“Pilots are leaving” — ALPA

[Ash Ketchum]

If this contract doesn't meet my expectations I have started planning a career change out of aviation. Will probably just fly as a hobby in that case.

[Dry Guy]

Same here. I've been collecting various certifications and other licenses for the past 6 months. They're surprisingly easy to get compared to an ATPL. Cheap too.

[khedrei]

I did my CN train conductor application today. It's a 7 week paid course with accommodations and meals paid for.

Ask to see the CA. According to my buddy who was an engineer, when you start you're on reserve literally 24/7 until you have seniority for a line. Your time not called is your time off. Your vacation is yours- that it.

I worked there for just shy of 13 years as conductor then engineer. I literally wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It is SOUL KILLING. Horrible company. Horrible job. I had a schedule for about 6-8 months (Called TV'S) of that 13 years. And I talked to a buddy who is still there 6 years after I left, I would have been back on the 24/7 on call list to this day and for a few more years yet.

This thread talks about 2-3 per month being bad. When I was there, CN had 0% retention on some classes of 20 conductors after 1 year of working. Some were 10%. I think 10% was their goal. And this from a job that pays 100k right out of high school with no qualifications. Ill let you do the math on why that might be the case.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I worked there for just shy of 13 years as conductor then engineer. I literally wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It is SOUL KILLING. Horrible company. Horrible job. I had a schedule for about 6-8 months (Called TV'S) of that 13 years. And I talked to a buddy who is still there 6 years after I left, I would have been back on the 24/7 on call list to this day and for a few more years yet.

This thread talks about 2-3 per month being bad. When I was there, CN had 0% retention on some classes of 20 conductors after 1 year of working. Some were 10%. I think 10% was their goal. And this from a job that pays 100k right out of high school with no qualifications. Ill let you do the math on why that might be the case.

Thanks for this, and for your other posts saying how we're only going to get WestJet +5-10% but you hope you're wrong.

[khedrei]

Youre very welcome.

But those posts had nothing to do with each other so I'm not sure what you are thankful for. One was info on another industry, the other was simply my opinion on how I dont think AC pilots will get 100%+ raise.

I never said they haven't been screwed over or that they shouldn't match our brothers and sisters in the US. I simply live in the real world. You know, the world where 30% of this country would still vote for the worst leader in the history of our country and the same one where 87% of WJ pilots voted for NOT a world class Delta style contract.

I hope you guys get lots of huge gains and I hope you all strike and stick it to them. I dont work for AC but if I did I would strike for as long as it takes. I have however worked a union job so I know how it goes. Lots of complaining followed by a yes vote (or arbitration).

[Dias]

I dont work for AC

We know

[Bede]

I worked there for just shy of 13 years as conductor then engineer. I literally wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It is SOUL KILLING. Horrible company. Horrible job. I had a schedule for about 6-8 months (Called TV'S) of that 13 years. And I talked to a buddy who is still there 6 years after I left, I would have been back on the 24/7 on call list to this day and for a few more years yet.

This thread talks about 2-3 per month being bad. When I was there, CN had 0% retention on some classes of 20 conductors after 1 year of working. Some were 10%. I think 10% was their goal. And this from a job that pays 100k right out of high school with no qualifications. Ill let you do the math on why that might be the case.

In case anyone is curious all the labour relations staff at WJ came from CN...

[‘Bob’]

https://youtu.be/DE-YM7HXcpA?si=3lw3rom4KWrqh_82

[FatPilot]

Even the Pilots who are staying have left.
I just do whats necessary now.. couldn't give a crap about hawkeyes or calling to ask where the fuel is.. not my problem.

[khedrei]

Even the Pilots who are staying have left.
I just do whats necessary now.. couldn't give a crap about hawkeyes or calling to ask where the fuel is.. not my problem.

Ah... so you're the reason AC is batting 0 this year for me with on time performance.

[rookiepilot]

Even the Pilots who are staying have left.
I just do whats necessary now.. couldn't give a crap about hawkeyes or calling to ask where the fuel is.. not my problem.

Ah... so you're the reason AC is batting 0 this year for me with on time performance.

Maybe He upset the FA on that Morocco flight that got cancelled LOL.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Yes, without pilots doing other people's jobs delays would be much much longer.

[flying4dollars]

Yes, without pilots doing other people's jobs delays would be much much longer.

