It is imminent.......be ready.

[JustaCanadian]

Insane to watch pilots pay thousands in dues to an organization (ACPA) that was actively working to make pilots work life worse. Maybe not surprising, we also pay taxes to government who often times does the same thing.

Will be interesting to see how ALPA changes the direction. Worth every dollar if they have the integrity and work for those who pay the bills.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I’m sorry but of all the ridiculous shit said on this forum by you this might top a list. You could strike, but no you sold everyone out with the long term contract. Skip the Sky Regional bullshit. No body here wants your hypocritical support.

Amen. He’s still going on about sky regional just a few days ago. Butt hurt.

I bet he wore his jazz green circle pin on his chest

Dude, I bring up SR when someone brings up our 17 year contract without including the history of how we got there!
There were at the time about 1400 pilots whose career was at risk because the company(AC) was able, in fact had no trouble filling positions at a company designed to break our union. A company that had no assets, completely funded by AC, dispatched, fuel, training all AC at arms length.
If I were 20something with a long career ahead of me, maybe a different story but most pilots at the time of that contract were 10 plus YOS, so our appetite for a fight was at an all time low.
At the time there was no federal protection, the right to follow the work was not on the table, that in my opinion was the reason we finally got rid of SR and GGN, there was no more threat because if AC gave away our flying and it caused layoffs, we would follow the work at our pay and working conditions.
To be clear, the history between AC and Jazz if far deeper and longer than SR and Jazz, the whipsaw, the seniority list lawsuit, the 757 operations, culminating the AC pilots(ACPA) giving AC the ability to start SR when at the time it literally said that Jazz was the only tier 2 provider.
I’m letting go of things, starting with AC, I’ll eventually get around to letting go of my disdain for SR pilots, but for all intents and purpose SR pilots are the main reason we gave up our ability to strike for 20 years, yes 20 years, we were 3 years in to a 10 year contract and signed a 10 year extension , 100% due to SR.

Maybe get over the SR grudge dude.

Most of us were happy to begin our 705 carreer there. We didn’t undermine Jazz. I personnally had the chance of having 2 offer at the same time, but not knowing if i’d be sent west, or having jet time was what made the cut. Not “screwing jazz over”.

[truedude]

Amen. He’s still going on about sky regional just a few days ago. Butt hurt.

I bet he wore his jazz green circle pin on his chest

Dude, I bring up SR when someone brings up our 17 year contract without including the history of how we got there!
There were at the time about 1400 pilots whose career was at risk because the company(AC) was able, in fact had no trouble filling positions at a company designed to break our union. A company that had no assets, completely funded by AC, dispatched, fuel, training all AC at arms length.
If I were 20something with a long career ahead of me, maybe a different story but most pilots at the time of that contract were 10 plus YOS, so our appetite for a fight was at an all time low.
At the time there was no federal protection, the right to follow the work was not on the table, that in my opinion was the reason we finally got rid of SR and GGN, there was no more threat because if AC gave away our flying and it caused layoffs, we would follow the work at our pay and working conditions.
To be clear, the history between AC and Jazz if far deeper and longer than SR and Jazz, the whipsaw, the seniority list lawsuit, the 757 operations, culminating the AC pilots(ACPA) giving AC the ability to start SR when at the time it literally said that Jazz was the only tier 2 provider.
I’m letting go of things, starting with AC, I’ll eventually get around to letting go of my disdain for SR pilots, but for all intents and purpose SR pilots are the main reason we gave up our ability to strike for 20 years, yes 20 years, we were 3 years in to a 10 year contract and signed a 10 year extension , 100% due to SR.

Maybe get over the SR grudge dude.

Most of us were happy to begin our 705 carreer there. We didn’t undermine Jazz. I personnally had the chance of having 2 offer at the same time, but not knowing if i’d be sent west, or having jet time was what made the cut. Not “screwing jazz over”.

You were doing the same work that had been exclusively Jazz flying and doing it for a fraction of the pay... How do you figure you weren't screwing over Jazz. The entire reason Sky was created was to put downward preasure on Jazz, and it could only work if people went to work there.

I get why people did, but don't pretend you didn't help put downward pressure on the industry by doing so. A rising tide lifts all boats. Sky was an anchor around Jazz's neck.

