Nav Can Whisky Tango Fox over

[Smilin' Jack]

Seriously, you guys have one job: show up to work and provide ATC Services. You're the ONLY provider of ATC in Canada and for the fees that you guys charge everyone you should be grossly overstaffed. 3 days in a row of 4 hour ground stops because it's too nice of a day in YYZ and everyone decided to take the day off and go to the lake...embarrassing.

When airlines can't provide the services their customers are paying for, they go to another airline. It's not like airlines can choose to use a different non-NAV Canada Tower. If you don't have enough controllers HIRE MORE. It isn't like it's a bad job. I know you guys only work for an hour then get an hour break while being paid for the whole shift. In addition to the tens of thousands of passengers you are inconveniencing, your failure to provide the services you are contracted to do so means you have hundreds, if not thousands of pilots and flight attendants sitting around NOT BEING PAID for four hours while you guys get your shit together.

You probably wouldn't need as many controllers if you guys could just figure out how to descend via the STAR and climb via the SID like EVERY OTHER COUNTRY WORLDWIDE. Seriously if your Standard arrivals and departures don't work as written, REWRITE them! I'm pretty sure you guys employ someone to do this (he probably didn't show up to work today either).

[Ninja92]

100%!!!!

[JasonE]

My wife's flight YYZ - YVR was delayed an hour on the ground after loading yesterday for this.

[MD11]

Flow in and out of YYZ or YVR every other day. Throw in a TCU around those airports and you're done. Absolutely ridiculous and we don't have nearly as many aircraft coming in as US major airports. CYTZ tower closure almost daily.
Meanwhile in Florida you have multiple cells up 60,000 ft and ATC helps you vector in between them and your route. Canada is a joke.

[rookiepilot]

Don’t you guys know its among the world’s busiest airspace? You just don’t get it…

[JustaCanadian]

I don't think it's the controllers making the staffing decisions. If they are entitled to vacation days during summer, that's management's problem to solve.

Enjoy your summer.

But I'm all for passengers understanding where to direct their frustration. Is it navCanadas fault? CBSA? CATSA? The airline? The airport authorities? Lots of people have a hand in making the operation move and I would agree that passengers should know about the process so they can ask where all the airport improvement fees go when the airport experience is terrible.

[CpnCrunch]

It's ultimately the airlines' penny pinching that has caused this mess, mostly during COVID, although weve been bitching about the yvr issues here for over 10 years.

The airlines, and WJ in particular at the moment, seem to love cutting what they deem to be unnecessary costs which then come back to bite them in the ass in future.

[goingnowherefast]

Airline managers hold some positions on the NavCanada BOD. Certainly a conflict of interest. Keep the pressure on. Rightfully so, make the PA blaming ATC delays. Maybe one day someone will take it to the news about sitting on the plane for x hours and "ATC" needs to be managed better.

[CpnCrunch]

Airline managers hold some positions on the NavCanada BOD. Certainly a conflict of interest. Keep the pressure on. Rightfully so, make the PA blaming ATC delays. Maybe one day someone will take it to the news about sitting on the plane for x hours and "ATC" needs to be managed better.

I wouldn't really call it a COI, as the airlines use the majority of Nav Can's services.

Looks like Nav Can is reducing its fees this year:

https://skiesmag.com/news/nav-canada-ad ... -recovery/

but apparently all is good, and they're training new controllers:

https://vancouversun.com/business/local ... delays-yvr

We'll see.

[khedrei]

When the success rate for controllers is 10% in canada and supposedly 70% in the US you don't have to look far to figure out where the problem lies. If the US gives their controllers 3+ years and we try to push them through in 2-2.5, that might be a place to start. The lack of qualified controllers are just the beginning. Imagine saying that 90% of your training budget literally goes down the toilet.

[newlygrounded]

When the success rate for controllers is 10% in canada and supposedly 70% in the US you don't have to look far to figure out where the problem lies. If the US gives their controllers 3+ years and we try to push them through in 2-2.5, that might be a place to start. The lack of qualified controllers are just the beginning. Imagine saying that 90% of your training budget literally goes down the toilet.

