It is imminent.......be ready.

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
Hudson
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:09 pm
Location: Muskoka

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by Hudson »

No its not a good deal. Not even close. And that article is garbage.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TCAS II
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:12 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by TCAS II »

pelmet wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:19 am Air Canada offers pilots a 30% raise.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/a ... 9d36&ei=14

Is that a good deal? If not....how much? No BS about other conditions....how much?
That’s a joke. Along with “some” pension and health benefit improvements. No mention of any other numerous things that need to be fixed. The company really has no respect for their pilots.

Company playing dirty by “leaking” that information. I respect the union for being professional. AC management, not so much.

A strike is coming… be ready.
---------- ADS -----------
 
cdnavater
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2558
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:25 am

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by cdnavater »

pelmet wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:19 am Air Canada offers pilots a 30% raise.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/a ... 9d36&ei=14

Is that a good deal? If not....how much? No BS about other conditions....how much?
This is AC bargaining in public, the public will look at pilots as greedy now, who turns down 30%!
However, 30% doesn’t cover inflation in most situations at AC and what about the other QOL items, I see the number being 40% and many contract fixes(improvements), my opinion of course.
Keep in mind, Jazz pilots got a 50-30% pay improvement without the ability to strike, and as mentioned was higher before AC stepped in, given this 30% offer, it makes more sense now why they capped us.
---------- ADS -----------
 
bcflyer
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1357
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:35 am
Location: Canada

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by bcflyer »

pelmet wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:19 am Air Canada offers pilots a 30% raise.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/a ... 9d36&ei=14

Is that a good deal? If not....how much? No BS about other conditions....how much?
It’s actually 20% then 10% over 3 years. Not even close. (Doesn’t even get the 737 guys up to WJ wages.)
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
BTD
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1576
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:53 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by BTD »

pelmet wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:19 am Air Canada offers pilots a 30% raise.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/a ... 9d36&ei=14

Is that a good deal? If not....how much? No BS about other conditions....how much?
It’s trash. Besides it’s obviously not true in its entirety. Given flat pay has to disappear the pay increases will not be the same across the board. So this article contains no information.

Also, if you are paid 50% of what your peers are and yourself from 20 years ago, 20+10 is a slap in the face.
---------- ADS -----------
 
vanislepilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 141
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:01 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by vanislepilot »

I don’t know why I need to say this but
FIRST YEAR PAY MUST INCREASE BY ATLEAST 100%
---------- ADS -----------
 
TheLastonetoknow
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 39
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:42 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by TheLastonetoknow »

bcflyer wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 12:04 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:19 am Air Canada offers pilots a 30% raise.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/a ... 9d36&ei=14

Is that a good deal? If not....how much? No BS about other conditions....how much?
It’s actually 20% then 10% over 3 years. Not even close. (Doesn’t even get the 737 guys up to WJ wages.)
And the WJ wages fell short of a lot of expectations..so yeah that’s pretty bad.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TheStig
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 870
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by TheStig »

A strike this month is completely avoidable but when it happens they want to deflect blame towards the greedy pilots. This is purely public posturing, much like the pilot salaries planted in the job posting a couple months ago, the airline would like news articles to contain phrases such as, "the airline had offered pilots 30% raises to avoid a strike."
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4120
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by rudder »

TheStig wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 1:02 pm A strike this month is completely avoidable but when it happens they want to deflect blame towards the greedy pilots. This is purely public posturing, much like the pilot salaries planted in the job posting a couple months ago, the airline would like news articles to contain phrases such as, "the airline had offered pilots 30% raises to avoid a strike."
Without context, that corporate soundbite is meaningless. But perhaps that will be the goal.

Don’t look for sympathy other than from your peers and your loved ones. Fight for what you believe is fair in 2024, not what the company thought was fair in 2002/2011/2015.

Just imagine thinking that catching up to WJ would be enough? There is not a single professional pilot in Canada (including WJ) that would see that as success.

And don’t forget everything else that is deficient in the current CBA.

It is the company’s job to make saying ‘no’ a difficult decision. Doesn’t sound so difficult right now.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2377
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by goingnowherefast »

30% + inflation based off 2000 pay rates. That's probably a reasonable offer. I don't think that's what they meant though.

20% + incremental 10% is insulting compared to this quote from the article:
"Air Canada's pilots have previously said the current pay rates for aviators at U.S. rival Delta Air Lines are up to 45% higher".

