ATC or Pilot, WWYD?

[Robotnik]

30 years old, married and no kids (yet). I am tossed between following a career as a commercial pilot or an IFR controller with NavCanada. My partner is a professional who earns a good salary and is supportive of my switching to either of these professions so long as we stay in the lower mainland (BC), which is a requirement for my partners career.

My commercial pilot training would be paid for without needing student loans. I also have received a standby offer for IFR controller training with NavCanada so both doors are open. Given the above, what would you do? Go IFR controller, or commercial pilot?

[Pratt X 3]

I'd go ATC. Both choices are hurting for people but, for the greater good, we need a properly staffed ATC system before we get even close to needing fully staffed airlines. Already seeing the cracks with staffing restrictions at various airports and airspaces in Canada. Ground stops/delays and entire sectors denying service due to lack of staff. Grumpy, stressed controllers being overworked. All because some managers and accountants can't look past the current numbers and forecast the actual staffing requirements in the future.

[thepoors]

30 years old, married and no kids (yet). I am tossed between following a career as a commercial pilot or an IFR controller with NavCanada. My partner is a professional who earns a good salary and is supportive of my switching to either of these professions so long as we stay in the lower mainland (BC), which is a requirement for my partners career.

My commercial pilot training would be paid for without needing student loans. I also have received a standby offer for IFR controller training with NavCanada so both doors are open. Given the above, what would you do? Go IFR controller, or commercial pilot?

Your requirement to stay in lower mainland BC is going to be the biggest sticking point. For a pilot starting out it certainly is possible that you can secure a job there but no guarantee that you won't have to move elsewhere at some point in your career progression. In fact, it might be a choice between moving and progression. With low time you will have to follow the opportunities as they come.

It also depends what your ultimate goal is as a commercial pilot. For example do you want to fly floats your whole career (BC is certainly a good place to do that) or are you targeting the airlines, or something in between?

I'm not totally familiar with how NavCanada places controllers but I believe you can stay within the FIR you are trained at. I would try to speak to someone in the know about how that works and what the likelihood is you can stay at Vancouver center.

[rigpiggy]

ATC for the pension. I also know at that can pick choose flying jobs due to a sure paycheck

[BerryBlue]

I can offer a bit of insight on ATC seeing as I'm going through the training program myself.

IFR controllers are all located in the same city within their respective FIRs. In your case for BC, that is Vancouver. It is true that most people stay within the FIR they train in, but the class you'd be entering could also be "National", meaning they could also send you to any other FIR. If you get a full offer, I would ask the person that contacts you for clarification on that.
Also good to note that NAV has a contract with CAE in Montreal to provide the basic course. I've heard a lot of people receiveing offers in other FIRs being told to come to Montreal for their basic and then returning for their posting. You'll have to ask and consider if being across the country for a few months is something that is acceptable to you.

[khedrei]

No one else mentioned it so I will.

Keep in mind NavCanada IFR conrollers have about a 10% success rate if you are just off the street. Tower has more success. If you go from tower to IFR down the road you will also be more likely to succeed and if you don't you can always go back to tower. It's also an old boys club so be aware of that.

I would suggest choosing ATC as first choice. Better money, pension, etc. If you don't make it you can start flight training or change fields entirely. Just remember, even if nav can puts you in training, there is no guarantee you finish. If you arent doing as well as they want you to be doing at the time they want you to be doing it, you're out. Flight training is more forgiving and you'll have a much better chance at success.

I'm not saying you can't make it, just go in with open eyes.

Good luck

[Red_Comet]

No one else mentioned it so I will.

Keep in mind NavCanada IFR conrollers have about a 10% success rate if you are just off the street. Tower has more success. If you go from tower to IFR down the road you will also be more likely to succeed and if you don't you can always go back to tower. It's also an old boys club so be aware of that.

I would suggest choosing ATC as first choice. Better money, pension, etc. If you don't make it you can start flight training or change fields entirely. Just remember, even if nav can puts you in training, there is no guarantee you finish. If you arent doing as well as they want you to be doing at the time they want you to be doing it, you're out. Flight training is more forgiving and you'll have a much better chance at success.

I'm not saying you can't make it, just go in with open eyes.

Good luck

...flight training is more forgiving than ATC training? Now I've heard it all...

