Merger Board Order

[Toolowterrain]

File Attached

[W5]

Lots of information in this document. I encourage anyone that is affected to print or download this.

[nohojob]

I agree but the most important part will come once we know how the seniority integration will ne done.

[Airbrake]

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/w ... 0663888415

[Canadaflyer46]

Sounds a great time to be a SWG pilot. I have a feeling the pilots most screwed over by this merger will be the senior FOs at WJ who’ve waited 10-15 years for a left seat.

[ant_321]

Sounds a great time to be a SWG pilot. I have a feeling the pilots most screwed over by this merger will be the senior FOs at WJ who’ve waited 10-15 years for a left seat.

This decision has nothing to do with seat or base protection so time will tell if it’s a great time to be a swg pilot. But yes, from Dec 1 with the new payscale and old CBA with its OT rules it will be a few good months. I’m sure we’ll have guys break $500k in 2025.

[Donald]

This merger has a lot of similarities to the 5T/7F merger.

[nohojob]

This merger has a lot of similarities to the 5T/7F merger.

How did it go?
What happened ?

[sicamore]

Sounds a great time to be a SWG pilot. I have a feeling the pilots most screwed over by this merger will be the senior FOs at WJ who’ve waited 10-15 years for a left seat.

Goes both ways, as a captain forced to return from the sandpit and been here since before Covid, it now looks what was due to be a relatively quick return to the left seat will now never happen before retirement. Career expectations have certainly changed on this side of the fence as well.

[Donald]

This merger has a lot of similarities to the 5T/7F merger.

How did it go?
What happened ?

When the lists were merged:

The younger company with the lower seniority captains had 3 years added to their relative seniority.

Fences were put in.

No bump, no flush.

[Aotearoa]

Per the Westjet MEC podcast, why do westjeters keep missing out on the all the extra deployments and the tax free per diems we get that bumps up our pay quite considerably, in many cases, much more net that we will get with the extra pay at westjet?

I'm glad they have pointed out that one of the side effects of the 'inefficiencies' of Sunwing is quite the considerable work life balance.

I expect that we will be working quite a bit harder coming up, which means more time away from our families. We are not unused to hard work (winters) but the slow summers are a welcome break.

It's not all about the money...

[phenix]

Per the Westjet MEC podcast, why do westjeters keep missing out on the all the extra deployments and the tax free per diems we get that bumps up our pay quite considerably, in many cases, much more net that we will get with the extra pay at westjet?

Did Sunwing pilots ask not to get WestJet pay then? I assume no one forced you to get WestJet pay while still under Sunwing contract

[Aotearoa]

Did Sunwing pilots ask not to get WestJet pay then? I assume no one forced you to get WestJet pay while still under Sunwing contract

I think it was noted in the podcast that the CIRB determined that Sunwing pilots would receive the pay bump in lieu of negotiating another contract that may have been a higher pay rate. So yes technically it might have been forced on the Sunwing pilots.

This information wasn't released, so maybe if you know details feel free to share.

Regardless, I think you missed my original point. The constant message that Sunwing pilots are receiving is 'you guys should be so happy you are getting paid more now that you are going to be WestJet'. While the pay increase is nice, in many cases we will end up taking less home by the end of the year. In other cases most would prefer their current lifestyle over the pay increase. It's just an observation, that's all.

[rudder]

I would have to view it as a disappointment that the ALPA Merger Policy does not apply. Instead the CIRB opted for a very minor ‘carve out’ from that policy as it applies to the single arbitrators terms of reference.

An arbitration panel is more reliable than a single arbitrator.

More proof that going to the CIRB to resolve any dispute generally will not yield a good result.

[fish4life]

This merger has a lot of similarities to the 5T/7F merger.

How did it go?
What happened ?

When the lists were merged:

The younger company with the lower seniority captains had 3 years added to their relative seniority.

Fences were put in.

No bump, no flush.

It had more to do with the fact Canadian North had 3x the number of 737’s to First Air. Not just that they were more junior.

[MaxAuto]

A good portion of Sunwing pilots don't want to deploy anymore as indicated by how many got drafted this summer especially on the captain side. And Yes both parties wanted SW on the WJ pay scale. This merger will suck for all jr and senior SW pilots especially senior trainers. The middle of the pack guys, we'll see.

[pacman007]

I’m still very confused on what WestJet pilots get? 80,000 block hrs means nothing when you add 550 pilots. Seems very one sided at this point. Hopefully arbitration will balance things out.

