Play The Long Game

[throwawaycorporate]

Obviously the TA isn't "world class" but let's switch to the opportunity presented here and not jump to conclusions. I'm on the outside of negotiations here but as far as I know there has not been any official word from the MEC.

The government interfered in multiple negotiations recently. The minister could have been in the room and proposed to the MEC to put the companies offer out for a vote. The MEC and pilot group just prevented a major travel disruption and there will be good will earned for that.

Now is your chance to show the company yet again that you are united and that your MEC speaks for you. Vote no, stay unified and get the company back to the table. Sep 18 has long been the known strike deadline, by voting no it now becomes a wildcard. United pilots voted no in 2022 and did much better, Encore pilots voted no this year and got better (despite having little to no leverage).

My speculation here is that since there seem to be no QOL improvements, a no vote is expected and even desired.

Don't give up now.

[rudder]

Obviously the TA isn't "world class" but let's switch to the opportunity presented here and not jump to conclusions. I'm on the outside of negotiations here but as far as I know there has not been any official word from the MEC.

The government interfered in multiple negotiations recently. The minister could have been in the room and proposed to the MEC to put the companies offer out for a vote. The MEC and pilot group just prevented a major travel disruption and there will be good will earned for that.

Now is your chance to show the company yet again that you are united and that your MEC speaks for you. Vote no, stay unified and get the company back to the table. Sep 18 has long been the known strike deadline, by voting no it now becomes a wildcard. United pilots voted no in 2022 and did much better, Encore pilots voted no this year and got better (despite having little to no leverage).

My speculation here is that since there seem to be no QOL improvements, a no vote is expected and even desired.

Don't give up now.

If the circumstance is that this was the employer’s last-best offer prior to strike/lockout, and that the Feds suggested (threatened?) the final decision should rest with the membership, then why has it not yet been described that way by the ACA MEC?

I could see a day long debate if the MEC was faced with this scenario, but there is no reason not to explain how this TA came to be.

However, if this is actually a TA supported by a majority of the MEC, then the new lanyard should read: “Air Canada - the Captain’s airline”.

[Ash Ketchum]

Well if this sticks I guess AC captains better get used to flying mostly single pilot and doing constant unpaid line indoc because with the starting pay AC won't attract any experienced FOs.

[JHR]

Well if this sticks I guess AC captains better get used to flying mostly single pilot and doing constant unpaid line indoc because with the starting pay AC won't attract any experienced FOs.

AC will never have a shortage of qualified applicants. They know this and use it to their advantage.

[MontrealCanucks]

Well if this sticks I guess AC captains better get used to flying mostly single pilot and doing constant unpaid line indoc because with the starting pay AC won't attract any experienced FOs.

AC will never have a shortage of qualified applicants. They know this and use it to their advantage.

Hilarious. There is definitely a shortage of qualified candidates

They got people with 25 hrs multi engine on courses now.

[JHR]

That would definitely be the minority of candidates

[Ash Ketchum]

Well if this sticks I guess AC captains better get used to flying mostly single pilot and doing constant unpaid line indoc because with the starting pay AC won't attract any experienced FOs.

AC will never have a shortage of qualified applicants. They know this and use it to their advantage.

I disagree. sit in on any of our sims and you will see many 703 FOs with no jet time being hired.

[8895]

Well if this sticks I guess AC captains better get used to flying mostly single pilot and doing constant unpaid line indoc because with the starting pay AC won't attract any experienced FOs.

AC will never have a shortage of qualified applicants. They know this and use it to their advantage.

It amazes me that people still apply to AC. I guess if you’re super conservative on wanting stability and you wanna do long haul flying it would make sense? Other than that I seriously can’t figure it out. I was fairly certain I wouldn’t ever apply to AC leading up to seeing this TA, now I’m extremely certain. Think I’ll be much happier where I’m at.

[khedrei]

Well if this sticks I guess AC captains better get used to flying mostly single pilot and doing constant unpaid line indoc because with the starting pay AC won't attract any experienced FOs.

AC will never have a shortage of qualified applicants. They know this and use it to their advantage.

It amazes me that people still apply to AC. I guess if you’re super conservative on wanting stability and you wanna do long haul flying it would make sense? Other than that I seriously can’t figure it out. I was fairly certain I wouldn’t ever apply to AC leading up to seeing this TA, now I’m extremely certain. Think I’ll be much happier where I’m at.

Thats certainly one way to find a positive in this pile of trash. They made it easy to decide if I would ever join AC...

[CaptDukeNukem]

Well if this sticks I guess AC captains better get used to flying mostly single pilot and doing constant unpaid line indoc because with the starting pay AC won't attract any experienced FOs.

