It is imminent.......be ready.

[thepoors]

There are only two ways to “ get this done”

1) The company makes an acceptable offer without a gun to their head. Unlikely and completely in their control.

2) ALPA runs through the hoops required for strike as quickly as possible. It’s a 90 plus day process.

44 days to go. That is as fast as we have control over.



Agreed. 1000%

Understood. Too bad a friendly early extension couldn’t have been negotiated a year ago, when stock prices were higher and demand unlimited. I really think your union F— ed up royally if they didn’t even try. Who is running the shop? RippleChips? Seriously. Now the business cycle has turned.

The below matters. Now it will be a hard slog. They will slaughter you guys in the press as entitled. Its too bad.

viewtopic.php?t=217551

It was attempted.

May 2023. Before we exited the 10 year framework early. The company was asked if they would like to make an offer to keep us in it.

The company's response was they thought 2% and B1 passes were a good deal.

So we pulled out of the framework and tried to negotiate.

July 2023 through Dec 2023. We made proposals to the company with next to nothing coming our way over the table.

Jan 2024. After not negotiating for six months. Zero done. AC makes it clear they are going to apply for conciliation and drive the dispute to a lockout in April 2024.

Mid January 2024. A deal is reached to stave off a lockout in April 2024. ALPA agrees to Mediation with the caveat if AC doesn't negotiate, the deal will be pulled leaving us in a summer strike position. Under that pressure AC begins to negotiate short of the big ticket items. By June 2024, summer is now safe for them, AC tables an offer that is far below our pre bankruptcy wages.

ALPA exits mediation as a result and starts the countdown to strike.

Unfortunately there is only one way to MAKE an employer negotiate, that doesn't want to.

I honestly don't understand how anyone in management thinks this ends well for them.

How can you still be that tone deaf and blind? What are they holding out for? Is it just petulance at this point?

The stock is tanking, performance metrics are terrible, everyone is checked out...now facing a strike that will cripple the country and they're still hammering along with this "world class airline - top 10 in everything we do" bullshit. It's sickening.

[JustaCanadian]

Some Disney employees just negotiated 31 percent raise even after freeland told Canadians to cancel their subscription to afford rent.

AC wanted to offer 2 percent raise and flight passes during this epic round of justinflation? . Management is out of touch. Corporations think Canadians are joking, but I don't see anyone laughing trying to pay thier bills. I don't see a strike being averted without a genuine world class deal. I guess let them play their game, they think it's a bluff an can win a yes vote with 2 percent lol.

[ashtray]

There are only two ways to “ get this done”

1) The company makes an acceptable offer without a gun to their head. Unlikely and completely in their control.

2) ALPA runs through the hoops required for strike as quickly as possible. It’s a 90 plus day process.

44 days to go. That is as fast as we have control over.



Agreed. 1000%

Understood. Too bad a friendly early extension couldn’t have been negotiated a year ago, when stock prices were higher and demand unlimited. I really think your union F— ed up royally if they didn’t even try. Who is running the shop? RippleChips? Seriously. Now the business cycle has turned.

The below matters. Now it will be a hard slog. They will slaughter you guys in the press as entitled. Its too bad.

viewtopic.php?t=217551

It was attempted.

May 2023. Before we exited the 10 year framework early. The company was asked if they would like to make an offer to keep us in it.

The company's response was they thought 2% and B1 passes were a good deal.

So we pulled out of the framework and tried to negotiate.

July 2023 through Dec 2023. We made proposals to the company with next to nothing coming our way over the table.

Jan 2024. After not negotiating for six months. Zero done. AC makes it clear they are going to apply for conciliation and drive the dispute to a lockout in April 2024.

Mid January 2024. A deal is reached to stave off a lockout in April 2024. ALPA agrees to Mediation with the caveat if AC doesn't negotiate, the deal will be pulled leaving us in a summer strike position. Under that pressure AC begins to negotiate short of the big ticket items. By June 2024, summer is now safe for them, AC tables an offer that is far below our pre bankruptcy wages.

ALPA exits mediation as a result and starts the countdown to strike.

Unfortunately there is only one way to MAKE an employer negotiate, that doesn't want to.

"It was attempted.

May 2023. Before we exited the 10 year framework early. The company was asked if they would like to make an offer to keep us in it.