Bingo

[rookiepilot]

Yes, without pilots doing other people's jobs delays would be much much longer.

Mmmmm. “Its not my job” plays OK for a union millwright, doesn’t ring so well for a 250K airline captain, but you do you.

[BTD]

Yes, without pilots doing other people's jobs delays would be much much longer.

Mmmmm. “Its not my job” plays OK for a union millwright, doesn’t ring so well for a 250K airline captain, but you do you.

No. It plays well for an airline captain as well. The constant distractions and interruptions affect the safety of the flight. Especially during preflight.

We aren’t talking about grabbing the stroller for a customer that is waiting. Or walking them to a specific part of the airport that they may need help finding or something of that nature. Things of this nature I actually enjoy doing. There were times during Covid the flight crew was allowed to leave to customs but the FAs and passengers were being metered through and would be held on the aircraft. I’d release the FO and hang out on board and see if any kids wanted to come up front while we waited at the gate to be allowed off. I and many others enjoy being part of the magic that we saw as kids ourselves.

The other stuff where someone barges in and interrupts your fmc programming to demand something be done that others and their 100s of managers are responsible for is the problem. It is a safety issue, and very few people realize the number of times that we are doing that stuff before every single flight.

[rookiepilot]

Yes, without pilots doing other people's jobs delays would be much much longer.

Mmmmm. “Its not my job” plays OK for a union millwright, doesn’t ring so well for a 250K airline captain, but you do you.

No. It plays well for an airline captain as well. The constant distractions and interruptions affect the safety of the flight. Especially during preflight.

We aren’t talking about grabbing the stroller for a customer that is waiting. Or walking them to a specific part of the airport that they may need help finding or something of that nature. Things of this nature I actually enjoy doing. There were times during Covid the flight crew was allowed to leave to customs but the FAs and passengers were being metered through and would be held on the aircraft. I’d release the FO and hang out on board and see if any kids wanted to come up front while we waited at the gate to be allowed off. I and many others enjoy being part of the magic that we saw as kids ourselves.

The other stuff where someone barges in and interrupts your fmc programming to demand something be done that others and their 100s of managers are responsible for is the problem. It is a safety issue, and very few people realize the number of times that we are doing that stuff before every single flight.

Completely fair. Context is everything. Nice you have invited kids up front, that is special

[GTFA]

Even the Pilots who are staying have left.
I just do whats necessary now.. couldn't give a crap about hawkeyes or calling to ask where the fuel is.. not my problem.

Just do what is necessary. Who decides what that is? Hawkeyes, fuel? If you cared before but don't care now, did you really care before? Or were you just doing it for the money? If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot. Everything that a pilot does that is related to the operation of their flight can have an effect on safety. Not being a productive part of the flight Ops team can lead to failure of other team members with unforeseen consequences.

Please do not use safety as leverage in bargaining. It is, of course a meaningful argument but not a practical act. If you wish to withhold your professional services, then do that, don't come to work.

[cdnavater]

Even the Pilots who are staying have left.
I just do whats necessary now.. couldn't give a crap about hawkeyes or calling to ask where the fuel is.. not my problem.

Just do what is necessary. Who decides what that is? Hawkeyes, fuel? If you cared before but don't care now, did you really care before? Or were you just doing it for the money? If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot. Everything that a pilot does that is related to the operation of their flight can have an effect on safety. Not being a productive part of the flight Ops team can lead to failure of other team members with unforeseen consequences.

Please do not use safety as leverage in bargaining. It is, of course a meaningful argument but not a practical act. If you wish to withhold your professional services, then do that, don't come to work.

I’m not sure what sending hawkeyes and inquiring about the fuel truck has to do with safety!
The operation needs to realize how much extra the pilots do to keep things on the rails, doing what is required and not going above and beyond is actually the safest course of action.
We are busy up front and adding to that because some other department has dropped the ball adds to the busyness, thereby increasing risk to safety.
Your post SCREAMS management! You think the CEO isn’t in it for the money, give your head a shake! Motivation for being a pilot is why some pilots take shitty paying jobs or even volunteer to swamp for the summer as an “intern”, that couldn’t be any more unprofessional, demanding you be compensated properly for all the extra stuff is not unprofessional.