AC will never have a shortage of qualified applicants. They know this and use it to their advantage.

It amazes me that people still apply to AC. I guess if you’re super conservative on wanting stability and you wanna do long haul flying it would make sense? Other than that I seriously can’t figure it out. I was fairly certain I wouldn’t ever apply to AC leading up to seeing this TA, now I’m extremely certain. Think I’ll be much happier where I’m at.

Yup. Chase the metal. ITS AWESOME!

[Aerkavo]

It amazes me that people still apply to AC. I guess if you’re super conservative on wanting stability and you wanna do long haul flying it would make sense? Other than that I seriously can’t figure it out. I was fairly certain I wouldn’t ever apply to AC leading up to seeing this TA, now I’m extremely certain. Think I’ll be much happier where I’m at.

This is exactly what a junior, inexperienced person would say. I said those exact words myself when I was that person, "I'd be happy flying this Dash 8 for the rest of my career. Home most nights, no stress, blah, blah,blah." Then you get a little older, the flying becomes boring, the destinations become boring and the paycheque - well, not so good. You start to think - "If I had gone to AC 10 years ago I'd be a 320 Capt or a 787 FO, or living back in Vancouver, whatever."

Long haul flying isn't about long haul flying. It's about layovers in interesting place, working fewer days/month, bigger paycheques.

[8895]

It amazes me that people still apply to AC. I guess if you’re super conservative on wanting stability and you wanna do long haul flying it would make sense? Other than that I seriously can’t figure it out. I was fairly certain I wouldn’t ever apply to AC leading up to seeing this TA, now I’m extremely certain. Think I’ll be much happier where I’m at.

This is exactly what a junior, inexperienced person would say. I said those exact words myself when I was that person, "I'd be happy flying this Dash 8 for the rest of my career. Home most nights, no stress, blah, blah,blah." Then you get a little older, the flying becomes boring, the destinations become boring and the paycheque - well, not so good. You start to think - "If I had gone to AC 10 years ago I'd be a 320 Capt or a 787 FO, or living back in Vancouver, whatever."

Long haul flying isn't about long haul flying. It's about layovers in interesting place, working fewer days/month, bigger paycheques.

Be ignorant and call me inexperienced all you want. I’ll stick to the NB flying and not be a zombie on my days off thanks. I enjoy my time off too much to want a recovery day at the start of each set of days off. Some of my friends love the long haul stuff, others hated it. To each their own. So no the widebody stuff is extremely irrelevant to me.

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

[Aerkavo]

Be ignorant and call me inexperienced all you want. I’ll stick to the NB flying and not be a zombie on my days off thanks. I enjoy my time off too much to want a recovery day at the start of each set of days off. Some of my friends love the long haul stuff, others hated it. To each their own. So no the widebody stuff is extremely irrelevant to me.

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

Good luck to you, sincerely. I flew the Mighty Dash for 10 years and loved it - until I didn't. Flew the E-190-for 14 years and loved it - until I didn't. I called you "inexperienced" in the same way I considered myself "inexperienced" at 20,000 hours because I'd never experienced overseas flying. When I did - I regretted not doing it earlier. I've never been more tired than when I got senior and could hold transcon turns on the 190. Nothing I do on the WB comes close.

[8895]

Be ignorant and call me inexperienced all you want. I’ll stick to the NB flying and not be a zombie on my days off thanks. I enjoy my time off too much to want a recovery day at the start of each set of days off. Some of my friends love the long haul stuff, others hated it. To each their own. So no the widebody stuff is extremely irrelevant to me.

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

Good luck to you, sincerely. I flew the Mighty Dash for 10 years and loved it - until I didn't. Flew the E-190-for 14 years and loved it - until I didn't. I called you "inexperienced" in the same way I considered myself "inexperienced" at 20,000 hours because I'd never experienced overseas flying. When I did - I regretted not doing it earlier. I've never been more tired than when I got senior and could hold transcon turns on the 190. Nothing I do on the WB comes close.

Fair enough. Hopefully you’re happy with the choices you made. I’ve certainly been looking at the ones I’ll have to make and can honestly say AC doesn’t seem like the clear number one choice that they still seem to think they are. A lot of people I know at my operation are planning on staying, and sure there will be some that go (the ones still living in their parents basement with no kids or mortgage probably) but I seriously think AC is too ignorant to realize the pipeline will dry up and dry up fast. Anyone who puts their ego aside and looks at things rationally can certainly make a strong argument either way.

If this TA fixed the bottom of the scale for FO’s I have no doubt AC could vacuum up almost every pilot in the industry, but they didn’t.