The company's response was they thought 2% and B1 passes were a good deal."

If this is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, the Executives truly F__ked Up.

[rookiepilot]

There are only two ways to “ get this done”

1) The company makes an acceptable offer without a gun to their head. Unlikely and completely in their control.

2) ALPA runs through the hoops required for strike as quickly as possible. It’s a 90 plus day process.

44 days to go. That is as fast as we have control over.



Agreed. 1000%

Understood. Too bad a friendly early extension couldn’t have been negotiated a year ago, when stock prices were higher and demand unlimited. I really think your union F— ed up royally if they didn’t even try. Who is running the shop? RippleChips? Seriously. Now the business cycle has turned.

The below matters. Now it will be a hard slog. They will slaughter you guys in the press as entitled. Its too bad.

viewtopic.php?t=217551

It was attempted.

May 2023. Before we exited the 10 year framework early. The company was asked if they would like to make an offer to keep us in it.

The company's response was they thought 2% and B1 passes were a good deal.

So we pulled out of the framework and tried to negotiate.

July 2023 through Dec 2023. We made proposals to the company with next to nothing coming our way over the table.

Jan 2024. After not negotiating for six months. Zero done. AC makes it clear they are going to apply for conciliation and drive the dispute to a lockout in April 2024.

Mid January 2024. A deal is reached to stave off a lockout in April 2024. ALPA agrees to Mediation with the caveat if AC doesn't negotiate, the deal will be pulled leaving us in a summer strike position. Under that pressure AC begins to negotiate short of the big ticket items. By June 2024, summer is now safe for them, AC tables an offer that is far below our pre bankruptcy wages.

ALPA exits mediation as a result and starts the countdown to strike.

Unfortunately there is only one way to MAKE an employer negotiate, that doesn't want to.

Sorry. That is truly shameful. Frustrating I am sure. You can only do, what you can do. Agree you should strike, just as the AME’s did. You have my support.

[khedrei]

Wow, that escalated quickly.

Amazing how someone can start a post appearing so mature, and supportive and encouraging then so easily can become so childish, making completely false accusations, name calling and just behaving in such a disgusting way. You lost a lot of credibility ripple. Rookie never once claimed to be an AC pilot. He also never told you that you didn't know what you were doing. You accuse him of being angry because he never became an airline pilot. I find that laughable. There is clearly only one person here who is angry. The reason seems to be that you just don't like anyone challenging the idea that AC pilots will get a delta contract. I don't think you will either. Are you going to start calling me names too.

This isn't your forum. People are allowed to disagree with you. He even gave you pretty good evidence of why he believes that.

I also think you should strike, and I hope you get an amazing contract because it will help everyone in the industry. Doesn't mean I agree that the whole "they have it so we should too" is going to be what does it for you.

Take a lesson from fanblade. A mature explanation of how things happened and a good response to rookies previous comments.

I love flying, but I loved it a lot more before it was a job. I'd say rookie did it the right way and made money elsewhere so he could fly for fun. I dont regret doing it the way I did, but I still think it would have been better the way he did it.

Also, I don't think the 1500 hr rule will help much in canada. Not with the majors anyway. In general, they don't really hire under 1500 hours anyway.

[RippleRock]

Wow, that escalated quickly.

Amazing how someone can start a post appearing so mature, and supportive and encouraging then so easily can become so childish, making completely false accusations, name calling and just behaving in such a disgusting way. You lost a lot of credibility ripple. Rookie never once claimed to be an AC pilot. He also never told you that you didn't know what you were doing. You accuse him of being angry because he never became an airline pilot. I find that laughable. There is clearly only one person here who is angry. The reason seems to be that you just don't like anyone challenging the idea that AC pilots will get a delta contract. I don't think you will either. Are you going to start calling me names too.

This isn't your forum. People are allowed to disagree with you. He even gave you pretty good evidence of why he believes that.

I also think you should strike, and I hope you get an amazing contract because it will help everyone in the industry. Doesn't mean I agree that the whole "they have it so we should too" is going to be what does it for you.

Take a lesson from fanblade. A mature explanation of how things happened and a good response to rookies previous comments.

I love flying, but I loved it a lot more before it was a job. I'd say rookie did it the right way and made money elsewhere so he could fly for fun. I dont regret doing it the way I did, but I still think it would have been better the way he did it.