Doesn't the US think anyone over 30 is too old to start?

[bcflyer]

It's ultimately the airlines' penny pinching that has caused this mess, mostly during COVID, although weve been bitching about the yvr issues here for over 10 years.

The airlines, and WJ in particular at the moment, seem to love cutting what they deem to be unnecessary costs which then come back to bite them in the ass in future.

Sorry but I’m confused. How did airlines penny pinching cause a Nav Can controller shortage?

[CpnCrunch]

It's ultimately the airlines' penny pinching that has caused this mess, mostly during COVID, although weve been bitching about the yvr issues here for over 10 years.

The airlines, and WJ in particular at the moment, seem to love cutting what they deem to be unnecessary costs which then come back to bite them in the ass in future.

Sorry but I’m confused. How did airlines penny pinching cause a Nav Can controller shortage?

Nav can fired a whole bunch of employees and stopped training, as per the Vancouver Sun article in my comment. Airlines exert a lot of control over nav Canada sfees.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Taking out your rage on the controllers is the wrong place to direct your anger. I know lots of controllers working perpetual schedules of 8 days on, 1 day off. There are those of us who would not normally do overtime but are volunteering for extra shifts to help the operation. Lots of controllers at small airports are working alone for 4 hours straight with no provision for relief breaks, not one hour on and one hour off. I would say by and large, if it weren’t for the actions of many controllers taking on extra workload and responsibility that the situation would be much worse than it is. I’d rather have my days off during the summer so I can be home with my small kids, but I volunteer to work extra to not leave my tower short staffed.

And as for comparing us to the FAA, just read their ATC Reddit thread and the comments there. The controllers there are forced to do overtime to cover the operation, and if they book off, they can be reprimanded. It then becomes easy to maintain operational integrity if your controllers are unable to take days off or else be penalized. They also feel so pressured to maintain performance that they’re pushing the operation to the breaking point, as evidenced by the myriad of recent close calls that are completely ATC’s fault. Sure they can move traffic, but it isn’t such a rosy picture as it looks to you from the cockpit at 30,000’.

Training has ramped up dramatically and will further increase now that Nav has signed with CAE to provide some of the initial training. Nav’s own internal training framework was recognized as not being large enough to meet demand, so outside support has been brought in to fill the gaps. It won’t solve the situation today or tomorrow, but it is a step in the right direction. There have been other improvements in the hiring process that is speeding up the training process, but I won't go into that here.

But I get it. As a former 705 pilot, I too found it easy to blame ATC when I was delayed. But being on the other side of the microphone now, I see it is really the fault of those above the level of the front-line worker. Passengers blame pilots for delays during IRROPS, but it’s often not the pilots fault. They're just the convenient scapegoat. If anything, the pilots step up to help recover the operation. Same thing here. It’s not Joe Average controller’s fault we’re in the situation we’re in, and if it weren't for a lot of us going the extra mile day after day, then we'd all be worse off.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Shut the tower down. Turn YVR into an uncontrolled airport. We can sort it out ourselves and won’t need 25 mile spacing to do it.

(Not directed at the controllers themselves.)

[Taxivasion]

Navcan is a giant third party gov't fat,bloated, inefficient entity.

Not blaming the controllers AT ALL. This is a top down issue.

Who's addressing it?

[BigQ]

When the success rate for controllers is 10% in canada and supposedly 70% in the US you don't have to look far to figure out where the problem lies. If the US gives their controllers 3+ years and we try to push them through in 2-2.5, that might be a place to start. The lack of qualified controllers are just the beginning. Imagine saying that 90% of your training budget literally goes down the toilet.

As I understand it...

The senior trainers at Navcan have a little scam-esque scheme where they will train someone to near completion and then fail them, quite often on arbitrary (but legally-protectable) reasons, which means they pocket both sweet training hours bonuses AND future overtime "because there aren't enough controllers".

As these seniors retire, well, now there truly won't be enough controllers...