[ads-b]

I would have to view it as a disappointment that the ALPA Merger Policy does not apply. Instead the CIRB opted for a very minor ‘carve out’ from that policy as it applies to the single arbitrators terms of reference.

An arbitration panel is more reliable than a single arbitrator.

More proof that going to the CIRB to resolve any dispute generally will not yield a good result.

I think the ALPA merge policy is an ok idea but far from ideal. First it’s a policy that isn’t required to be followed. So what’s the point if one side doesn’t want to use it?

Second there’s no weighting on any items. So again what’s the point? An arbitrator or panel could use one item 100% and the rest 0%

Look at this merger. The ALPA carrier wants nothing to do with the ALPA merger policy. Ironic.

So it’s great people sat down and tried to sort out important things in mergers, but….

[Donald]

How did it go?
What happened ?

When the lists were merged:

The younger company with the lower seniority captains had 3 years added to their relative seniority.

Fences were put in.

No bump, no flush.

It had more to do with the fact Canadian North had 3x the number of 737’s to First Air. Not just that they were more junior.

Perhaps, but the emotions were the same as this one. People expecting to get instant upgrades or new bases, at the expense of the other pilot group. Demands of DOH, or even BOTL.

Something all the employees need to remember is that none of you asked for this merger. Don't look at it like an opportunity to advance, at someone's expense. Everyone was at either WJ or SW by choice, knowing what it meant for both lifestyle as well as career progression.

Will the end result suck? Yes. Will people be unhappy? Yes. Will life go on? Yes, so don't let it poison you inside.

[daedalusx]

A good portion of Sunwing pilots don't want to deploy anymore as indicated by how many got drafted this summer especially on the captain side. And Yes both parties wanted SW on the WJ pay scale. This merger will suck for all jr and senior SW pilots especially senior trainers. The middle of the pack guys, we'll see.

The senior SWG FOs are going to get the shaft. Everyone who was about 1 year away from an upgrade can now expect another 5-8+ years.
Doesn’t help that Boeing is dragging their feets on deliveries as well …

[rudder]

I would have to view it as a disappointment that the ALPA Merger Policy does not apply. Instead the CIRB opted for a very minor ‘carve out’ from that policy as it applies to the single arbitrators terms of reference.

An arbitration panel is more reliable than a single arbitrator.

More proof that going to the CIRB to resolve any dispute generally will not yield a good result.

I think the ALPA merge policy is an ok idea but far from ideal. First it’s a policy that isn’t required to be followed. So what’s the point if one side doesn’t want to use it?

Second there’s no weighting on any items. So again what’s the point? An arbitrator or panel could use one item 100% and the rest 0%

Look at this merger. The ALPA carrier wants nothing to do with the ALPA merger policy. Ironic.

So it’s great people sat down and tried to sort out important things in mergers, but….

So, a policy that has worked effectively for the last 5-6 very large seniority list and CBA mergers in the US is “far from ideal”?

I guess that parties will try to create any system that improves their chances at advancing their preferred outcome.

Good luck at the CIRB.

[hank998899]

I would have to view it as a disappointment that the ALPA Merger Policy does not apply. Instead the CIRB opted for a very minor ‘carve out’ from that policy as it applies to the single arbitrators terms of reference.

An arbitration panel is more reliable than a single arbitrator.

More proof that going to the CIRB to resolve any dispute generally will not yield a good result.

I think the ALPA merge policy is an ok idea but far from ideal. First it’s a policy that isn’t required to be followed. So what’s the point if one side doesn’t want to use it?

Second there’s no weighting on any items. So again what’s the point? An arbitrator or panel could use one item 100% and the rest 0%

Look at this merger. The ALPA carrier wants nothing to do with the ALPA merger policy. Ironic.

So it’s great people sat down and tried to sort out important things in mergers, but….

So, a policy that has worked effectively for the last 5-6 very large seniority list and CBA mergers in the US is “far from ideal”?

I guess that parties will try to create any system that improves their chances at advancing their preferred outcome.

Good luck at the CIRB.

I’ve heard that Westjet’s MEC does not want to follow the ALPA merger policy as they initially just wanted Sunwing pilots to be bottom of list, some even wanting Sunwing pilots to be below everyone at Encore. It’s sad because I know that the ALPA merger policy is very fair and a lot of hard work has been put into writing them, including your involvement.

Writing policies is a thankless job but I hope you know that some of us out there appreciate the hard work that you have done in the past.

[Joeschumer]

I’m still very confused on what WestJet pilots get? 80,000 block hrs means nothing when you add 550 pilots. Seems very one sided at this point. Hopefully arbitration will balance things out.