Not sure where people get this idea, as my experience at a local FTU indicates that very few people are cut out to be pilots. Most students never get the recommend from our Class 1, as instructors rarely recommend students who are likely to fail. This idea that anyone can fly is utterly absurd, and a quick chat with an experienced Class 1 will yield a lot of stories that indicate the contrary.

As for the OPs question, I can't believe no one has said before: go where your passion is. I made this mistake early in life, and am paying for it now. Where have you always dreamed of being? Changing careers from one office job to another (ATC) doesn't make sense to me. I've always known I wanted to be a pilot, and sadly chose to pursue the academic route because I was good at it. Turns out, just because you are good at something doesn't mean you want to sit in an office doing it for the rest of your life. Started flying later in life and immediately felt at home, and massively regret not doing this earlier. Having academic credentials (and even money) doesn't bring fulfillment in the long term. Only doing what you know you are meant to be doing does.

[digits_]

No one else mentioned it so I will.

Keep in mind NavCanada IFR conrollers have about a 10% success rate if you are just off the street. Tower has more success. If you go from tower to IFR down the road you will also be more likely to succeed and if you don't you can always go back to tower. It's also an old boys club so be aware of that.

I would suggest choosing ATC as first choice. Better money, pension, etc. If you don't make it you can start flight training or change fields entirely. Just remember, even if nav can puts you in training, there is no guarantee you finish. If you arent doing as well as they want you to be doing at the time they want you to be doing it, you're out. Flight training is more forgiving and you'll have a much better chance at success.

I'm not saying you can't make it, just go in with open eyes.

Good luck

...flight training is more forgiving than ATC training? Now I've heard it all...

Of course it's more forgiving. As long as you've got money, you can try and pass your flight tests.

Not sure where people get this idea, as my experience at a local FTU indicates that very few people are cut out to be pilots. Most students never get the recommend from our Class 1, as instructors rarely recommend students who are likely to fail. This idea that anyone can fly is utterly absurd, and a quick chat with an experienced Class 1 will yield a lot of stories that indicate the contrary.

Consider yourself lucky. In my experience, the majority of FTUs will not turn paying customers away. It's not fun to teach people to fly when you think they shouldn't.

However, the majority of the students I've encountered did have the capabilities to get their license and most certainly got their recommend for the flight test.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I've done both so I have a unique perspective on your situation. I flew for two 705 operators in Canada (I.e. the "big leagues" of the airline world). I decided to switch to ATC as I was starting a family and wanted to be home more. After accumulating close to 6000 hours of flight time in turbo-props and 737's, I made the jump to ATC in 2014 and it's the best decision I ever made.

ATC Pros:
- I get to see the wife and kids every day.
- If there's an emergency at home (and there have been several), I can just book off and be home in 20 minutes, as opposed to being stuck out of country for several days. The worst was when a close family member of my wife's passed away, and I was stuck on a layover in Regina for 48 hours and couldn't be there for her.
- With our recent new CBA, the pay has greatly improved. While I'll never make as much as an Air Canada 777 captain, I live very comfortably in the top 10% of income earners in Canada, and that's working at a small tower. If I were at a major tower or an IFR controller, I'd be over $250,000 without breaking a sweat.
- The pension is completely company funded and I can look forward to it being there when I retire.
- I work a 5-on, 4-off schedule so I can safely predict my schedule out into infinity if I really wanted to, as opposed to the airline world of not knowing your schedule for the next month until the week before. I already know I'll have Christmas off for the next 3 years just based on that repeating 5-on, 4-off schedule.
- It's easier to stay healthy as an ATC. No more checking into the hotel at 2 AM and trying to find an open McDonald's to get some food before going to bed. No more changing time zones and waking up in a hotel not knowing where you are. I can go for walks on break or just catch up on some Netflix or watch TV as opposed to being stuck in a seat in a metal tube for 8 hours. Less risk of skin cancer due to not being at altitude all the time. The list goes on.

ATC Cons:
- The training is long with no guarantee of success. That being said, if you show promise, the company is getting a lot better at sending you to another location if you're not successful at your first. A great number of controllers got cease-trained at their first location, only to be sent elsewhere and be very successful. I personally know 3 people who were sent to YYZ tower, didn't make it, got sent to a smaller tower and got their licenses and after a few years bid back to YYZ and were successful.
- You may be sent far away from your desired work location and it may take years to get back
- Short staffing has led to abundant overtime, but at my unit it's not mandatory. I can take as much or as little as I like.