Management is playing little league while the union is in the NHL. At least it's the same sport finally, but still the wrong league.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Ash Ketchum
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:52 am

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by Ash Ketchum »

first year pay needs to increase at least 100% and only one year of probationary pay max not this 4 year garbage. Formula pay should increase at least 40-50% right off the batt. If this offer is real, it's shockingly low but not surprising.
---------- ADS -----------
 
sullecpt
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:10 am

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by sullecpt »

The "new Canadians" will want to take it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Babar350
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:36 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by Babar350 »

Ash Ketchum wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 3:13 pm first year pay needs to increase at least 100% and only one year of probationary pay max not this 4 year garbage. Formula pay should increase at least 40-50% right off the batt. If this offer is real, it's shockingly low but not surprising.
Thank you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2482
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by Old fella »

This offer of 30% as released in the public domain is directed at the travelling public like myself with a “ see, we offered these pilots 30% increase and they are being unreasonable even greedy if they don’t take the offer….” Also a wink to the Federal Government aka binding arbitration.

If I was an AC pilot and this is their tactics I wouldn’t be doing any favours at all, definitely not doing overtime under any circumstances.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TCAS II
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:12 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by TCAS II »

“When it is in force, we want our pilots to remain the best-paid commercial pilots in Canada by far,” Air Canada spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick by email. “We are open to any solution to reach a reasonable settlement, including arbitration.”

They don’t care to negotiate fairly. Sadly they don’t value or respect their pilots like other major airlines.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by TCAS II on Wed Sep 04, 2024 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tigger
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:56 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by Tigger »

pelmet wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:19 am Air Canada offers pilots a 30% raise.....

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/a ... 9d36&ei=14

Is that a good deal? If not....how much? No BS about other conditions....how much?
Not even close. The only reason I can see for “leaking” this lowball “offer” is because they know we’re in the driver’s seat now that Jugmeat finally pulled his dick out of Justin’s ass (or vice-versa) and we’ll be able to strike after all.

BRING IT ON.
---------- ADS -----------
 
TCAS II
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:12 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by TCAS II »

“When it is in force, we want our pilots to remain the best-paid commercial pilots in Canada by far,” Air Canada spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick by email. “We are open to any solution to reach a reasonable settlement, including arbitration.”

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... e-deadline

A Captain on the Embraer at Porter Airlines makes 39% more hourly than the equivalent at Air Canada. So just overnight, there would need to be an increase of at least that just to match, plus “the by far”.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Airbusses
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:23 am

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by Airbusses »

I'm being lazy, but does anyone have the current WJ and PA pay tables handy?
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2377
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by goingnowherefast »

AC is saying "in Canada", because they want to continue the Canadian pilot discount. Even with that they're lying. 30% doesn't make them the best in Canada and certainly isn't world class.

Management is still talking about in Canada comparisons. That should be concerning.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dockjock
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by Dockjock »

All of the external factors are moot, at this point. The economy, pilot shortages, surveys, benchmarking data; to my mind all of that is/was in support of negotiations, ie. in a mutually respectful manner, hearing out each other’s cases and coming to an agreeable solution for both sides. Due to- factors- game theory, negotiating training, history, or merely the temperament of the company’s negotiators, it hasn’t been possible to conclude the deal fully.

Now it is only about leverage, who has it and who is willing to apply it. In my career- whether you support ACPA’s past results or not- we were never in a position to apply leverage, limited as it was. We never put ourselves there, for one, but also the airline was always on the ropes in some way or another. This is just not the case right now.

If this is about protecting the shareholders, which it isn’t, then the smart thing to do is conclude a deal before a work stoppage. But it isn’t about that, airline shareholders (self included) are braindead lottery ticket buyers. We PRINT money and don’t pay a dividend. We buy back shares and then nuke the share price with poor operations. Being an airline shareholder is a turnaround, insider play only. Being a long-term holder is moronic in a cyclical business that doesn’t pay a dividend while you wait. So what we should normally see is buying this week into next, as leaks of a deal start to occur. Too bad the usual insiders (politicans and their proxies) are busy fighting their own dumb battle right now too.

So that’s it. Nothing to do but be ready to remove your labour until we get the deal we deserve. And maybe some punitive damages to repair the relationship that the current management has done to this group. The easy way is to change the faces going forward, which will no doubt be happening as this airline continues forward into much future success.