For too long managment has succeeded in pitting pilots agaisnt each other going back decades. This needs to stop. And it seems AC ALPA is on a unique position to do something postive, with leadership that has real integrity and the fortitude of character it will require to see it through.

[khedrei]

Dude, I bring up SR when someone brings up our 17 year contract without including the history of how we got there!
There were at the time about 1400 pilots whose career was at risk because the company(AC) was able, in fact had no trouble filling positions at a company designed to break our union. A company that had no assets, completely funded by AC, dispatched, fuel, training all AC at arms length.
If I were 20something with a long career ahead of me, maybe a different story but most pilots at the time of that contract were 10 plus YOS, so our appetite for a fight was at an all time low.
At the time there was no federal protection, the right to follow the work was not on the table, that in my opinion was the reason we finally got rid of SR and GGN, there was no more threat because if AC gave away our flying and it caused layoffs, we would follow the work at our pay and working conditions.
To be clear, the history between AC and Jazz if far deeper and longer than SR and Jazz, the whipsaw, the seniority list lawsuit, the 757 operations, culminating the AC pilots(ACPA) giving AC the ability to start SR when at the time it literally said that Jazz was the only tier 2 provider.
I’m letting go of things, starting with AC, I’ll eventually get around to letting go of my disdain for SR pilots, but for all intents and purpose SR pilots are the main reason we gave up our ability to strike for 20 years, yes 20 years, we were 3 years in to a 10 year contract and signed a 10 year extension , 100% due to SR.

Maybe get over the SR grudge dude.

Most of us were happy to begin our 705 carreer there. We didn’t undermine Jazz. I personnally had the chance of having 2 offer at the same time, but not knowing if i’d be sent west, or having jet time was what made the cut. Not “screwing jazz over”.

You were doing the same work that had been exclusively Jazz flying and doing it for a fraction of the pay... How do you figure you weren't screwing over Jazz. The entire reason Sky was created was to put downward preasure on Jazz, and it could only work if people went to work there.

I get why people did, but don't pretend you didn't help put downward pressure on the industry by doing so. A rising tide lifts all boats. Sky was an anchor around Jazz's neck.

For too long managment has succeeded in pitting pilots agaisnt each other going back decades. This needs to stop. And it seems AC ALPA is on a unique position to do something postive, with leadership that has real integrity and the fortitude of character it will require to see it through.

I couldn't imagine what "a fraction of jazz pay" would look like.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Dude, I bring up SR when someone brings up our 17 year contract without including the history of how we got there!
There were at the time about 1400 pilots whose career was at risk because the company(AC) was able, in fact had no trouble filling positions at a company designed to break our union. A company that had no assets, completely funded by AC, dispatched, fuel, training all AC at arms length.
If I were 20something with a long career ahead of me, maybe a different story but most pilots at the time of that contract were 10 plus YOS, so our appetite for a fight was at an all time low.
At the time there was no federal protection, the right to follow the work was not on the table, that in my opinion was the reason we finally got rid of SR and GGN, there was no more threat because if AC gave away our flying and it caused layoffs, we would follow the work at our pay and working conditions.
To be clear, the history between AC and Jazz if far deeper and longer than SR and Jazz, the whipsaw, the seniority list lawsuit, the 757 operations, culminating the AC pilots(ACPA) giving AC the ability to start SR when at the time it literally said that Jazz was the only tier 2 provider.
I’m letting go of things, starting with AC, I’ll eventually get around to letting go of my disdain for SR pilots, but for all intents and purpose SR pilots are the main reason we gave up our ability to strike for 20 years, yes 20 years, we were 3 years in to a 10 year contract and signed a 10 year extension , 100% due to SR.

Maybe get over the SR grudge dude.

Most of us were happy to begin our 705 carreer there. We didn’t undermine Jazz. I personnally had the chance of having 2 offer at the same time, but not knowing if i’d be sent west, or having jet time was what made the cut. Not “screwing jazz over”.

You were doing the same work that had been exclusively Jazz flying and doing it for a fraction of the pay... How do you figure you weren't screwing over Jazz. The entire reason Sky was created was to put downward preasure on Jazz, and it could only work if people went to work there.

I get why people did, but don't pretend you didn't help put downward pressure on the industry by doing so. A rising tide lifts all boats. Sky was an anchor around Jazz's neck.