The funny thing is I don't even really miss flying. I've gone on a few hops with friends since leaving the flying game, but I don't have a burning desire to get back at the controls. After 6000 hours, I've been there and done that. I do miss the good crews I worked with or the satisfaction of completing a particularly difficult flight (during bad weather, mechanical issues, etc), but the family life and work-life balance are leaps and bounds better as an ATC.

As I've said to others, if aviation is your passion, you'll make more than enough money as an ATC to fly on the side as a hobby. Maybe one day I'll get back at it, but I have other priorities in my life right now. I still keep my CAT 1 medical valid just in case one day I decide to jump back into the cockpit.

Good luck on your choice!

[khedrei]

No one else mentioned it so I will.

Keep in mind NavCanada IFR conrollers have about a 10% success rate if you are just off the street. Tower has more success. If you go from tower to IFR down the road you will also be more likely to succeed and if you don't you can always go back to tower. It's also an old boys club so be aware of that.

I would suggest choosing ATC as first choice. Better money, pension, etc. If you don't make it you can start flight training or change fields entirely. Just remember, even if nav can puts you in training, there is no guarantee you finish. If you arent doing as well as they want you to be doing at the time they want you to be doing it, you're out. Flight training is more forgiving and you'll have a much better chance at success.

I'm not saying you can't make it, just go in with open eyes.

Good luck

...flight training is more forgiving than ATC training? Now I've heard it all...

Yes, it completely is. And I never said lots of people are cut out to be pilots. That being said I do believe more people are cut out to be pilots than ATC.

If you arent ready for a flight test, you don't get the recommend, like you said. At ATC if you arent ready for the eval, you do it anyway. If you don't pass, you get one more shot. Then you're gone.

In flight training you can practice for another week, month, hell 5 years. Then when you are ready you go for the test.

If you have the money, you can practice. Even if you volunteer to train at ATC for free NAV won't necessarily hire you back to try anything again.

So yes, it's WAY more forgiving.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

If you arent ready for a flight test, you don’t get the recommend, like you said. At ATC if you arent ready for the eval, you do it anyway. If you don't pass, you get one more shot. Then you're gone.

In flight training you can practice for another week, month, hell 5 years. Then when you are ready you go for the test.

If you have the money, you can practice. Even if you volunteer to train at ATC for free NAV won't necessarily hire you back to try anything again.

So yes, it's WAY more forgiving.

Jesus man, between this thread and the other NavCanada thread, we get it. You didn’t make it through ATC training and have an axe to grind.

Are there issues with the training program? Sure. Are your ideas of giving an extra 6 months or a year of training to of those who are struggling going to solve it? Not a chance. There are only so many simulators and OJI’s. They have to keep on-boarding new hires and they need the sim too. Nav just can’t delay a course behind you because you’re not making the grade and want more time. There are goalposts to meet, and if you don’t, unfortunately that’s the way it is.

Keep in mind that flight training at a local club or school, they’ll keep taking your money as long as you’re willing to keep paying for training. I had students who took over a year and over 100 hours to get their PPL. I even told them that they were struggling and that they might want to reconsider the whole venture, but they were adamant they would keep paying as long as it took to get over the hump. At Nav, they’re paying YOU for training, plus the added cost of instructors, benefits, pension, etc etc, so yes, they are quicker to pull the plug on you than a flight school would on a struggling student. To put it bluntly, you’re an investment. And if that investment isn’t paying off, the company has every right to cut their losses.

But think of this, the bigger college and university flight programs have goalposts too. Western or Waterloo or the Sault or Confed aren’t going to give you an extra year of flying to see if you can work out your issues. They have students coming in behind you that need those airplanes and instructors. If you don’t meet the threshold, you’re cut. It’s not personal, it’s just the way it is.

So, you can give advice as a jaded trainee who didn’t make it and spout hearsay about failing trainees to protect overtime, or getting cut because you don’t “fit in with the group,” but don’t go giving others bad information because things didn’t work out for you.

[khedrei]

I assure you I have no axe to grind. I didn't make it through training over 5 years ago. I only mentioned things in the two threads that were going because the topic came up. Check my post history haven't brought it up in 5 years. If that's me grinding an axe, you've got a weird way with words.

I'm also not giving any bad information. Everything I said was true, including the part where a working controller told me (to my face) they would not put through a trainee that doesn't fit in. Just cause you don't like the way your old boys club is, doesn't mean it's bad information. Someone thinking of quitting their job should have a good idea of what they are getting into.