From the political side, our leaders need to make it easier to run an airline here. Less cash machine, more support. Does anyone still think it is Air Canada who is responsible for killing the competition? You think that is something that we set out to do, and achieved? You’ve seen this place run right? Competition Bureau, lol. Canada Jetlines, Lynx, CanJet, Zoom, JetsGo, Greyhound, Canada 3000, Skyservice, Royal Airlines, Canadi>n (let’s be real here, they failed)…Air Canada didn’t kill them, the environment did. Passenger complaint bureau, whatever it’s called. Red Herring. Canada’s political, tax, transportation landscape is hostile to airlines. Look there, labour is done giving.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2537
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by DanWEC »

Tigger wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 6:18 pm
Not even close. The only reason I can see for “leaking” this lowball “offer” is because they know we’re in the driver’s seat now that Jugmeat finally pulled his dick out of Justin’s ass (or vice-versa) and we’ll be able to strike after all.

BRING IT ON.
Unfortunately it's the other way around. The NDP were vehemently opposed to imposing binding arbitration on CN, and threatened withdrawing their support based on it... and then they did.
It was likely a move they wanted to do for a while anyways and just used it as a pivot point, but what's done is done. The Liberals, and moreso the PC's, don't have unions backs at all, meanwhile the NDP, being the labour party, have been openly critical specifically of airline workers' conditions.

The ramifications of the upcoming AC strike can hardly be compared to a double rail shutdown, so I optimistically doubt any legislation will be imposed, but regardless, less NDP influence available while we fight for improvements is not a good thing. Just be glad it isn't a PC gov't right now with Raitt 2.0, because ALPA would be accepting 20% down the throat.

I'm with you though, stand strong! I'm hopeful this will finally change the landscape here.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Rooster69
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:06 am

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by Rooster69 »

It won’t be a strike. It will be a lockout.



We are seeing daily cancellations of flights. Reasons? I would hazard a guess that most pilots are not coming in on their days off. There are still a few short sighted greedy pigs adding their names for Draft. All seats. Probably see more flights cancelled as pilots and FAs book off leading up to the 17th. No one wants to get stuck on layover.


AC not bargaining in good faith. Not even bargaining now. Might have a back room deal with government to try and force binding arbitration. We will see.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by daedalusx »

Rooster69 wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2024 8:44 am It won’t be a strike. It will be a lockout.



AC not bargaining in good faith. Not even bargaining now. Might have a back room deal with government to try and force binding arbitration. We will see.
That’s exactly what’s happening right now. AC is trying to negotiate with the feds to force binding arbitration. They have zero intentions of bargaining at this time. It’s a high risk / high reward move.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
khedrei
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:27 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by khedrei »

TCAS II wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2024 1:51 am “When it is in force, we want our pilots to remain the best-paid commercial pilots in Canada by far,” Air Canada spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick by email. “We are open to any solution to reach a reasonable settlement, including arbitration.”

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... e-deadline

A Captain on the Embraer at Porter Airlines makes 39% more hourly than the equivalent at Air Canada. So just overnight, there would need to be an increase of at least that just to match, plus “the by far”.
Where are you seeing this 39% figure?

2024 pay scales show AC captain NB at $214 per hour. E2 captain at $190.

Maybe there are newer scales? Even if porter is now higher than $190, I doubt it's $295 which is approx the 39% you claim.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rudder
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4120
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Re: It is imminent.......be ready.

Post by rudder »

khedrei wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2024 8:59 am
TCAS II wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2024 1:51 am “When it is in force, we want our pilots to remain the best-paid commercial pilots in Canada by far,” Air Canada spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick by email. “We are open to any solution to reach a reasonable settlement, including arbitration.”

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... e-deadline

A Captain on the Embraer at Porter Airlines makes 39% more hourly than the equivalent at Air Canada. So just overnight, there would need to be an increase of at least that just to match, plus “the by far”.
Where are you seeing this 39% figure?

2024 pay scales show AC captain NB at $214 per hour. E2 captain at $190.

Maybe there are newer scales? Even if porter is now higher than $190, I doubt it's $295 which is approx the 39% you claim.
When a comparison of AC pilot pay and Porter pay is even a topic for discussion - something is seriously wrong.

Do you think an AA/UA/DL pilot concern themselves with Breeze pilot pay? I hope not.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”