Nav Can Whisky Tango Fox over

[‘Bob’]

Except that both Nav Canada and Air Canada came from bloated government organizations, are guaranteed monopolies as if by Royal Charter, have none of the incentives to improve their respective services to their customers, and will always have the government to bail them out.

Maybe if Nav Canada was paid by the departure and landing, and fined for each CADOR or TCAS R/A, we’d have better service.

[goingnowherefast]

There are over 400 students in training right now which I believe is an all-time record, with soon to be be 400+ with the addition of CAE. Management is finally seeing the need to do something, and things like CAE are just one change among many to better streamline hiring and training and ultimately create more successful controllers.

About 6 years too late. When it's 2+ years to train a controller, the industry is in for another couple years of this pain before the changes even start to be noticed.

It's correct that NavCanada is a private company, but much of the government bloated structure remains intact. I've heard the same said of AC.

[DanWEC]

I don't see any of this aimed at controllers themselves, you guys are all good in my books, but rather the blatantly incompetent directors of the company. You're only working within the conditions imposed on you.

When you have an enforced monopoly, regardless of the fact that it's a private NPO, and you can't even provide the service that you're handed on a silver platter, it's a complete and utter boondoggle by management. Almost to an unfathomable level.

When you have hour long ground stops in perfect weather for flow over the Atlantic because Gander isn't staffed enough, 3 years after the pandemic, it's a screaming red flag that you have complete and utter morons running the show. There's no justification and no two ways about it, it's a management failure. The really frustrating thing is that they have zero accountability. No shareholders, no gov't oversight. These guys couldn't run a Tim Hortons, and I guarantee they got bonuses too. I wish I could get rewarded for being literal years late reacting to things that a 6 month DeVry graduate could handle better.

[cdnavater]

I don't see any of this aimed at controllers themselves, you guys are all good in my books, but rather the blatantly incompetent directors of the company. You're only working within the conditions imposed on you.

When you have an enforced monopoly, regardless of the fact that it's a private NPO, and you can't even provide the service that you're handed on a silver platter, it's a complete and utter boondoggle by management. Almost to an unfathomable level.

When you have hour long ground stops in perfect weather for flow over the Atlantic because Gander isn't staffed enough, 3 years after the pandemic, it's a screaming red flag that you have complete and utter morons running the show. There's no justification and no two ways about it, it's a management failure. The really frustrating thing is that they have zero accountability. No shareholders, no gov't oversight. These guys couldn't run a Tim Hortons, and I guarantee they got bonuses too. I wish I could get rewarded for being literal years late reacting to things that a 6 month DeVry graduate could handle better.

There have been some posts accusing controllers of taking days off in the summer instead of working to prevent these ground stops, accusations of failing new hires on purpose to protect OT, a few other things directed at the controllers for sure.
That aside, even before Covid, there were flow delays in YYC on clear sky days I could never understand. Worst case I ever experienced was en-route from YWG-YYC, YWG controller says slow down, handed over to YYC, says best forward speed to then issue a hold for 15 that could have been completely negated by maintaining the original slowdown clearance, it seemed completely intentional, with the only other option being complete incompetence.

[rookiepilot]

I don't see any of this aimed at controllers themselves, you guys are all good in my books, but rather the blatantly incompetent directors of the company. You're only working within the conditions imposed on you.

When you have an enforced monopoly, regardless of the fact that it's a private NPO, and you can't even provide the service that you're handed on a silver platter, it's a complete and utter boondoggle by management. Almost to an unfathomable level.

When you have hour long ground stops in perfect weather for flow over the Atlantic because Gander isn't staffed enough, 3 years after the pandemic, it's a screaming red flag that you have complete and utter morons running the show. There's no justification and no two ways about it, it's a management failure. The really frustrating thing is that they have zero accountability. No shareholders, no gov't oversight. These guys couldn't run a Tim Hortons, and I guarantee they got bonuses too. I wish I could get rewarded for being literal years late reacting to things that a 6 month DeVry graduate could handle better.

This.

And controllers come on and get personally offended cause we dare to post about what is going on. Didn’t realize this was about hurt feelings. Talk about trying to change the channel.