Also, I don't think the 1500 hr rule will help much in canada. Not with the majors anyway. In general, they don't really hire under 1500 hours anyway.

We can disagree.

However, I'ts my right not to like it when someone calls us out for not leaving the Flightdeck to interfere with an incident behind a locked flightdeck door.

Do you know what I'm referring to? Perhaps I over-reacted a bit, but I don't take kindly to the uneducated commenting of the competence of our professionals when they were doing their job exactly as it is written in our ops manual.

It was a regrettable incident, but those who don't know the operating circumstances should just remain quiet. Comment sure, but keep it respectful. Maybe query why they didn't do anything instead of making highly negative insinuations.....especially on a thread that has nothing to do with the topic at all.

Anyway, no one is forcing you to read anything here, but opinions are welcome. If you are still upset, next time note my handle, and avoid the thread altogether.

[rookiepilot]

Wow, that escalated quickly.

Amazing how someone can start a post appearing so mature, and supportive and encouraging then so easily can become so childish, making completely false accusations, name calling and just behaving in such a disgusting way. You lost a lot of credibility ripple. Rookie never once claimed to be an AC pilot. He also never told you that you didn't know what you were doing. You accuse him of being angry because he never became an airline pilot. I find that laughable. There is clearly only one person here who is angry. The reason seems to be that you just don't like anyone challenging the idea that AC pilots will get a delta contract. I don't think you will either. Are you going to start calling me names too.

This isn't your forum. People are allowed to disagree with you. He even gave you pretty good evidence of why he believes that.

I also think you should strike, and I hope you get an amazing contract because it will help everyone in the industry. Doesn't mean I agree that the whole "they have it so we should too" is going to be what does it for you.

Take a lesson from fanblade. A mature explanation of how things happened and a good response to rookies previous comments.

I love flying, but I loved it a lot more before it was a job. I'd say rookie did it the right way and made money elsewhere so he could fly for fun. I dont regret doing it the way I did, but I still think it would have been better the way he did it.

Also, I don't think the 1500 hr rule will help much in canada. Not with the majors anyway. In general, they don't really hire under 1500 hours anyway.

Thank you. I do hope they get a good contract, as I hoped for the AME’s.

[cdnavater]

For context below is a rookie post, this is common, he criticizes AC pilots constantly because a few years back one cut in front of him at the customs line, since then he has a hate on for them. So, his posts regarding AC should be regarded with that in mind!

“Devils advocate — and I support a better deal especially for young pilots starting out.

Why TF should the travelling public GAF about your working conditions, when captains hide in the cockpit and allow stuff like this flight from Morocco to be cancelled , all because of a few buffoons and an FA meltdown over it — 300 people are put out for 2 days.

Instead of taking leadership and fixing the problem.

Answer me and prove you actually care about your Pax, and maybe we’ll care about you for 2 seconds.

This sites posts show nothing but constant derision for your own customers.

—- A member of the travelling public. And a pilot, so skip the BS answers”

[rookiepilot]

For context below is a rookie post, this is common, he criticizes AC pilots constantly because a few years back one cut in front of him at the customs line, since then he has a hate on for them. So, his posts regarding AC should be regarded with that in mind!

“Devils advocate — and I support a better deal especially for young pilots starting out.

Why TF should the travelling public GAF about your working conditions, when captains hide in the cockpit and allow stuff like this flight from Morocco to be cancelled , all because of a few buffoons and an FA meltdown over it — 300 people are put out for 2 days.

Instead of taking leadership and fixing the problem.

Answer me and prove you actually care about your Pax, and maybe we’ll care about you for 2 seconds.

This sites posts show nothing but constant derision for your own customers.

—- A member of the travelling public. And a pilot, so skip the BS answers”

I don’t criticize young pilots starting out.

I don’t criticize FO’s.

Senior Captains, with an arrogant I don’t care attitude to match, yeah I’ll take you out. You make 500 K a year. Expect some criticism when you don’t GAF. Or yeah cut in front of me.

I criticize the arrogant in any industry

[RippleRock]

For context below is a rookie post, this is common, he criticizes AC pilots constantly because a few years back one cut in front of him at the customs line, since then he has a hate on for them. So, his posts regarding AC should be regarded with that in mind!

“Devils advocate — and I support a better deal especially for young pilots starting out.