For too long managment has succeeded in pitting pilots agaisnt each other going back decades. This needs to stop. And it seems AC ALPA is on a unique position to do something postive, with leadership that has real integrity and the fortitude of character it will require to see it through.

Year 1 fo at sr was more than at jazz, how is it a “for a fraction of the price”?

[Man_in_the_sky]

Dude, I bring up SR when someone brings up our 17 year contract without including the history of how we got there!
There were at the time about 1400 pilots whose career was at risk because the company(AC) was able, in fact had no trouble filling positions at a company designed to break our union. A company that had no assets, completely funded by AC, dispatched, fuel, training all AC at arms length.
If I were 20something with a long career ahead of me, maybe a different story but most pilots at the time of that contract were 10 plus YOS, so our appetite for a fight was at an all time low.
At the time there was no federal protection, the right to follow the work was not on the table, that in my opinion was the reason we finally got rid of SR and GGN, there was no more threat because if AC gave away our flying and it caused layoffs, we would follow the work at our pay and working conditions.
To be clear, the history between AC and Jazz if far deeper and longer than SR and Jazz, the whipsaw, the seniority list lawsuit, the 757 operations, culminating the AC pilots(ACPA) giving AC the ability to start SR when at the time it literally said that Jazz was the only tier 2 provider.
I’m letting go of things, starting with AC, I’ll eventually get around to letting go of my disdain for SR pilots, but for all intents and purpose SR pilots are the main reason we gave up our ability to strike for 20 years, yes 20 years, we were 3 years in to a 10 year contract and signed a 10 year extension , 100% due to SR.

Maybe get over the SR grudge dude.

Most of us were happy to begin our 705 carreer there. We didn’t undermine Jazz. I personnally had the chance of having 2 offer at the same time, but not knowing if i’d be sent west, or having jet time was what made the cut. Not “screwing jazz over”.

You were doing the same work that had been exclusively Jazz flying and doing it for a fraction of the pay... How do you figure you weren't screwing over Jazz. The entire reason Sky was created was to put downward preasure on Jazz, and it could only work if people went to work there.

I get why people did, but don't pretend you didn't help put downward pressure on the industry by doing so. A rising tide lifts all boats. Sky was an anchor around Jazz's neck.

For too long managment has succeeded in pitting pilots agaisnt each other going back decades. This needs to stop. And it seems AC ALPA is on a unique position to do something postive, with leadership that has real integrity and the fortitude of character it will require to see it through.

Jazz pilots didn’t need management to vote a b scale and remove s few perks, they did it themself. Don’t blame management for something that’s been voted by the group.

[truedude]

Maybe get over the SR grudge dude.

Most of us were happy to begin our 705 carreer there. We didn’t undermine Jazz. I personnally had the chance of having 2 offer at the same time, but not knowing if i’d be sent west, or having jet time was what made the cut. Not “screwing jazz over”.

You were doing the same work that had been exclusively Jazz flying and doing it for a fraction of the pay... How do you figure you weren't screwing over Jazz. The entire reason Sky was created was to put downward preasure on Jazz, and it could only work if people went to work there.

I get why people did, but don't pretend you didn't help put downward pressure on the industry by doing so. A rising tide lifts all boats. Sky was an anchor around Jazz's neck.

For too long managment has succeeded in pitting pilots agaisnt each other going back decades. This needs to stop. And it seems AC ALPA is on a unique position to do something postive, with leadership that has real integrity and the fortitude of character it will require to see it through.

Year 1 fo at sr was more than at jazz, how is it a “for a fraction of the price”?

And Jazz topped out at more, with a DB pension plan before Sky came along. We saw solid improvements in 2010 which we would ba have been able to build on in 2015. Instead we had the rugged pulled out from under us and had to compete with the likes of Sky for work which used to be exclusively Jazz. So Sky did nothing to lift Canadian aviation. The entire point of its existence was to once more put downward pressure on wages and pilots in Canada. That quite literally is the only reason it was created.

[Daniel Cooper]

A national general strike is on the table now. The other unions, representing millions of workers, are absolutely furious about what the Labour Minister did to the railworkers and tried to do to the WestJet AMEs.