Westjet (employing over 14,000) people was a crippled, primarily domestic/trans border carrier coming out of Covid, they pulled out of the East to focus on their most profitable Western strongpoints.

Sunwing travel group (employing over 17,000), was and is a very profitable albeit smaller pilot group than Westjet. Sunwing continued doing what they do best after COVID which is vacation flying internationally on over 98% of their routes. Sunwing very seldom does domestic and when they did it was in their summer low season. Westjet only shifted their operation and added more international routes after the plan to acquire Sunwing Vacations in 2021.

Since both companies are private we don’t know the exact revenues but we can gather a good idea.

Speaking from a strictly revenue per pilot ratio:
Westjets annual revenue - 5 Billion with around 2300 pilots with encore.
2.2 million per pilot

Sunwings annual revenue - 2 billion with around 500 pilots
4 million per pilot

Obviously these aren’t very accurate but a rough idea that Sunwing is roughly twice as profitable per pilot as Westjet. Why is that? Sunwing has a large amount of money and employees on the hotel side of the business which Westjet has none of. Westjet has very different ventures from Sunwing and Sunwing is not an airline at its core, it’s a Travel group, which apart from Blue Diamond resorts and Nexus, Westjet (Onyx) now owns.

This is what everyone seems to forget. Sunwing airlines only ever existed to deliver the travel group their hotel guests at a cheaper and more controllable way
than wet leases. It was always a necessary evil for the travel group.

What does Sunwing bring to Westjet and their pilots?

- Western Canadian vacation flying will now be over 75% flown by Westjet, eastern nearly 40% and Canada wide the Westjet group will fly over 50% of Canadians down south, that is huge.
- Westjet has 117 737s Sunwing has 18, however brings winter business of 40 737s and a total pilot group enough to operate 33 aircraft. There will be a deficit of at least 7 aircraft and the crew required to operate them when they merge.
- Westjet should gain a 34% increase in winter block hours and only a 25% increase in pilot group size. That should create a defecit of approx. 100 captains and First Officers.
- Almost exclusively high credit legs
- Many more southern layovers
- Larger bases and an addition of at least one major eastern base (YUL)
- Hopefully many lifestyle gains in WJ CA3 with the help of former SWG union members for everyone’s benefit.
- The larger pilot group (Westjet) should gain relative seniority even if the outcome is not DOH
- Greater flying variety and more block hours in the system almost always equals better lifestyle and flexibility due to the sheer size of the bid package.
- The most important may simply be greater profit margins with vacation sales rather than simple airline fares, this will benefit both pilot groups in the merged airline in creating a more stable and consistently profitable company.

[fish4life]

I’m still very confused on what WestJet pilots get? 80,000 block hrs means nothing when you add 550 pilots. Seems very one sided at this point. Hopefully arbitration will balance things out.

Westjet (employing over 14,000) people was a crippled, primarily domestic/trans border carrier coming out of Covid, they pulled out of the East to focus on their most profitable Western strongpoints.

Sunwing travel group (employing over 17,000), was and is a very profitable albeit smaller pilot group than Westjet. Sunwing continued doing what they do best after COVID which is vacation flying internationally on over 98% of their routes. Sunwing very seldom does domestic and when they did it was in their summer low season. Westjet only shifted their operation and added more international routes after the plan to acquire Sunwing Vacations in 2021.

Since both companies are private we don’t know the exact revenues but we can gather a good idea.

Speaking from a strictly revenue per pilot ratio:
Westjets annual revenue - 5 Billion with around 2300 pilots with encore.
2.2 million per pilot

Sunwings annual revenue - 2 billion with around 500 pilots
4 million per pilot

Obviously these aren’t very accurate but a rough idea that Sunwing is roughly twice as profitable per pilot as Westjet. Why is that? Sunwing has a large amount of money and employees on the hotel side of the business which Westjet has none of. Westjet has very different ventures from Sunwing and Sunwing is not an airline at its core, it’s a Travel group, which apart from Blue Diamond resorts and Nexus, Westjet (Onyx) now owns.

This is what everyone seems to forget. Sunwing airlines only ever existed to deliver the travel group their hotel guests at a cheaper and more controllable way
than wet leases. It was always a necessary evil for the travel group.

What does Sunwing bring to Westjet and their pilots?