Why TF should the travelling public GAF about your working conditions, when captains hide in the cockpit and allow stuff like this flight from Morocco to be cancelled , all because of a few buffoons and an FA meltdown over it — 300 people are put out for 2 days.

Instead of taking leadership and fixing the problem.

Answer me and prove you actually care about your Pax, and maybe we’ll care about you for 2 seconds.

This sites posts show nothing but constant derision for your own customers.

—- A member of the travelling public. And a pilot, so skip the BS answers”

I don’t criticize young pilots starting out.

I don’t criticize FO’s.

Senior Captains, with an arrogant I don’t care attitude to match, yeah I’ll take you out. You make 500 K a year. Expect some criticism when you don’t GAF. Or yeah cut in front of me.

I criticize the arrogant in any industry

Rookie, maybe it's time you and I took a break.

I'm going to put myself in "self imposed exile" till the strike is over. It's too easy to get heated. I won't be posting again till then.



I wish everyone the very best! Beware the message! Hold your heads up, make sure your hat is straight and wear your lanyard proudly!!!
I will be right beside you on the line!!!

Cheers to a long awaited victory! Above all......


HOLD the LINE.

[khedrei]

I took his post to be calling it like he sees it. Asking why the public will give a crap about the AC pilots is a legitimate question. Maybe his tone wasn't great, but it's a fair question. Even under the current "terrible conditions" a good chunk of captains at AC make 300k +. And most captains make 200k+. I wouldnt even know what do to do with that kind of money and I feel like I live a pretty good life.

Regarding the part about the captains not coming out of the cockpit, yeah maybe he doesn't know the rules on 705 on when the captain can do something and when he can't. This was just a specific comment on a specific situation. He never claimed to be an AC pilot and it's nonsense to accuse him of doing so.

Tell me again why a captain is worth 4x what an FO is? 30% premium I can see, but you're not selling me on much more than that.

I hope the union uses the FO wages to try and convince the public to be on their side because the company will clearly use the captains. People making 300k asking for 500k in a country where the average wage is 60k will not garner much sympathy.

[Fanblade]

Understood. Too bad a friendly early extension couldn’t have been negotiated a year ago, when stock prices were higher and demand unlimited. I really think your union F— ed up royally if they didn’t even try. Who is running the shop? RippleChips? Seriously. Now the business cycle has turned.

The below matters. Now it will be a hard slog. They will slaughter you guys in the press as entitled. Its too bad.

viewtopic.php?t=217551

It was attempted.

May 2023. Before we exited the 10 year framework early. The company was asked if they would like to make an offer to keep us in it.

The company's response was they thought 2% and B1 passes were a good deal.

So we pulled out of the framework and tried to negotiate.

July 2023 through Dec 2023. We made proposals to the company with next to nothing coming our way over the table.

Jan 2024. After not negotiating for six months. Zero done. AC makes it clear they are going to apply for conciliation and drive the dispute to a lockout in April 2024.

Mid January 2024. A deal is reached to stave off a lockout in April 2024. ALPA agrees to Mediation with the caveat if AC doesn't negotiate, the deal will be pulled leaving us in a summer strike position. Under that pressure AC begins to negotiate short of the big ticket items. By June 2024, summer is now safe for them, AC tables an offer that is far below our pre bankruptcy wages.

ALPA exits mediation as a result and starts the countdown to strike.

Unfortunately there is only one way to MAKE an employer negotiate, that doesn't want to.

"It was attempted.

May 2023. Before we exited the 10 year framework early. The company was asked if they would like to make an offer to keep us in it.

The company's response was they thought 2% and B1 passes were a good deal."

If this is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, the Executives truly F__ked Up.

The last year of the 10 year framework agreement, that we opted out of, provided a 2% raise and B1’s. That is what they were referring to.

IOW no. The company was signalling from the very beginning they had no intention of increasing pilot compensation.

Remember what was happening with other unionized groups leading up to last year.

CUPE had a cost of living clause. AC refused to pay. It was grieved and CUPE lost on language.

The IAMAW’s opener negotiations lasted less than a minute before the company walked out and said they wanted arbitration. Basically abusing the 10 year deal.I’m serious their newsletter stated 40 something seconds.