So everyone should shut up then?

[rookiepilot]

I don't see any of this aimed at controllers themselves, you guys are all good in my books, but rather the blatantly incompetent directors of the company. You're only working within the conditions imposed on you.

When you have an enforced monopoly, regardless of the fact that it's a private NPO, and you can't even provide the service that you're handed on a silver platter, it's a complete and utter boondoggle by management. Almost to an unfathomable level.

When you have hour long ground stops in perfect weather for flow over the Atlantic because Gander isn't staffed enough, 3 years after the pandemic, it's a screaming red flag that you have complete and utter morons running the show. There's no justification and no two ways about it, it's a management failure. The really frustrating thing is that they have zero accountability. No shareholders, no gov't oversight. These guys couldn't run a Tim Hortons, and I guarantee they got bonuses too. I wish I could get rewarded for being literal years late reacting to things that a 6 month DeVry graduate could handle better.

There have been some posts accusing controllers of taking days off in the summer instead of working to prevent these ground stops, accusations of failing new hires on purpose to protect OT, a few other things directed at the controllers for sure.
That aside, even before Covid, there were flow delays in YYC on clear sky days I could never understand. Worst case I ever experienced was en-route from YWG-YYC, YWG controller says slow down, handed over to YYC, says best forward speed to then issue a hold for 15 that could have been completely negated by maintaining the original slowdown clearance, it seemed completely intentional, with the only other option being complete incompetence.

Well, gee then, I have heard the same stories as long as I have been flying, so it’s nothing to do with Covid, thats a bullshit excuse, right?

[DHC-1 Jockey]

And controllers come on and get personally offended cause we dare to post about what is going on. Didn’t realize this was about hurt feelings. Talk about trying to change the channel.

So everyone should shut up then?

I think the backlash from some controllers here is directed at those that are implying that the controllers are purposefully failing trainees to protect our overtime, or that we're booking off sick on nice days to go to the cottage, or that Flow/GDP issues are blamed on controller incompetence. The systemic issues are well above the rank-and-file controller's pay grade.

I encourage any professional pilot to request a tour of their ACC and actually get a chance to meet the people that they talk to over the radio on a day to day basis. See what we're working with, the limitations we have and how we're doing the best we can given the circumstances. I'll tell you, after becoming a controller after being an airline pilot for 15 years, that seeing how the other side works definitely makes me a more patient pilot than before I knew what was really going on.

[rookiepilot]

And controllers come on and get personally offended cause we dare to post about what is going on. Didn’t realize this was about hurt feelings. Talk about trying to change the channel.

So everyone should shut up then?

I think the backlash from some controllers here is directed at those that are implying that the controllers are purposefully failing trainees to protect our overtime, or that we're booking off sick on nice days to go to the cottage,

When I flew my plane across the country to YVR in 2014, I heard exactly this from multiple people there — controllers booked off on nice days.

I could not get VFR handling with Terminal there myself , either.

So you’re saying this never happens or has happened?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Flow into YVR or YYZ is ridiculous. Slow down, speed up, ohh….. boxum crossing time, vectors for spacing, direct boxum, how fast can you go now?

Maybe the government should look at funding ATC versus a pay per use model. The FAA is miles ahead. Grooved 1.5 miles long runways with ILS approaches on both ends basically at every airport. And here I am using lethbridge as an alternate.

[rookiepilot]

And controllers come on and get personally offended cause we dare to post about what is going on. Didn’t realize this was about hurt feelings. Talk about trying to change the channel.

So everyone should shut up then?

I think the backlash from some controllers here is directed at those that are implying that the controllers are purposefully failing trainees to protect our overtime, or that we're booking off sick on nice days to go to the cottage,

When I flew my plane across the country to YVR in 2014, I heard exactly this from multiple people there — controllers booked off on nice days.

I could not get VFR handling with Terminal there myself , either.

So you’re saying this never happens or has happened?

???