[nvcatc]

Seriously, you guys have one job: show up to work and provide ATC Services. You're the ONLY provider of ATC in Canada and for the fees that you guys charge everyone you should be grossly overstaffed. 3 days in a row of 4 hour ground stops because it's too nice of a day in YYZ and everyone decided to take the day off and go to the lake...embarrassing.

Can't argue that we're the only provider, but with all due respect, we do show up to work. We show up to work way more than we're obligated to. We're short staffed, we're held together with overtime, and many people are working the max allowable. I don't know anyone who doesn't work any OT. We're doing the best we can. Yes, decisions were made over Covid that made our position worse now, but that decision wasn't the fault of the controllers, it was in the past, and we can't magically change that now. We're training at max capacity to try and get back on track, but licenses don't happen over night. And on people's days off in summer when kids are at home from school, you can't blame people for wanting to work less OT and see their families. I bet you want to enjoy your days off too.

Don’t you guys know its among the world’s busiest airspace? You just don’t get it…

Literally nobody has ever tried to claim this. Doesn't mean units can't get buried with traffic though.

Taking out your rage on the controllers is the wrong place to direct your anger. I know lots of controllers working perpetual schedules of 8 days on, 1 day off. There are those of us who would not normally do overtime but are volunteering for extra shifts to help the operation. Lots of controllers at small airports are working alone for 4 hours straight with no provision for relief breaks, not one hour on and one hour off. I would say by and large, if it weren’t for the actions of many controllers taking on extra workload and responsibility that the situation would be much worse than it is. I’d rather have my days off during the summer so I can be home with my small kids, but I volunteer to work extra to not leave my tower short staffed.

And as for comparing us to the FAA, just read their ATC Reddit thread and the comments there. The controllers there are forced to do overtime to cover the operation, and if they book off, they can be reprimanded. It then becomes easy to maintain operational integrity if your controllers are unable to take days off or else be penalized. They also feel so pressured to maintain performance that they’re pushing the operation to the breaking point, as evidenced by the myriad of recent close calls that are completely ATC’s fault. Sure they can move traffic, but it isn’t such a rosy picture as it looks to you from the cockpit at 30,000’.

Training has ramped up dramatically and will further increase now that Nav has signed with CAE to provide some of the initial training. Nav’s own internal training framework was recognized as not being large enough to meet demand, so outside support has been brought in to fill the gaps. It won’t solve the situation today or tomorrow, but it is a step in the right direction. There have been other improvements in the hiring process that is speeding up the training process, but I won't go into that here.

But I get it. As a former 705 pilot, I too found it easy to blame ATC when I was delayed. But being on the other side of the microphone now, I see it is really the fault of those above the level of the front-line worker. Passengers blame pilots for delays during IRROPS, but it’s often not the pilots fault. They're just the convenient scapegoat. If anything, the pilots step up to help recover the operation. Same thing here. It’s not Joe Average controller’s fault we’re in the situation we’re in, and if it weren't for a lot of us going the extra mile day after day, then we'd all be worse off.

Agree with all this. Non-controllers love to tell us how we're terrible compared to the FAA, but conveniently always leave out how the US has mandatory OT so they work 6-day work weeks, controllers there are reprimanded for cancelling or calling out on OT, busy sectors often sit 2 controllers to a position (data and radar) instead of one like we do, etc. Morale there is at all time lows because everyone is burnt out and exhausted. Incidents are on the rise. Yes, they move traffic, but if you remember controllers are human beings and not machines, and should be allowed to have some time away from work to rest, maybe you would have a little more understanding for the position that we (and they) are in.

When the success rate for controllers is 10% in canada and supposedly 70% in the US you don't have to look far to figure out where the problem lies. If the US gives their controllers 3+ years and we try to push them through in 2-2.5, that might be a place to start. The lack of qualified controllers are just the beginning. Imagine saying that 90% of your training budget literally goes down the toilet.

As I understand it...

The senior trainers at Navcan have a little scam-esque scheme where they will train someone to near completion and then fail them, quite often on arbitrary (but legally-protectable) reasons, which means they pocket both sweet training hours bonuses AND future overtime "because there aren't enough controllers".