Between CCAA, the pension crisis, and the Harper Government interference in 2011, AC hasn’t had to negotiate in over 20 years. They are having trouble coming around to the idea that they might actually have to.

Rest assured though. They will leave no stone unturned in their effort to avoid negotiations. You can bet they are pounding on the new labor ministers door.

Only when every possible option to avoid negotiations is exhausted will they get serious with us.

That is what we are dealing with.

[rookiepilot]

I took his post to be calling it like he sees it. Asking why the public will give a crap about the AC pilots is a legitimate question. Maybe his tone wasn't great, but it's a fair question. Even under the current "terrible conditions" a good chunk of captains at AC make 300k +. And most captains make 200k+. I wouldnt even know what do to do with that kind of money and I feel like I live a pretty good life.

Regarding the part about the captains not coming out of the cockpit, yeah maybe he doesn't know the rules on 705 on when the captain can do something and when he can't. This was just a specific comment on a specific situation. He never claimed to be an AC pilot and it's nonsense to accuse him of doing so.

Tell me again why a captain is worth 4x what an FO is? 30% premium I can see, but you're not selling me on much more than that.

I hope the union uses the FO wages to try and convince the public to be on their side because the company will clearly use the captains. People making 300k asking for 500k in a country where the average wage is 60k will not garner much sympathy.

I call it how I see it. Don’t know any other way.

I sincerely hope the senior captains involved in negotiating this new deal are working for the newer FO’s out there and not just for their own pocketbooks.

I don’t know what happened last time but my admittedly uninformed read, I strongly suspect something like that went down. Selling out the newbies. Eating your own young is what its called.

You’re rich. You’ve made it. Help out those starting out.

If you’re here and were part of that last deal, you should be apologizing to those you’ve screwed over, like forever.

[TCAS II]

Not sure many Captains make over $300k without overtime.
In a profession that costs $100,000 for licenses and ratings, where you start out at very low wages, and take a pay cut every time you get hired at a new company… $500k sounds like it might just be enough to cover the debt you created during all those years before “making it” at the end of your career, lol.
Improvements need to be made across the board, and yes, FOs (senior and junior) on all types need a salary increase.

If the general public only knew what the average pilot made, they would be shocked. Pilots at AC have been undervalued for far too long and should be paid far more than they do. They are professionals. Don’t be surprised that it takes a large percentage increase to be at the new current rate for a professional pilot at a major legacy airline. Perhaps 233% would be a good number.

[BTD]

Once again rookie, when you make accusations like the one above it highlights your ignorance about the process we are in and the who behind the scenes.

Our MEC chair is a junior FO. And probably the best leader we have had in a long time. The vice chair is an FO and relative junior pilot on the whole. The MEC is made up of half FO reps from various seniorities.

Our negotiation committee has an Fo and junior captains on it. The idea you have in your head isn’t accurate.

You and I have had it out once or twice before, so I’ll only say, I think you would catch less heat if you posted factual information as opposed to what you perceive to be true. At least in these type of cases.

If the goal is to ruffle feathers then so be it, however, I’ll probably respond only so that others, perhaps junior or up and coming airline pilots aren’t mislead by inaccurate information.

[altiplano]

When it comes down to it, I guess I don't care about public sympathy for the pay rate I am seeking. It's inconsequential. I know I've earned it and then some sacrificing over the last 20+ years fighting through this business. I also know what AC has stolen from us and it's time to collect

Maybe there's a draft whore CA out there without a life making $500K, but I doubt it... most 777 CAs are just cracking $300K, but other WB CAs would have to be taking lots of draft to hit it.

$200K? That's the new $100K. Single earner family, taxes out the ass in and living in some of the highest cost cities, in I've if the most expensive countries - it's not even close. Then there's the personal sacrifice, the health sacrifice, the family sacrifice, everything that is demanded of us to do this job, everything that was demanded just to get to this job - it's not nearly enough. Not to mention the experience needed and the responsibility shouldered when we get in the seat. Then there's the historic remuneration expectation of this profession in this country and around the world - it's time to get it back.

And don't blame me when I cut in line ahead of you at security, I'm at work in my workplace and following the procedure set up by the airport operators and the security infrastructure to do my job. I suggest you address it with them. Tell them that Pilots need less bullshit and easier access to move through the airport. You should be shocked that I have to line up with you at all. Don't you want your pilot focused on the flight and not the bureaucracy?