- Western Canadian vacation flying will now be over 75% flown by Westjet, eastern nearly 40% and Canada wide the Westjet group will fly over 50% of Canadians down south, that is huge.
- Westjet has 117 737s Sunwing has 18, however brings winter business of 40 737s and a total pilot group enough to operate 33 aircraft. There will be a deficit of at least 7 aircraft and the crew required to operate them when they merge.
- Westjet should gain a 34% increase in winter block hours and only a 25% increase in pilot group size. That should create a defecit of approx. 100 captains and First Officers.
- Almost exclusively high credit legs
- Many more southern layovers
- Larger bases and an addition of at least one major eastern base (YUL)
- Hopefully many lifestyle gains in WJ CA3 with the help of former SWG union members for everyone’s benefit.
- The larger pilot group (Westjet) should gain relative seniority even if the outcome is not DOH
- Greater flying variety and more block hours in the system almost always equals better lifestyle and flexibility due to the sheer size of the bid package.
- The most important may simply be greater profit margins with vacation sales rather than simple airline fares, this will benefit both pilot groups in the merged airline in creating a more stable and consistently profitable company.

An electrical company with 10 employees with a revenue of 2 million can be more profitable than a huge company with a revenue of 2 billion. Revenue doesn’t mean profit so comparing the revenue of each company is pointless if you don’t know if either one made money. Also it’s more effective to compare revenue per employee not per segment of employees to speak of an effectiveness and generally less employees per dollar of revenue is more desirable.

[Joeschumer]

I’m still very confused on what WestJet pilots get? 80,000 block hrs means nothing when you add 550 pilots. Seems very one sided at this point. Hopefully arbitration will balance things out.

Westjet (employing over 14,000) people was a crippled, primarily domestic/trans border carrier coming out of Covid, they pulled out of the East to focus on their most profitable Western strongpoints.

Sunwing travel group (employing over 17,000), was and is a very profitable albeit smaller pilot group than Westjet. Sunwing continued doing what they do best after COVID which is vacation flying internationally on over 98% of their routes. Sunwing very seldom does domestic and when they did it was in their summer low season. Westjet only shifted their operation and added more international routes after the plan to acquire Sunwing Vacations in 2021.

Since both companies are private we don’t know the exact revenues but we can gather a good idea.

Speaking from a strictly revenue per pilot ratio:
Westjets annual revenue - 5 Billion with around 2300 pilots with encore.
2.2 million per pilot

Sunwings annual revenue - 2 billion with around 500 pilots
4 million per pilot

Obviously these aren’t very accurate but a rough idea that Sunwing is roughly twice as profitable per pilot as Westjet. Why is that? Sunwing has a large amount of money and employees on the hotel side of the business which Westjet has none of. Westjet has very different ventures from Sunwing and Sunwing is not an airline at its core, it’s a Travel group, which apart from Blue Diamond resorts and Nexus, Westjet (Onyx) now owns.

This is what everyone seems to forget. Sunwing airlines only ever existed to deliver the travel group their hotel guests at a cheaper and more controllable way
than wet leases. It was always a necessary evil for the travel group.

What does Sunwing bring to Westjet and their pilots?

- Western Canadian vacation flying will now be over 75% flown by Westjet, eastern nearly 40% and Canada wide the Westjet group will fly over 50% of Canadians down south, that is huge.
- Westjet has 117 737s Sunwing has 18, however brings winter business of 40 737s and a total pilot group enough to operate 33 aircraft. There will be a deficit of at least 7 aircraft and the crew required to operate them when they merge.
- Westjet should gain a 34% increase in winter block hours and only a 25% increase in pilot group size. That should create a defecit of approx. 100 captains and First Officers.
- Almost exclusively high credit legs
- Many more southern layovers
- Larger bases and an addition of at least one major eastern base (YUL)
- Hopefully many lifestyle gains in WJ CA3 with the help of former SWG union members for everyone’s benefit.
- The larger pilot group (Westjet) should gain relative seniority even if the outcome is not DOH
- Greater flying variety and more block hours in the system almost always equals better lifestyle and flexibility due to the sheer size of the bid package.
- The most important may simply be greater profit margins with vacation sales rather than simple airline fares, this will benefit both pilot groups in the merged airline in creating a more stable and consistently profitable company.

An electrical company with 10 employees with a revenue of 2 million can be more profitable than a huge company with a revenue of 2 billion. Revenue doesn’t mean profit so comparing the revenue of each company is pointless if you don’t know if either one made money. Also it’s more effective to compare revenue per employee not per segment of employees to speak of an effectiveness and generally less employees per dollar of revenue is more desirable.

Hard to find the profits of private companies, however Sunwing was on Profit 100 and Profit 500 lists for over 14 consecutive years…. The point is that Sunwing isn’t airline centric where Westjet is so it’s not apples to apples.