[thepoors]

Even the Pilots who are staying have left.
I just do whats necessary now.. couldn't give a crap about hawkeyes or calling to ask where the fuel is.. not my problem.

Just do what is necessary. Who decides what that is? Hawkeyes, fuel? If you cared before but don't care now, did you really care before? Or were you just doing it for the money? If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot. Everything that a pilot does that is related to the operation of their flight can have an effect on safety. Not being a productive part of the flight Ops team can lead to failure of other team members with unforeseen consequences.

Please do not use safety as leverage in bargaining. It is, of course a meaningful argument but not a practical act. If you wish to withhold your professional services, then do that, don't come to work.

Are you a volunteer? Or just another management shill? This is a job. First and foremost I do it for a paycheck.

"If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot."

This is the kind of harmful propaganda companies have ridden on for far too long in this country. And it's why they are now addicted to our deeply discounted labour. Passion for aviation doesn't pay my mortgage or put food on the table for my kids.

Yes, my motivation is to be the utmost professional. Yes, I also expect to be treated and compensated like one. Grow the F up.

[altiplano]

Even the Pilots who are staying have left.
I just do whats necessary now.. couldn't give a crap about hawkeyes or calling to ask where the fuel is.. not my problem.

Just do what is necessary. Who decides what that is? Hawkeyes, fuel? If you cared before but don't care now, did you really care before? Or were you just doing it for the money? If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot. Everything that a pilot does that is related to the operation of their flight can have an effect on safety. Not being a productive part of the flight Ops team can lead to failure of other team members with unforeseen consequences.

Please do not use safety as leverage in bargaining. It is, of course a meaningful argument but not a practical act. If you wish to withhold your professional services, then do that, don't come to work.

You can just as easily flip that coin.

Management shows us the absolute minimum that they possibly can - they always "work to rule" on what's in the contract. As soon as we said we wanted to negotiate they pulled our passes, cancelled 2% retroactive mpu uplifts for the pension, and cancelled another scheduled 2% mpu increase and 2% pay increase - then they didn't come to the table until they threatened to lock us out last February.

Meanwhile scheduling, vacation slots, time off, etc. they all leverage to the min/max. In fact they go below the minimum when they short us pay and per diems every month - it's a thing, ask any AC pilot - every month. They mis award flying, they don't respect seniority, don't book DH priority properly, forget to load crew meals, don't release when the contract says that they should, don't create efficient pairings, they violate our contract regularly in all corners. They are running a whole airline right now (rouge) in violation of the contract and are about to do it again when they relaunch 767 PAX service. They lie to you, they have schedulers that will yell at you and try to convince you to work illegally, they have no regard for ethics, health, or safety - lip service only.

When we have a concern it's always a dragged out grievance, they fight us every time.

They've defined when I'm productive. That's when I'm paid. Used to be doors closed to doors opened... then they thought they'd chisel us a few more minutes pay away and changed it brakes off to brakes set. They don't even let me release the brakes when we're sitting ready and there's an airport or ATC or weather delay.

Despite that we show up early and do our flight planning and aircraft preparation with no pay, we would always be ready to take the brakes off on schedule... were it only if everyone else on the team supported us in doing that. Poor planning is the big culprit, that's an executive's decision. No plane, no ground crew, no gate, unrealistic turn time, unrealistic duty day, illegal crew rest, etc. etc. Do you wonder why AC is always the worst on time? Look at their published city pair flight times and compare it to another airline - they plan their flights based on being late 80% of the time because they are cheap.

All of that is a manager's choice and it snowballs and they constantly seek to download the resulting problems onto us to deal with for free when there are literally 10,000+ people sitting in offices and paid to do it. They're busy doing retirement cakes and swapping muffin recipes though... I honestly don't think some of these people even know we run an airline here.

Everything now, I ask myself, is this my problem? My crews problem? If it isn't, I don't let them make it my problem, why should I? The fact is I have enough problems to deal with here as is, and they don't care about my or my crews problems.

Management's job is to take care of the employees, make it easy for them to look after your clients, that's how you manage. But they aren't taking care of the pilots at this airline and it shows. The poor pay and degraded conditions, new hires unable to afford a basic apartment in their base, the complete lack of work/life balance for most of the list is well documented on this site. They are constantly pressuring to take more.

Love my airline, hate the management. That's the reality here.

302 days without a contract.