Is there something being organized or is this more of a wishful thinking kind of statement?

No comment on the organization question. If you read the news you could likely guess who would join Air Canada pilots strike when they ignore the Labour Minister's orders to return to work. There are many unions in Canada wanting to get in on ending government union breaking. Canada is primed for a general strike right now.

[Mac08]

This thread is about the imminent strike or lockout at Air Canada.

How hard is it for you guys to sling mud at each other somewhere else???

How about start your own thread called "17 Year Contract and how we got there" on the JAZZ forum.

Have some respect for the folks who have legitimate concerns about the imminent lockout.

Jeeezuz.

Absolutely, I meant to end my post with something along those lines.
However, Ripple the mud slinging started with some asshole criticizing me for showing up and supporting you, so I let it go only for more to jump on the bandwagon, what do you expect from avcanada!

traitors (cash hogs) and "management wannabe's" trying to climb "corporate ladders" for personal gain at YOUR direct expense.

So you mean exactly what cdnavater is? He'd find a way to sell out Air Canada pilots if he could make 10,000k more a year himself. He'll have to settle for Jazz pilots unfortunately.

Forgive me if I don't want him and people alike standing next to me.

[truedude]

Absolutely, I meant to end my post with something along those lines.
However, Ripple the mud slinging started with some asshole criticizing me for showing up and supporting you, so I let it go only for more to jump on the bandwagon, what do you expect from avcanada!

traitors (cash hogs) and "management wannabe's" trying to climb "corporate ladders" for personal gain at YOUR direct expense.

So you mean exactly what cdnavater is? He'd find a way to sell out Air Canada pilots if he could make 10,000k more a year himself. He'll have to settle for Jazz pilots unfortunately.

Forgive me if I don't want him and people alike standing next to me.

What are you talking about? In what way did he sell anyone out?

[digits_]

Absolutely, I meant to end my post with something along those lines.
However, Ripple the mud slinging started with some asshole criticizing me for showing up and supporting you, so I let it go only for more to jump on the bandwagon, what do you expect from avcanada!

traitors (cash hogs) and "management wannabe's" trying to climb "corporate ladders" for personal gain at YOUR direct expense.

So you mean exactly what cdnavater is? Forgive me if I don't want him and people alike standing next to me.

Wow. People need to pass your personal vetting now before offering support?

If cdnavatar was there to support your cause (which I don't doubt), your only response should be: "thank you". Doesn't matter what happened in the past. Right or wrong, he was there now. So again, "thank you" are the words you're looking for.

[Mac08]

traitors (cash hogs) and "management wannabe's" trying to climb "corporate ladders" for personal gain at YOUR direct expense.

So you mean exactly what cdnavater is? Forgive me if I don't want him and people alike standing next to me.

Wow. People need to pass your personal vetting now before offering support?

If cdnavatar was there to support your cause (which I don't doubt), your only response should be: "thank you". Doesn't matter what happened in the past. Right or wrong, he was there now. So again, "thank you" are the words you're looking for.

People that show up should be interested in put the pilot group as a whole ahead of just themselves. cdnavater is so hell bent on getting people on here to sign garbage deals just so he can get himself a bigger paycheck while leaving the junior guys to suffer. So no, I won't thank him because in the end for him it's not about improving the lower half. Would much rather have a junior Jazz FO that will realize its ok to say no to the first garbage deal so you can get a better one.

[truedude]

So you mean exactly what cdnavater is? Forgive me if I don't want him and people alike standing next to me.

Wow. People need to pass your personal vetting now before offering support?

If cdnavatar was there to support your cause (which I don't doubt), your only response should be: "thank you". Doesn't matter what happened in the past. Right or wrong, he was there now. So again, "thank you" are the words you're looking for.

People that show up should be interested in put the pilot group as a whole ahead of just themselves. cdnavater is so hell bent on getting people on here to sign garbage deals just so he can get himself a bigger paycheck while leaving the junior guys to suffer. So no, I won't thank him because in the end for him it's not about improving the lower half. Would much rather have a junior Jazz FO that will realize its ok to say no to the first garbage deal so you can get a better one.

You are delusional if you think AC would have been back last year with another deal for Jazz.

[Dias]

Could you guys please keep the Jazz talk in the Jazz forum? For the next few weeks at least please.

