At least Westjet ALPA had the excuse of having to deal scope re: Swoop and Sunwing and had to use a lot of their leverage on it.
What's ALPA excuse for this self flagellation humiliation ritual ?
"Uhhhh the Feds would have forced us anyways"
muh strike ready lanyards
muh we will make them
muh world standard contract
muh strike center
muh scab watch
muh HOLD THE LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
muh scorched earth
muh youtube drone overhead shots with dramatic music
absolutely cringe what a disgrace
The only ones who have any balls are the Westjet AMEs and they did it without any Michael Bay style social media outreach
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Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
I can’t see how this could ever pass. Maybe there’ll be more once we see the full deal, but there’s a shitload of QOL items we all wanted not mentioned in the summary. Deadheading, training out of the block, PBS, the list goes on and on and on. To say nothing of the shocking flat pay debacle — which is enough on its own for me to vote NO, and I’ve got 25 years in.
daedalusx wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:40 am
At least Westjet ALPA had the excuse of having to deal scope re: Swoop and Sunwing and had to use a lot of their leverage on it.
What's ALPA excuse for this self flagellation humiliation ritual ?
"Uhhhh the Feds would have forced us anyways"
muh strike ready lanyards
muh we will make them
muh world standard contract
muh strike center
muh scab watch
muh HOLD THE LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
muh scorched earth
muh youtube drone overhead shots with dramatic music
absolutely cringe what a disgrace
The only ones who have any balls are the Westjet AMEs and they did it without any Michael Bay style social media outreach
I can't argue with much of that.
This lies at the feet of our MEC. I'd like to know the exact reason they sent this dud to the Membership. I want to know who voted yes. They had us all worked up, ready to do whatever was needed. Our enthusiasm and all the "energy" they created was wasted.
The first mistake was sending in JR and HE as Negotiating leads. These guys "tells" were known, and they were sent in to play poker with guys who could read them like a book written in crayon.
There's always "next time" eh? I guess the plan is to keep our "powder dry" going forward. Where have you heard that before. Not a question.
There was a comment on another forum, "It's like a large cake was rolled into the room, anticipation sky high for our first "true" World Class Contract, with "not one penny left on the table".... and out pops Mike McKay yelling "SUPRISE"!!! Its perfect!
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Last edited by RippleRock on Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
loose wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:05 am
Junior FOs needed this the most and once again gets @#$!’d by their union and will get fcuk’d again by the senior captains. All that hype for what…
I don’t think that’s quite fair. Pretty much all the “senior captains” (of which I am one) I know agree the junior guys should get the most. That’s a huge part of why I, for one, suspect I will be voting NO.
Fingers crossed that, if (when?) this goes to arbitration after being voted down, this will be the starting point for additional gains.
Something tells me that this may have been accepted by the MEC very well knowing the majority will vote a big NO to this. Risky, yes. Maybe they wanted to give the power to the members one more time to show management that the power lies with the pilots. You have huge leverage right now. No clobberhead in the MEC would actually think this is a good deal…I think there’s more to it. They want you to vote a big NO.
Remember, this will have to be voted on by the members (pilots) before actually getting ratified. Don’t forget that United airlines pilots voted NO for their first TA and actually got something better the second time round. Never accept the first offer during negotiations and know your worth!
FOD_Vacuum wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2024 10:22 am
Something tells me that this may have been accepted by the MEC very well knowing the majority will vote a big NO to this. Risky, yes. Maybe they wanted to give the power to the members one more time to show management that the power lies with the pilots. You have huge leverage right now. No clobberhead in the MEC would actually think this is a good deal…I think there’s more to it. They want you to vote a big NO.
Remember, this will have to be voted on by the members (pilots) before actually getting ratified. Don’t forget that United airlines pilots voted NO for their first TA and actually got something better the second time round. Never accept the first offer during negotiations and know your worth!
It's a terrible idea because then all the company has to do is turn over to the feds and cry for binding arbitration.
It kills all momentum and worse of all, it shows the company that you didn't have it in you.
They called your bluff, pulled down your pants and bent you over.
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Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
Quite a shame really. It seemed like everyone was united and ready to walk.
How does one go about starting the process of firing your negotiating team? That seems like a good start and needs to be done. This is clearly their fault. They were drunk, sleeping, or didn't listen to anyone's concerns.
That being said, once this passes with 70-80% like WJ (which it will) then it will be the fault of the pilots.
I don't know anything about the vacation or QoL that was wanted, but the wages alone are enough to vote no. Anything that doesn't have starting wages at 100k (which is barely enough to live in the outskirts of YYZ or YVR) should be an immediate no vote.
I seriously cannot envision a well qualified pilot jumping ship to AC at this starting rate. You gotta have a serious infatuation with looking pretty walking down terminals. Might as well remove the AtPl and 2000 hrs requirement because there ain’t much out there.