[altiplano]

I sincerely hope the senior captains involved in negotiating this new deal are working for the newer FO’s out there and not just for their own pocketbooks.

I don’t know what happened last time but my admittedly uninformed read, I strongly suspect something like that went down. Selling out the newbies. Eating your own young is what its called.

You’re rich. You’ve made it. Help out those starting out.

If you’re here and were part of that last deal, you should be apologizing to those you’ve screwed over, like forever.

The last generation did this.

"We don't negotiate for the unborn"
"Don't worry Bill, this isn't going to effect you and me"
etc.

They sold the farm out from under us and pulled up the ladder on their way out.

Position group pay
RP Pay
FO Pay
Flat pay
B-scale
C-scale
5% off NB pay
Pension
Scope
Reserve best fit
PBS Optimizer

On and on I could go.

Now, it's new. Burnt down ACPA. Purged the remnants.

Historic gains, no concessions.

[rookiepilot]

When it comes down to it, I guess I don't care about public sympathy for the pay rate I am seeking. It's inconsequential. I know I've earned it and then some sacrificing over the last 20+ years fighting through this business. I also know what AC has stolen from us and it's time to collect

Maybe there's a draft whore CA out there without a life making $500K, but I doubt it... most 777 CAs are just cracking $300K, but other WB CAs would have to be taking lots of draft to hit it.

$200K? That's the new $100K. Single earner family, taxes out the ass in and living in some of the highest cost cities, in I've if the most expensive countries - it's not even close. Then there's the personal sacrifice, the health sacrifice, the family sacrifice, everything that is demanded of us to do this job, everything that was demanded just to get to this job - it's not nearly enough. Not to mention the experience needed and the responsibility shouldered when we get in the seat. Then there's the historic remuneration expectation of this profession in this country and around the world - it's time to get it back.

And don't blame me when I cut in line ahead of you at security, I'm at work in my workplace and following the procedure set up by the airport operators and the security infrastructure to do my job. I suggest you address it with them. Tell them that Pilots need less bullshit and easier access to move through the airport. You should be shocked that I have to line up with you at all. Don't you want your pilot focused on the flight and not the bureaucracy?

All Fair.

I have heard what happened last time.

I don’t want another Colgan Air. Especially If I am on it. I hope new pilots are better treated, cause human nature to screw each other over? Doesn’t ever change. Doesn’t matter who is on the MEC , people find a way.

I think Canada is worse than the US in that regard, which is the focus of my activity — in Canada in my industry, insider trading is rampant, little guy always gets screwed, a true old boys club. I despise this, and I live here. I am much an American at heart, its gotten so pathetic here. Its why the best and brightest leave.

[khedrei]

I stand corrected. It was the WJ scale that I was looking at when I saw the 300k number.

Still, almost every single wide body captain at AC is making AT LEAST 250k. About 5x what a new FO makes. I will say again, I wouldnt know what to do with that kind of money. I had a good paying job for years, slugged it out on night shift, OT, on call 24/7/365. I worked hard, invested well, and lived within my means. I own planes, cars, multiple properties and have a substantial savings. I never averaged more than 100k, and did a few side gigs here and there. I currently make less than 70k and didn't work for 2 years after covid. I'm under 40, I worked for everything I have and I also live in one of the most expensive areas of the country. Perhaps I spend less than other people? Perhaps anyone finding it hard to live or get ahead on 250k is doing something wrong? Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying the position isn't worth it, I wholeheartly believe that it is, but how about we do a bit more for the FO's coming in at 58k before we worry about the captains "BARELY BREAKING 300k". I almost spit my coffee out when I say that outloud.

I'm glad garnering public sympathy isn't important to you because you are not likely to get it when they find out you make 250k and are looking for a "substantial raise". The number of people in this country living close to poverty is increasing by the day.

Also, if you are at the top of the scale at AC, you did your training 20 years ago and didn't pay anywhere near 100k. I did mine 7 years ago and it was less than that.

Also also, there are other professional degrees that cost close to that. We aren't the only ones that spend a lot of money on training. Granted, they start at higher wages, but to say you still struggle to pay a training debt off while at the top of the AC pay scale isn't totally honest.