[DanWEC]

I encourage any professional pilot to request a tour of their ACC and actually get a chance to meet the people that they talk to over the radio on a day to day basis. See what we're working with, the limitations we have and how we're doing the best we can given the circumstances. I'll tell you, after becoming a controller after being an airline pilot for 15 years, that seeing how the other side works definitely makes me a more patient pilot than before I knew what was really going on.

100%! I've visited almost every sector I've worked in across the country, YYZ, YOW, YUL, YQG, heck even YTS and relay radio stations in SK. I can honestly say I've never met a controller I didn't like, all great guys and gals.

It's too bad you get shit on as the front-line face of the problem, and it's coming from AC guys in the exact same short-staffed situation.

Nobody wants to inconvenience anyone, and clearly there are times when you buck up and go in, but there are times for everyone when you just have to be a human with your own life. Everybody's booked off for one reason or another, in every job and position.

When you have directors and managers making multitudes more than us, who can't even competently manage, who are short-staffing to the point where if someone books off, everything goes to shit, it's absolutely NOT MY PROBLEM. They get bonuses to be directors, so, direct! They should take the shitstorm of why their product is failing.
Otherwise, they will continue to staff leanly in order to validate their position, putting the entire burden of obtaining their bonus on the controllers/pilots below them, and it won't stop.
Sometimes you have to break a few eggs.

[Chuck Yagermeister]

Flow into YVR or YYZ is ridiculous. Slow down, speed up, ohh….. boxum crossing time, vectors for spacing, direct boxum, how fast can you go now?

Maybe the government should look at funding ATC versus a pay per use model. The FAA is miles ahead. Grooved 1.5 miles long runways with ILS approaches on both ends basically at every airport. And here I am using lethbridge as an alternate.

Herein lies the failure of aviation in Canada in a nutshell. It's taxed to shit and aviators/passengers are almost penalized for flying. Whereas in the USA owning a plane isn't that expensive (compared to here), every airport even ones in rural areas have full LED runway edge lighting and ILS approaches AND their controllers are arguably better trained to move high volumes. SOCAL approach on a busy evening still takes VFR flight following, where in Canada VFR departures are issued a flow time and told unable flight following. Like most problems, throw money at it and use it to train more controllers / better equip NAVCAN to hopefully provide a basic service we require.

[rookiepilot]

Flow into YVR or YYZ is ridiculous. Slow down, speed up, ohh….. boxum crossing time, vectors for spacing, direct boxum, how fast can you go now?

Maybe the government should look at funding ATC versus a pay per use model. The FAA is miles ahead. Grooved 1.5 miles long runways with ILS approaches on both ends basically at every airport. And here I am using lethbridge as an alternate.

Herein lies the failure of aviation in Canada in a nutshell. It's taxed to shit and aviators/passengers are almost penalized for flying. Whereas in the USA owning a plane isn't that expensive (compared to here), every airport even ones in rural areas have full LED runway edge lighting and ILS approaches AND their controllers are arguably better trained to move high volumes. SOCAL approach on a busy evening still takes VFR flight following, where in Canada VFR departures are issued a flow time and told unable flight following. Like most problems, throw money at it and use it to train more controllers / better equip NAVCAN to hopefully provide a basic service we require.

NYC VFR FF: “hey, happy to help out”.

For the uniformed, this is airspace with FIVE major airports in close proximity.

Ottawa terminal: “do you have a squawk code? No? We are FAR too busy to provide Sevice”.

[khedrei]

Oh I know.... I was there. And the people that left after me could attest to the same.

Nvcatc will tell you that it doesn't happen because that's what they tell everyone. What people say and what people do are two different things.

Also, I was told that Airports has less than a 10% access rate. Others might be higher, but I don't the10% number is far off.

Also, extra time is not something that is given. If you arent where they want you to be when they want you to be there, you get one more shot at the eval, then you're gone.

I'm sure the picture looks different if you were CT'd, and you sound bitter about it, which I understand. But you don't know what's going on with the operation if you were CT'd from specialty. When I said more time is given if you need it, that's on the floor. An eval in the sim has a set of criteria which is standard to anyone who takes it. If you don't pass that set if criteria, you get another try. If you fail the re-try, you're out. They can't just push it under the rug and keep you going because they feel like it. The pass/fail criteria are there for a reason.