[TalkingPie]

I love how executives tell employees who can't afford a mortgage that they should be motivated by "passion for the job" while simultaneously saying they need to offer not just millions of dollars, but ever-increasing millions of dollars, to motivate hard-working, competent executives.

[DanWEC]

I'm pretty sure I didn't get an ATPL to fly for pleasure or volunteer, and I'm pretty sure AC isn't a charity organization.

[digits_]

Or were you just doing it for the money?

Do you work for free?

If you tell me what, where and when to fly, you need to pay me.

[CaptainP8]

Even the Pilots who are staying have left.
I just do whats necessary now.. couldn't give a crap about hawkeyes or calling to ask where the fuel is.. not my problem.

Just do what is necessary. Who decides what that is? Hawkeyes, fuel? If you cared before but don't care now, did you really care before? Or were you just doing it for the money? If this is any indication of a spreading attitude, it is time for professional pilots to dig deep and consider their motivation for being a professional pilot. Everything that a pilot does that is related to the operation of their flight can have an effect on safety. Not being a productive part of the flight Ops team can lead to failure of other team members with unforeseen consequences.

Please do not use safety as leverage in bargaining. It is, of course a meaningful argument but not a practical act. If you wish to withhold your professional services, then do that, don't come to work.

You can just as easily flip that coin.

Management shows us the absolute minimum that they possibly can - they always "work to rule" on what's in the contract. As soon as we said we wanted to negotiate they pulled our passes, cancelled 2% retroactive mpu uplifts for the pension, and cancelled another scheduled 2% mpu increase and 2% pay increase - then they didn't come to the table until they threatened to lock us out last February.

Meanwhile scheduling, vacation slots, time off, etc. they all leverage to the min/max. In fact they go below the minimum when they short us pay and per diems every month - it's a thing, ask any AC pilot - every month. They mis award flying, they don't respect seniority, don't book DH priority properly, forget to load crew meals, don't release when the contract says that they should, don't create efficient pairings, they violate our contract regularly in all corners. They are running a whole airline right now (rouge) in violation of the contract and are about to do it again when they relaunch 767 PAX service. They lie to you, they have schedulers that will yell at you and try to convince you to work illegally, they have no regard for ethics, health, or safety - lip service only.

When we have a concern it's always a dragged out grievance, they fight us every time.

They've defined when I'm productive. That's when I'm paid. Used to be doors closed to doors opened... then they thought they'd chisel us a few more minutes pay away and changed it brakes off to brakes set. They don't even let me release the brakes when we're sitting ready and there's an airport or ATC or weather delay.

Despite that we show up early and do our flight planning and aircraft preparation with no pay, we would always be ready to take the brakes off on schedule... were it only if everyone else on the team supported us in doing that. Poor planning is the big culprit, that's an executive's decision. No plane, no ground crew, no gate, unrealistic turn time, unrealistic duty day, illegal crew rest, etc. etc. Do you wonder why AC is always the worst on time? Look at their published city pair flight times and compare it to another airline - they plan their flights based on being late 80% of the time because they are cheap.

All of that is a manager's choice and it snowballs and they constantly seek to download the resulting problems onto us to deal with for free when there are literally 10,000+ people sitting in offices and paid to do it. They're busy doing retirement cakes and swapping muffin recipes though... I honestly don't think some of these people even know we run an airline here.

Everything now, I ask myself, is this my problem? My crews problem? If it isn't, I don't let them make it my problem, why should I? The fact is I have enough problems to deal with here as is, and they don't care about my or my crews problems.

Management's job is to take care of the employees, make it easy for them to look after your clients, that's how you manage. But they aren't taking care of the pilots at this airline and it shows. The poor pay and degraded conditions, new hires unable to afford a basic apartment in their base, the complete lack of work/life balance for most of the list is well documented on this site. They are constantly pressuring to take more.

Love my airline, hate the management. That's the reality here.

302 days without a contract.

All you forgot was the mic drop emoji…that was well said!

[Ash Ketchum]

Honestly I don't think many will leave regardless of the contract. The US is the only viable clearly better option and that is not accessible to most. There is also Asia and the Middle East where there may be more money but from what I was told you pay for it in other ways (poor WLB balance and lack of job security/unions). I am fortunate enough to have another lucrative career on the back burner so I can jump back into that if the contract doesn't meet my expectations but not everyone is so lucky.