[BTD]

I Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying the position isn't worth it, I wholeheartly believe that it is, but how about we do a bit more for the FO's coming in at 58k before we worry about the captains "BARELY BREAKING 300k".

It would appear that you have a skewed view here. Make no mistake this isn’t “ let’s get the guys at the tops a raise and leave the bottom sinking”. This is likely the one time in our career we will be in this position. We as a group are saying, we should be paid what the industry rate is. From top to bottom.

We have the leadership and the unity to do it. We are not paid because of how much money we put into our training, or how long it took us to get here. That is largely irrelevant and it is a bad argument. We need to be paid the standard, because we are in command of a large asset worth hundreds of millions of dollars that moves through space at hundreds of miles per hour with hundreds of lives on board. And when we are sitting in those two front seats it is us who is responsible legally, practically and morally for everything that happens to and on that aircraft with those people. I take that role very seriously as do most of my colleagues. It’s not about being cool or visiting cool destinations. It is about making sure I am the most prepared, knowledgeable and skillful as possible every time the wheels leave the ground. What am I doing to be better tomorrow than I was today.

We owe nothing less to the passengers we have on board, and to the passengers we will have on board in 25 years some who aren’t even born yet. That is the attitude needed and that is the attitude of those we want to attract. The most effective way of attracting that kind of talent is by paying the industry wage from bottom to top. We currently aren’t doing that. We are paying half. Those “best and brightest” will go elsewhere if we don’t fix it.

It is because of the responsibility we have and the revenue we generate as pilots that we need to be on par with our US counterparts. That’s it. That’s the argument.

I will be voting no, if our new hires don’t get what they deserve, even if I my pay triples. As will most of my colleagues. Even if for no other than selfish reasons. I want the best individual sitting to my right, so they can tell me when I’m making a mistake.

[khedrei]

I agree 100% and that is very nice to hear. Very well said BTD. Perhaps you and Fanblade need to take over for Ripple. Your strategy and demeanor is much more effective and on point. People like you can and should be the ones encouraging the lot.

I am rooting for you all, truly.

[altiplano]

I stand corrected. It was the WJ scale that I was looking at when I saw the 300k number.

Still, almost every single wide body captain at AC is making AT LEAST 250k. About 5x what a new FO makes. I will say again, I wouldnt know what to do with that kind of money. I had a good paying job for years, slugged it out on night shift, OT, on call 24/7/365. I worked hard, invested well, and lived within my means. I own planes, cars, multiple properties and have a substantial savings. I never averaged more than 100k, and did a few side gigs here and there. I currently make less than 70k and didn't work for 2 years after covid. I'm under 40, I worked for everything I have and I also live in one of the most expensive areas of the country. Perhaps I spend less than other people? Perhaps anyone finding it hard to live or get ahead on 250k is doing something wrong? Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying the position isn't worth it, I wholeheartly believe that it is, but how about we do a bit more for the FO's coming in at 58k before we worry about the captains "BARELY BREAKING 300k". I almost spit my coffee out when I say that outloud.

I'm glad garnering public sympathy isn't important to you because you are not likely to get it when they find out you make 250k and are looking for a "substantial raise". The number of people in this country living close to poverty is increasing by the day.

Also, if you are at the top of the scale at AC, you did your training 20 years ago and didn't pay anywhere near 100k. I did mine 7 years ago and it was less than that.

Also also, there are other professional degrees that cost close to that. We aren't the only ones that spend a lot of money on training. Granted, they start at higher wages, but to say you still struggle to pay a training debt off while at the top of the AC pay scale isn't totally honest.

It isn't a raise, it's getting back what was taken when we helped the company through multiple crises.

· 9-11
· SARS
· bankruptcy
· pension crisis
· FOS
· COVID19

We have given and given and the executives still line their pockets.

We want back what is ours. Same as every large airline on this continent achieved.

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[flying4dollars]

I took his post to be calling it like he sees it. Asking why the public will give a crap about the AC pilots is a legitimate question. Maybe his tone wasn't great, but it's a fair question. Even under the current "terrible conditions" a good chunk of captains at AC make 300k +. And most captains make 200k+. I wouldnt even know what do to do with that kind of money and I feel like I live a pretty good life.

Regarding the part about the captains not coming out of the cockpit, yeah maybe he doesn't know the rules on 705 on when the captain can do something and when he can't. This was just a specific comment on a specific situation. He never claimed to be an AC pilot and it's nonsense to accuse him of doing so.