Scope
• All Air Canada Aircraft will be operated by no less than two Air Canada Pilots on the
aircraft flight deck
• Introduced Domestic Codeshare Carrier (DCC) for service to small airports
o SPA and MPA wholly within Canada (no jets and no transborder)
• Introduced new 29:100 ASM ratio – 29 CPA and DCC ASMs combined for every 100
NJA ASMs Air Canada and its Affiliates (excluding Jetz, NRFO and Wet Lease) wholly
within Canada and the USA
• FIN ratio replaced with 29:100 ASM ratio, which reduces the number of FINs AC can
have under a CPA and codeshare
• Wet Lease of 90 days or 3 Block Periods
o Restrictions:
▪ Must not have been used in the preceding 365 days
▪ There can be no Pilots on furlough
▪ 30-day and 90-day wet lease cannot be combined into 120-day wet lease
▪ Limited to 3 aircraft per block period
o Updated current practice on payouts:
▪ Augment will be credited at applicable CA and FO rates
▪ Use the exact type or next largest aircraft on our pay table
▪ Hourly pay, including OVS and Nav Pay
• Deleted Transborder and Sixth Freedom Codeshare language
Sounds like AC would rather do codeshares than CPA's for small airports. Not sure what this means for Jazz, but AC is allowed to reduce the number of tails at Jazz to 80 in 2026.
Has AC ever talked about getting A220-100's (100-120 seats 2-class)?
I went through the embarrassing current low flat 4yr pay ... thankfully the proposed is an improvement from my sacrifice but yeah I agree that ALPA could have still squeezed more for this 1-4yr group but where else in our 'career' yos would they take it from? So easy to criticize the efforts of ALPA but I think they pushed AC management further than any past AC bargaining units ever have, not perfect for sure but the biggest step forward AC pilots have seen in a long time.
I went through the embarrassing current low flat 4yr pay ... thankfully the proposed is an improvement from my sacrifice but yeah I agree that ALPA could have still squeezed more for this 1-4yr group but where else in our 'career' yos would they take it from? So easy to criticize the efforts of ALPA but I think they pushed AC management further than any past AC bargaining units ever have, not perfect for sure but the biggest step forward AC pilots have seen in a long time.
This is why Canadian aviation is in the state it is.
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Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
This will pass. For every vocal senior captain on here sticking to principle.. there’s ten more who only care about money.
Just like the US gerontocracy.. senior captains will vote for their big raises to cash out for their last few years because they “deserve it” and leave the problems of low pay to someone else.
It’s so curious that airlines is the only place in the world where unions increase wage disparity rather than compressing it like in almost every other industry.
Good luck. So glad I’m not a part of that dumpster fire. And there’s still the carrot and stability and “pride” that will keep fresh meat working in shitty conditions for shitty wages… just like the swamper with a moose carcass on the dock hoping to fly a Beaver one day so he can look down on the next swamper.
‘Bob’ wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2024 12:23 pm
It’s so curious that airlines is the only place in the world where unions increase wage disparity rather than compressing it like in almost every other industry.
But this time was supposed to be different!/s
Unions made more sense in the days when men mined coal and you wanted rules to keep you from death. Today I don't understand the role of most unions.
‘Bob’ wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2024 12:23 pm
It’s so curious that airlines is the only place in the world where unions increase wage disparity rather than compressing it like in almost every other industry.
But this time was supposed to be different!/s
Unions made more sense in the days when men mined coal and you wanted rules to keep you from death. Today I don't understand the role of most unions.
daedalusx wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2024 8:40 am
At least Westjet ALPA had the excuse of having to deal scope re: Swoop and Sunwing and had to use a lot of their leverage on it.
What's ALPA excuse for this self flagellation humiliation ritual ?
"Uhhhh the Feds would have forced us anyways"
muh strike ready lanyards
muh we will make them
muh world standard contract
muh strike center
muh scab watch
muh HOLD THE LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!
muh scorched earth
muh youtube drone overhead shots with dramatic music
absolutely cringe what a disgrace
The only ones who have any balls are the Westjet AMEs and they did it without any Michael Bay style social media outreach
I can't argue with much of that.
This lies at the feet of our MEC. I'd like to know the exact reason they sent this dud to the Membership. I want to know who voted yes. They had us all worked up, ready to do whatever was needed. Our enthusiasm and all the "energy" they created was wasted.
The first mistake was sending in JR and HE as Negotiating leads. These guys "tells" were known, and they were sent in to play poker with guys who could read them like a book written in crayon.
There's always "next time" eh? I guess the plan is to keep our "powder dry" going forward. Where have you heard that before. Not a question.
There was a comment on another forum, "It's like a large cake was rolled into the room, anticipation sky high for our first "true" World Class Contract, with "not one penny left on the table".... and out pops Mike McKay yelling "SUPRISE"!!! Its perfect!
The “world class contract” rhetoric and verbal garbage used by both WJ and the AC MEC is nothing but a superfluous rally call to fire and inspire the troops. In 2 cases one hasn’t been or come close to delivering.
Criminal and poverty wages of flat pay will continue to eat our young for the “privilege” to fly heavies and call them selves AC pilots.
MECs at both airlines proved to be tired and exhausted in the final hours or days in this case and and here’s the final product. Absolutely and completing inadequate…
‘Bob’ wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2024 12:23 pm
It’s so curious that airlines is the only place in the world where unions increase wage disparity rather than compressing it like in almost every other industry.
Interesting idea. At the railway, everyone makes the same for the service they provide in their position. Engineers who drive make more than conductors who are working the ground who make more thane brakeman who have a bit less responsibility but do similar work. The difference seniority brings is schedule, types of runs, vacation, overtime availability, etc which often did make a difference in pay. But job for job, hour for hour, everyone made the same.
ACA Executive Summary TA1.pdf