[7ECA]

Jaysus people, focus on fighting the real enemy here - AC management. Your petty squabbles and bickering are exactly what the corporation wants, a distraction and misplaced anger to take your focus away from where it counts.

[cdnavater]

So you mean exactly what cdnavater is? Forgive me if I don't want him and people alike standing next to me.

Wow. People need to pass your personal vetting now before offering support?

If cdnavatar was there to support your cause (which I don't doubt), your only response should be: "thank you". Doesn't matter what happened in the past. Right or wrong, he was there now. So again, "thank you" are the words you're looking for.

People that show up should be interested in put the pilot group as a whole ahead of just themselves. cdnavater is so hell bent on getting people on here to sign garbage deals just so he can get himself a bigger paycheck while leaving the junior guys to suffer. So no, I won't thank him because in the end for him it's not about improving the lower half. Would much rather have a junior Jazz FO that will realize its ok to say no to the first garbage deal so you can get a better one.

I could drag this on by listing ALL the things I’ve done over 32 years to try make the industry better and then I could go on how other pilots came along and undid it but I won’t, Ripple asked us to take this elsewhere and that’s what I’ll do after I say this, what have you done Mac08 to make the industry better? You took a job a Jazz for shit pay, you blame me for that, you took a job at AC for shit pay, who do you blame for that?
I did not go to the demonstration for my own self fulfillment, I went there to be a number of the many who went there, strength in numbers!
I will not respond to anymore attacks on my integrity, own your shit Mac!

[cdnavater]

Amen. He’s still going on about sky regional just a few days ago. Butt hurt.

I bet he wore his jazz green circle pin on his chest

Dude, I bring up SR when someone brings up our 17 year contract without including the history of how we got there!
There were at the time about 1400 pilots whose career was at risk because the company(AC) was able, in fact had no trouble filling positions at a company designed to break our union. A company that had no assets, completely funded by AC, dispatched, fuel, training all AC at arms length.
If I were 20something with a long career ahead of me, maybe a different story but most pilots at the time of that contract were 10 plus YOS, so our appetite for a fight was at an all time low.
At the time there was no federal protection, the right to follow the work was not on the table, that in my opinion was the reason we finally got rid of SR and GGN, there was no more threat because if AC gave away our flying and it caused layoffs, we would follow the work at our pay and working conditions.
To be clear, the history between AC and Jazz if far deeper and longer than SR and Jazz, the whipsaw, the seniority list lawsuit, the 757 operations, culminating the AC pilots(ACPA) giving AC the ability to start SR when at the time it literally said that Jazz was the only tier 2 provider.
I’m letting go of things, starting with AC, I’ll eventually get around to letting go of my disdain for SR pilots, but for all intents and purpose SR pilots are the main reason we gave up our ability to strike for 20 years, yes 20 years, we were 3 years in to a 10 year contract and signed a 10 year extension , 100% due to SR.

Maybe get over the SR grudge dude.

Most of us were happy to begin our 705 carreer there. We didn’t undermine Jazz. I personnally had the chance of having 2 offer at the same time, but not knowing if i’d be sent west, or having jet time was what made the cut. Not “screwing jazz over”.

I’m trying man, I really am but throwing the 17(20) year contract in our faces when SR was the main reason we found ourselves there really gets to me.
You or someone else said the year 1 FO pay was more at SR, you were obviously late to the party, that happened years after SR started, the SR pilots were about a 40% discount overall for the exact same work, our starting pay did nothing but go down after that and pilots kept on applying so I guess there’s that!
I truly want you guys to get a fantastic contract with significant improvements, not for me, for the profession! It’s been a very long time since any group has had the upper hand, it’s time to fucking get them!

[truedude]

Could you guys please keep the Jazz talk in the Jazz forum? For the next few weeks at least please.

100% this! But at the moment it seems to be a couple mainline pilots throwing shade at a Jazz pilot who took time on his day off to go out of his way to support mainline pilots because he has a different opinion and perspective on past contracts.

The past is the past! AC pilots should have the support of every pilot on Canada.

[digits_]

So you mean exactly what cdnavater is? Forgive me if I don't want him and people alike standing next to me.

Wow. People need to pass your personal vetting now before offering support?