Also, 100 hours for a ppl is not that excessive. Since they raised the standards in 2019, the average is around 70ish. I've had plenty of students take 100 hours and go on to become incredible pilots. Good thing they didn't have you discouraging them or telling them to rethink it cause they were struggling at something. That's nonsense.

You can disagree with my opinions/ideas about how training should be, but please don't call me a liar. If you want to give some good info, how about you tell everyone what the ACTUAL success rate is for off the street IFR controllers (first timearound) at your centre. Surely as an active controller you should be able to get that information. I'm sure the OP would like it. For all the accusations, I have yet to see the ATC's challenging me come up with their own numbers on IFR success rates.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Just cause you don't like the way your old boys club is, doesn't mean it's bad information. Someone thinking of quitting their job should have a good idea of what they are getting into.

Sorry, I've only been licensed for a few years so I don't know what this "old boys club" is. In fact, the average seniority at my location is only 8 years, and the average seniority nation-wide is about 10, so this "old boys club" is a thing of the past and is quickly being replaced by the new generation of controllers.

You can disagree with my opinions/ideas about how training should be, but please don't call me a liar. If you want to give some good info, how about you tell everyone what the ACTUAL success rate is for off the street IFR controllers (first timearound) at your centre. Surely as an active controller you should be able to get that information. I'm sure the OP would like it. For all the accusations, I have yet to see the ATC's challenging me come up with their own numbers on IFR success rates.

If you've read my other posts, you'll see that I'm a tower controller, not a centre controller. Therefore I have no idea of the IFR pass rate, nor should I be privy to that information. My only current information is that I have 2 friends who were in IFR generic and have recently passed their evals and are now in specialty training. I don't know how many were on the course and what the success rate was, but at least 2 if not more made it.

I can give you some VFR numbers though, so make of it what you will. For the class before me, my class and the class after me, easily 70% or more of us ended up getting our licenses. Some were sent to YYZ tower right off the bat and only 1 or 2 made it, which is understandable... it's a tough qualification for an ab-initio. For those that didn't make it, ALL were sent to other towers to gain experience, and the success rate was around 90%. You read that right. Of those that started VFR courses, 70% ended up getting their license, and only a few that passed basic didn't end up getting licensed. 90% of us that passed basic either got our license either right away at YYZ, right away at a smaller tower or getting let go from YYZ and then qualifying at another tower. Of those that got their licenses at other towers, several have bid back to YYZ and were successful and are now doing a great job there.

If you show promise and have a good attitude, the company is more than willing to give you a second chance, or more time. Our UQTP (Unit Qualification Training Plan) states "130 days of training, more or less as required." If you are showing progress, we will absolutely give you extra cycles to see if you can get over the last hurdle.

Basic is different though, where you seem to have an issue. There is only so much simulator and instructor capacity. There are courses coming in behind you and they can't hold those courses up just to give you an extra 6 months or a year of simulator as you suggest. I don't know if you are an airline pilot, but during initial training, there are a set number of SIM runs (I can't remember... it's anywhere from 10-15). If you are struggling, you might be given a couple extra runs, but after that, if you're not showing progress, you're cut. It's not personal. It's just business. Once you're flying the line though, there is more leeway for extra training flights, same as more leeway if you make it to OJT. It's a very similar system to Nav and no one complains about that. The only difference is that a pilot going to SIM already has a license and knows how to fly and are just learning a different type of aircraft, so the success rate is understandably higher than an ab-inito controller with no experience.

All of that is to say, I'm sorry you had a bad time during training, and maybe a few bad apples coloured your perceptions of the ATC training process, but as an OJI and THRIVE peer who is mentoring students at other towers and speaking to them regularly, I can say that system has definitely changed for the better.

[‘Bob’]

Just cause you don't like the way your old boys club is, doesn't mean it's bad information. Someone thinking of quitting their job should have a good idea of what they are getting into.

Sorry, I've only been licensed for a few years so I don't know what this "old boys club" is. In fact, the average seniority at my location is only 8 years, and the average seniority nation-wide is about 10, so this "old boys club" is a thing of the past and is quickly being replaced by the new generation of controllers.

Isn’t this the truth…. Just about everywhere.

The “grumpy guys” are becoming an endangered species. Good riddance.