Your 10% pass rate is speculation or hearsay, but not accurate.

No my 10% pass rate quote is what I saw in 4 classes and also what the instructors and other controllers told me. Perhaps it's better now?

I was a bit bitter at first, but I'm over it now and have long moved on.

My point was mainly that if Nav had a different approach to training instead of "you need to be here at this point or else" they would probably have a better success rate. I do not believe that anyone should be pushed through without meeting the standard. But if they could double or triple the success rate by simply giving a few more months. Or watching for improvement and as long as it's being made, keep going, things would be different. Learning isn't a straight line up. They even tell us that, but then they don't practice it by expecting a straight line upwards.

Imagine telling a pilot if they don't solo by 20 hours they will never be a pilot. I probably could have been a good controller. I just needed more time. Training should have some individual component to it, like most other industries.

Also, you claim that protecting overtime by CTing trainees used to happen, but no anymore.... forgive me if font believe it. The fact that you acknowledge it was a thing tells me you can't really know that it never happens anymore.

[Dias]

I have a feeling a lot of pilots would fail ATC training. Like the above poster said, you can't just keep trying until you squeak by.

[‘Bob’]

I have a feeling a lot of pilots would fail ATC training. Like the above poster said, you can't just keep trying until you squeak by.

I’ve managed more airplanes… from an airplane… than YVR terminal manages on a typical flow day.

[nomat]

Show us on the doll where you got CTd.

Ridiculous take

When the success rate for controllers is 10% in canada and supposedly 70% in the US you don't have to look far to figure out where the problem lies. If the US gives their controllers 3+ years and we try to push them through in 2-2.5, that might be a place to start. The lack of qualified controllers are just the beginning. Imagine saying that 90% of your training budget literally goes down the toilet.

As I understand it...

The senior trainers at Navcan have a little scam-esque scheme where they will train someone to near completion and then fail them, quite often on arbitrary (but legally-protectable) reasons, which means they pocket both sweet training hours bonuses AND future overtime "because there aren't enough controllers".

As these seniors retire, well, now there truly won't be enough controllers...

[khedrei]

Show us on the doll where the ATC system in canada is running great.

[goingnowherefast]

The spot where executives get their bonuses

[IJNShiroyuki]

NavCan want ads-b just like all the other country. But they aren't willing to pay for the price of installing ground stations like the state, so they decide to sign the fking contract with a satellite company to receive space based signal.
They don't want to pay themself so they offload the cost to aircraft owners and operators to install diversity ADS-B, and it cost doubl to triple of non diversity ADS-B.
We take your tax money but doesn't want to pay for service, and you gotta pay more, and what's even better? No benefit of FIS-B in flight weather like what the state have.

Adding the rant, endless altitude restriction to north bound traffic out of northern ontario, tower shut down in toronto, no vfr flight following, it's not like they saved money on ads-b to hire more controller, they saved money to provide suck ars service, while also being grumpy about our little bug smasher anoyying them 24/7.

[goingnowherefast]

.Adding the rant, endless altitude restriction to north bound traffic out of northern ontario, tower shut down in toronto, no vfr flight following, it's not like they saved money on ads-b to hire more controller, they saved money to provide suck ars service, while also being grumpy about our little bug smasher anoyying them 24/7.

Are they losing revenue by denying service? I sure hope so. Maybe GA users should start paying half their bill and include a letter with all the instances of denied service. "I'll pay the bill for the services provided. I'm not paying for denied service". The operators in Northern Ontario should send the bill to NavCanada for the additional fuel burnt with altitude restrictions. Hit the bean counters in the only place they'll notice or care.

[rookiepilot]

NavCan sounds exactly like JT. After 9 years in power, talk about positive changes that should have happened a decade ago.

And….nothing actually happens, except critics are attacking us personally and it offends us.

[nvcatc]

No my 10% pass rate quote is what I saw in 4 classes and also what the instructors and other controllers told me. Perhaps it's better now?

I was a bit bitter at first, but I'm over it now and have long moved on.