If cdnavatar was there to support your cause (which I don't doubt), your only response should be: "thank you". Doesn't matter what happened in the past. Right or wrong, he was there now. So again, "thank you" are the words you're looking for.

People that show up should be interested in put the pilot group as a whole ahead of just themselves. cdnavater is so hell bent on getting people on here to sign garbage deals just so he can get himself a bigger paycheck while leaving the junior guys to suffer. So no, I won't thank him because in the end for him it's not about improving the lower half. Would much rather have a junior Jazz FO that will realize its ok to say no to the first garbage deal so you can get a better one.

You don't seem to get it, do you. It doesn't matter *why* people show up. What matters is that they *do* show up to support you, signalling that yes, their goals align with yours on this particular issue. They might differ in opinion on all other matters, but for this one, they agree with you. They support you. They spend their time on you.

People are social creatures but at the same time selfish. Most, if not all, people who have showed up have done so at least in part because they believe that in some way, it will benefit them as well. You can call it 'the pilot group as a whole' if you wish, but it's just as much 'eventually it will help me'. And there's nothing wrong with that. In a way, it's a core system that causes unity: what's good for the group, will be good for me.

Either way, be grateful. AC negotiations might benefit the whole pilot group, but it mainly benefits AC pilots.

[Man_in_the_sky]

So you mean exactly what cdnavater is? Forgive me if I don't want him and people alike standing next to me.

Wow. People need to pass your personal vetting now before offering support?

If cdnavatar was there to support your cause (which I don't doubt), your only response should be: "thank you". Doesn't matter what happened in the past. Right or wrong, he was there now. So again, "thank you" are the words you're looking for.

People that show up should be interested in put the pilot group as a whole ahead of just themselves. cdnavater is so hell bent on getting people on here to sign garbage deals just so he can get himself a bigger paycheck while leaving the junior guys to suffer. So no, I won't thank him because in the end for him it's not about improving the lower half. Would much rather have a junior Jazz FO that will realize its ok to say no to the first garbage deal so you can get a better one.

Talking about “first garbage deal”

What the MEC will present us will likely be the best offer they could get. I have 100% faith that they will not leave money on the table. They will sit down till they will they got everything out of the company.

The “first garbage deal” will already be filtered, remember that when trying to “never accept the first offer”. Our negot committee already applied this principle

[Canpilot7]

Wow. People need to pass your personal vetting now before offering support?

If cdnavatar was there to support your cause (which I don't doubt), your only response should be: "thank you". Doesn't matter what happened in the past. Right or wrong, he was there now. So again, "thank you" are the words you're looking for.

People that show up should be interested in put the pilot group as a whole ahead of just themselves. cdnavater is so hell bent on getting people on here to sign garbage deals just so he can get himself a bigger paycheck while leaving the junior guys to suffer. So no, I won't thank him because in the end for him it's not about improving the lower half. Would much rather have a junior Jazz FO that will realize its ok to say no to the first garbage deal so you can get a better one.

Talking about “first garbage deal”

What the MEC will present us will likely be the best offer they could get. I have 100% faith that they will not leave money on the table. They will sit down till they will they got everything out of the company.

The “first garbage deal” will already be filtered, remember that when trying to “never accept the first offer”. Our negot committee already applied this principle

Fair point. Someone shared the memo on here from the last survey sent out by your union and it had a note of that nature: "be honest, don't try to negotiate with your own negotiating committee".

[RippleRock]

.

[RippleRock]

I refuse to tell anyone what to do, but.

It's very interesting to see how many are making themselves "busy" during the long weekend. A lockout/strike that will 100% define the rest of your career is TWO WEEKS away people!


How do you think Delta pilots would have been acting during a time like this, after a message from their MEC Chair that was as passionate and DIRECT as she could possibly be.

Answer. DIFFERENTLY


Maybe we absolutely deserve a DIFFERENT contract than our American peers, because we certainly ARE NOT acting like them. Management is taking careful notes.


Just an observation.

[Inverted2]

Any strike or lockout will be very short. Just ask CN & CP workers.

[RippleRock]

Any strike or lockout will be very short. Just ask CN & CP workers.

Maybe that will be a blessing then.

If we can't get our shit together inside a TWO WEEK window, what hope is there. That wasn't a question.