As these seniors retire, well, now there truly won't be enough controllers...

If you read comments from US controllers, you'll see that they believe people are being pushed through to licenses who have no business holding one, and that's another contributing factor of why incidents are on the rise there. Our success rates aren't great, but definitely higher than 10%. Training has historically taken longer in the US, in large part because the backlog is so high that people get sent to a facility and then wait until they can get time on the floor. Or only get a couple hours a day. I believe that's improving now. With us, once you're at your unit, you train your entire shift. Things can get delayed in the school for various reasons, but once you're at the OJT stage, you're always training.

Wanting to protect OT was maybe true in the past, but I've never seen that executed on and a trainee be CT'd because of it. CTs have all been people who couldn't make it in that unit, and many who showed promise are re-coursed elsewhere to a different unit. If trainees are close to making it and just need a bit more time where they are, they'll be given more time. We need people. We are so flooded with overtime, the people who want to time out can do so before half the schedule is over. The conversations now are about how much worse it's going to be if the people who mention retirement pull the trigger and we can't get enough new licenses. The premiums we're paid to train are not worth having someone who makes a lot of mistakes work on your license during busy summer traffic, so nobody is in it for money. You can make more doing one hour of OT than a whole shift as an instructor, with much less effort. Most people who volunteer to train do so because they enjoy it and/or want to help improve our situation and/or want to do their part for the next generation. The rest do so because they're asked to. None do it for a padded pay cheque.

[khedrei]

When the success rate for controllers is 10% in canada and supposedly 70% in the US you don't have to look far to figure out where the problem lies. If the US gives their controllers 3+ years and we try to push them through in 2-2.5, that might be a place to start. The lack of qualified controllers are just the beginning. Imagine saying that 90% of your training budget literally goes down the toilet.

As I understand it...

The senior trainers at Navcan have a little scam-esque scheme where they will train someone to near completion and then fail them, quite often on arbitrary (but legally-protectable) reasons, which means they pocket both sweet training hours bonuses AND future overtime "because there aren't enough controllers".

As these seniors retire, well, now there truly won't be enough controllers...

Oh I know.... I was there. And the people that left after me could attest to the same.

Nvcatc will tell you that it doesn't happen because that's what they tell everyone. What people say and what people do are two different things.

Also, I was told that Airports has less than a 10% access rate. Others might be higher, but I don't the10% number is far off.

Also, extra time is not something that is given. If you arent where they want you to be when they want you to be there, you get one more shot at the eval, then you're gone.

[nvcatc]

Oh I know.... I was there. And the people that left after me could attest to the same.

Nvcatc will tell you that it doesn't happen because that's what they tell everyone. What people say and what people do are two different things.

Also, I was told that Airports has less than a 10% access rate. Others might be higher, but I don't the10% number is far off.

Also, extra time is not something that is given. If you arent where they want you to be when they want you to be there, you get one more shot at the eval, then you're gone.

I'm sure the picture looks different if you were CT'd, and you sound bitter about it, which I understand. But you don't know what's going on with the operation if you were CT'd from specialty. When I said more time is given if you need it, that's on the floor. An eval in the sim has a set of criteria which is standard to anyone who takes it. If you don't pass that set if criteria, you get another try. If you fail the re-try, you're out. They can't just push it under the rug and keep you going because they feel like it. The pass/fail criteria are there for a reason.

Your 10% pass rate is speculation or hearsay, but not accurate.

[rookiepilot]

Oh I know.... I was there. And the people that left after me could attest to the same.

Nvcatc will tell you that it doesn't happen because that's what they tell everyone. What people say and what people do are two different things.

Also, I was told that Airports has less than a 10% access rate. Others might be higher, but I don't the10% number is far off.

Also, extra time is not something that is given. If you arent where they want you to be when they want you to be there, you get one more shot at the eval, then you're gone.