Tell me again why a captain is worth 4x what an FO is? 30% premium I can see, but you're not selling me on much more than that.

I hope the union uses the FO wages to try and convince the public to be on their side because the company will clearly use the captains. People making 300k asking for 500k in a country where the average wage is 60k will not garner much sympathy.

You'd be surprised at what people think pilots should make, especially when they know they are signing their life card over to the two (or more) sitting up front. Regardless, what the AC pilot group will get won't be hanging in the balance of what the public think as much as the financial impact of having multi-million dollar assets sitting around without anyone to move them and/or people booking with other airlines so as not to have their travels disrupted. It has already been mentioned here in this thread but most people are fed up with greedy C suites giving themselves ridiculous raises on the backs of its employees. I have spoken to many that think this way. I haven't however met many people who think we are overpaid, especially when they understand what goes into getting them from A to B in a winter storm or over an oceanic flight.

Also your defence of rookie pilot is noble but you should read the tone of his posts, not to mention the very thing you criticized Ripple for; name calling and mud slinging. He wasn't exactly immune to it either, just to keep an even keel here.

[Fanblade]

Tell me again why a captain is worth 4x what an FO is? 30% premium I can see, but you're not selling me on much more than that.

You are comparing a 1st year FO to a year 12 CA.

A 5 year FO makes about 60% of Captain wage. A 12 year FO makes about 68% of Captain wage.

The exception is the first 4 years which have ridiculous low starting pay.

In 2011 First Officer pay was reduced and starting salary was taken from two years to four. We voted no, but had it rammed down our throats by the Harper Government when they removed our right to strike and pushed us into arbitration.

You are 1000% correct, starting salary and FO pay, are a high priority issue to fix.

[khedrei]

I took his post to be calling it like he sees it. Asking why the public will give a crap about the AC pilots is a legitimate question. Maybe his tone wasn't great, but it's a fair question. Even under the current "terrible conditions" a good chunk of captains at AC make 300k +. And most captains make 200k+. I wouldnt even know what do to do with that kind of money and I feel like I live a pretty good life.

Regarding the part about the captains not coming out of the cockpit, yeah maybe he doesn't know the rules on 705 on when the captain can do something and when he can't. This was just a specific comment on a specific situation. He never claimed to be an AC pilot and it's nonsense to accuse him of doing so.

Tell me again why a captain is worth 4x what an FO is? 30% premium I can see, but you're not selling me on much more than that.

I hope the union uses the FO wages to try and convince the public to be on their side because the company will clearly use the captains. People making 300k asking for 500k in a country where the average wage is 60k will not garner much sympathy.

You'd be surprised at what people think pilots should make, especially when they know they are signing their life card over to the two (or more) sitting up front. Regardless, what the AC pilot group will get won't be hanging in the balance of what the public think as much as the financial impact of having multi-million dollar assets sitting around without anyone to move them and/or people booking with other airlines so as not to have their travels disrupted. It has already been mentioned here in this thread but most people are fed up with greedy C suites giving themselves ridiculous raises on the backs of its employees. I have spoken to many that think this way. I haven't however met many people who think we are overpaid, especially when they understand what goes into getting them from A to B in a winter storm or over an oceanic flight.

Also your defence of rookie pilot is noble but you should read the tone of his posts, not to mention the very thing you criticized Ripple for; name calling and mud slinging. He wasn't exactly immune to it either, just to keep an even keel here.

You are correct, he was certainly guilty and I did comment on his tone. I stopped shot of saying they both deserved a time out. However, rookie is consistent and didn't make totally bogus claims about what the other person said. Complete fabrications on ripples part. The name calling on both sides was troubling. The blatent lies (to me) were worse.

Fanblade, you're right, the year 1 to year 12 comparison isn't exactly a good one, but that year 1 FO is still in a pretty serious position especially when the year 12 captain is sleeping on the way to Dubai. Here is a better one. Year 1 WB captain to year 1 WB FO. 4x the salary. Year 1 NB captain to year 1 NB FO 3.75x. You get the picture and we are both in agreement on the same thing. The starting pay is worse than the worst joke. I was not trying to say that year one pay should be be closer to year 12. Well, it should simply because its crap, but not comparatively.