My point was mainly that if Nav had a different approach to training instead of "you need to be here at this point or else" they would probably have a better success rate. I do not believe that anyone should be pushed through without meeting the standard. But if they could double or triple the success rate by simply giving a few more months. Or watching for improvement and as long as it's being made, keep going, things would be different. Learning isn't a straight line up. They even tell us that, but then they don't practice it by expecting a straight line upwards.

Imagine telling a pilot if they don't solo by 20 hours they will never be a pilot. I probably could have been a good controller. I just needed more time. Training should have some individual component to it, like most other industries.

Also, you claim that protecting overtime by CTing trainees used to happen, but no anymore.... forgive me if font believe it. The fact that you acknowledge it was a thing tells me you can't really know that it never happens anymore.

Which 4 classes are you referring to? Are you including people laid off because of Covid? Airports has a bunch of new/newer licenses.

As for protecting OT - I'm not acknowledging it was a thing, I just can't claim to know what happened before my time. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. The rumours are there, but are they fact? Or are they hearsay perpetuated by trainees who didn't make it? In specialty, there's standards that have to be met in evals and written exams, and a training team can't arbitrarily ignore double-fails just to keep someone going. The line has to be somewhere. In OJT, I've never seen someone CT'd without performance-based issues that couldn't be resolved.

[ads-b]

Navcan is a giant third party gov't fat,bloated, inefficient entity.

For the LAST TIME, NAVCANADA has NOTHING to do with the government. In 1996, the government sold Transport's ATC services to NAVCANADA. You sound like an uninformed airline passenger who thinks Air Canada is still owned and operated by the federal government. If the AC pilots go on strike, make sure to tell people that the greedy pilots are just over-paid government employees looking for more!

The senior trainers at Navcan have a little scam-esque scheme where they will train someone to near completion and then fail them, quite often on arbitrary (but legally-protectable) reasons, which means they pocket both sweet training hours bonuses AND future overtime "because there aren't enough controllers".

That might have been true in the past, but people want time off with their families now instead of unlimited O/T. We are paid well enough now that lifestyle is the overriding concern instead of making more money. And as was often NOT the case in the past, those who came up just short and get CT'd are often re-coursed. At my tower, many of the controllers were CT'd elsewhere before being sent here, and all are successful and excellent controllers.

My class was less than 10% if you count off the street only. There were a couple experienced nav employees that made it.

I was told the following class was 0%.

Perhaps the nav employee can give an accurate number for say the past 5 years... I'm Not going to claim to know all the numbers. I'm just going by what I saw as well as what other controllers have told me.

I'm speaking as a Tower controller here. Of the class before me (6 people), I believe 5 ended up getting their licenses (split between YYZ and the smaller Ontario regional towers). It might even be 6 for 6 but I can't remember one of the people. On my course, 60% of us got a license. The course after me had a similar pass rate. FSS is higher than that, and IFR is lower than that. But to make a blanket statement making it sound like a system-wide 0-10% success rate is the norm, you're misinformed.

There are over 400 students in training right now which I believe is an all-time record, with soon to be be 400+ with the addition of CAE. Management is finally seeing the need to do something, and things like CAE are just one change among many to better streamline hiring and training and ultimately create more successful controllers.

Did you make it through your first Tower?

I know a yyz course where there was a 0% success rate. First one CT’d was a licensed controller from USA. In fact I’ve never heard of anyone passing the Pearson course OTS.

[digits_]

.Adding the rant, endless altitude restriction to north bound traffic out of northern ontario, tower shut down in toronto, no vfr flight following, it's not like they saved money on ads-b to hire more controller, they saved money to provide suck ars service, while also being grumpy about our little bug smasher anoyying them 24/7.

Are they losing revenue by denying service? I sure hope so. Maybe GA users should start paying half their bill and include a letter with all the instances of denied service. "I'll pay the bill for the services provided. I'm not paying for denied service". The operators in Northern Ontario should send the bill to NavCanada for the additional fuel burnt with altitude restrictions. Hit the bean counters in the only place they'll notice or care.

I think you severely over estimate the revenue generated by GA. I think NavCanada management would happily decline all GA fees if it would allow them to deny service to GA consistently.