I'm sure the picture looks different if you were CT'd, and you sound bitter about it, which I understand. But you don't know what's going on with the operation if you were CT'd from specialty. When I said more time is given if you need it, that's on the floor. An eval in the sim has a set of criteria which is standard to anyone who takes it. If you don't pass that set if criteria, you get another try. If you fail the re-try, you're out. They can't just push it under the rug and keep you going because they feel like it. The pass/fail criteria are there for a reason.

Your 10% pass rate is speculation or hearsay, but not accurate.

Whats the actual pass rate then? Correct us.

Oh, and lets not discuss US controllers.

This is a Canadian conversation.

Why are we still blaming Covid for anything ? This strains credibility.

[khedrei]

My class was less than 10% if you count off the street only. There were a couple experienced nav employees that made it.

I was told the following class was 0%.

Perhaps the nav employee can give an accurate number for say the past 5 years... I'm Not going to claim to know all the numbers. I'm just going by what I saw as well as what other controllers have told me.

[goingnowherefast]

Why are we still blaming Covid for anything ? This strains credibility.

They were short controllers before Covid. When Covid hit, they were adequately staffed. So what does any smart manager do when adequately staffed with a medium term lull in demand? Stop training, lay off a bunch of controllers, shut down towers, MF aerodrome advisory stations, etc. By the time training resumed, they were squarely behind the 8-ball, had severely fucked up the management of the workforce levels through the pandemic and are unable to play catchup for years and years.

They basically assumed the flying slowdown would never recover, and they'd be managing covid traffic levels forever.

So yes, NavCanada management managed covid so poorly that it is still a credible excuse.

[khedrei]

Why are we still blaming Covid for anything ? This strains credibility.

They were short controllers before Covid. When Covid hit, they were adequately staffed. So what does any smart manager do when adequately staffed with a medium term lull in demand? Stop training, lay off a bunch of controllers, shut down towers, MF aerodrome advisory stations, etc. By the time training resumed, they were squarely behind the 8-ball, had severely fucked up the management of the workforce levels through the pandemic and are unable to play catchup for years and years.

They basically assumed the flying slowdown would never recover, and they'd be managing covid traffic levels forever.

So yes, NavCanada management managed covid so poorly that it is still a credible excuse.

This is as about as accurate of a description of what happened as it gets.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Navcan is a giant third party gov't fat,bloated, inefficient entity.

For the LAST TIME, NAVCANADA has NOTHING to do with the government. In 1996, the government sold Transport's ATC services to NAVCANADA. You sound like an uninformed airline passenger who thinks Air Canada is still owned and operated by the federal government. If the AC pilots go on strike, make sure to tell people that the greedy pilots are just over-paid government employees looking for more!

The senior trainers at Navcan have a little scam-esque scheme where they will train someone to near completion and then fail them, quite often on arbitrary (but legally-protectable) reasons, which means they pocket both sweet training hours bonuses AND future overtime "because there aren't enough controllers".

That might have been true in the past, but people want time off with their families now instead of unlimited O/T. We are paid well enough now that lifestyle is the overriding concern instead of making more money. And as was often NOT the case in the past, those who came up just short and get CT'd are often re-coursed. At my tower, many of the controllers were CT'd elsewhere before being sent here, and all are successful and excellent controllers.

My class was less than 10% if you count off the street only. There were a couple experienced nav employees that made it.

I was told the following class was 0%.

Perhaps the nav employee can give an accurate number for say the past 5 years... I'm Not going to claim to know all the numbers. I'm just going by what I saw as well as what other controllers have told me.

I'm speaking as a Tower controller here. Of the class before me (6 people), I believe 5 ended up getting their licenses (split between YYZ and the smaller Ontario regional towers). It might even be 6 for 6 but I can't remember one of the people. On my course, 60% of us got a license. The course after me had a similar pass rate. FSS is higher than that, and IFR is lower than that. But to make a blanket statement making it sound like a system-wide 0-10% success rate is the norm, you're misinformed.

There are over 400 students in training right now which I believe is an all-time record, with soon to be be 400+ with the addition of CAE. Management is finally seeing the need to do something, and things like CAE are just one change among many to better streamline hiring and training and ultimately create more successful controllers.