

Why would you upgrade and work worse pairings/extra days for only a little more $ especially if you aren’t sure of your future career trajectory.

Part of the reason that AC is apparently having a much larger failure rate in captain upgrades. Captain experience is an investment in your skills that can only be attained by going left seat.