[khedrei]

Be ignorant and call me inexperienced all you want. I’ll stick to the NB flying and not be a zombie on my days off thanks. I enjoy my time off too much to want a recovery day at the start of each set of days off. Some of my friends love the long haul stuff, others hated it. To each their own. So no the widebody stuff is extremely irrelevant to me.

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

Good luck to you, sincerely. I flew the Mighty Dash for 10 years and loved it - until I didn't. Flew the E-190-for 14 years and loved it - until I didn't. I called you "inexperienced" in the same way I considered myself "inexperienced" at 20,000 hours because I'd never experienced overseas flying. When I did - I regretted not doing it earlier. I've never been more tired than when I got senior and could hold transcon turns on the 190. Nothing I do on the WB comes close.

Fair enough. Hopefully you’re happy with the choices you made. I’ve certainly been looking at the ones I’ll have to make and can honestly say AC doesn’t seem like the clear number one choice that they still seem to think they are. A lot of people I know at my operation are planning on staying, and sure there will be some that go (the ones still living in their parents basement with no kids or mortgage probably) but I seriously think AC is too ignorant to realize the pipeline will dry up and dry up fast. Anyone who puts their ego aside and looks at things rationally can certainly make a strong argument either way.

If this TA fixed the bottom of the scale for FO’s I have no doubt AC could vacuum up almost every pilot in the industry, but they didn’t.

It is kind of weird when you think about the top vs bottom of the pay scale.

Looking at it from the company's side, you'd think they would want to attract young pilots as much as they can. Especially if it's true that the new classes are full of low experience and the resume pile is getting thin. That 12 year 77 CA isn't going anywhere. They aren't quitting if they get 100k raise, 50k, or 0. They still won't leave. The new guys on the other hand, they don't have anything to lose. And anyone thinking of applying from another carrier does, and this alone will make that decision easy. So yes, the union sold out the new guys, but even from the company's side this makes little sense in the short, and long term.

[Aerkavo]

That 12 year 77 CA isn't going anywhere. They aren't quitting if they get 100k raise, 50k, or 0. They still won't leave. The new guys on the other hand, they don't have anything to lose. And anyone thinking of applying from another carrier does, and this alone will make that decision easy. So yes, the union sold out the new guys, but even from the company's side this makes little sense in the short, and long term.

The fact is that most people spend much more time at the higher levels of pay than they do at the lower.

Flat pay sucks but you spend 4 years there and then get into the formula grid. Most pilots, by the time they retire, will have spent many, many years as a Capt and many of those as a WB Capt. I get the fact that it's impossible to live on the flat salary - it should be higher. But, imagine if the pay system was re-jigged so that flat pay was $150K/year but WB Capt was only $200K/year or $250K or even $300K? Total lifetime earnings would be lower than the current system.

As I said, flat pay should be higher/eliminated but reducing WB Capt pay to get this is a bad strategy.

[khedrei]

That 12 year 77 CA isn't going anywhere. They aren't quitting if they get 100k raise, 50k, or 0. They still won't leave. The new guys on the other hand, they don't have anything to lose. And anyone thinking of applying from another carrier does, and this alone will make that decision easy. So yes, the union sold out the new guys, but even from the company's side this makes little sense in the short, and long term.

The fact is that most people spend much more time at the higher levels of pay than they do at the lower.

Flat pay sucks but you spend 4 years there and then get into the formula grid. Most pilots, by the time they retire, will have spent many, many years as a Capt and many of those as a WB Capt. I get the fact that it's impossible to live on the flat salary - it should be higher. But, imagine if the pay system was re-jigged so that flat pay was $150K/year but WB Capt was only $200K/year or $250K or even $300K? Total lifetime earnings would be lower than the current system.

As I said, flat pay should be higher/eliminated but reducing WB Capt pay to get this is a bad strategy.

Math may not be my best subject, but clearly you didn't finish 3rd grade math if you can't figure this one out.

A 20k raise on today's salaries working up to a 100k raise on today's salaries is the same thing as a 60k raise working up to a 60k raise. In fact, the 60k today is more valuable than the 100k in 12 years as has been discussed previously. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

I'm not advocating for taking away from current captain salaries. I'm advocating for giving the FOs the same amount of raise. Which just means not giving them as BIG of a raise.

[IJNShiroyuki]

That 12 year 77 CA isn't going anywhere. They aren't quitting if they get 100k raise, 50k, or 0. They still won't leave. The new guys on the other hand, they don't have anything to lose. And anyone thinking of applying from another carrier does, and this alone will make that decision easy. So yes, the union sold out the new guys, but even from the company's side this makes little sense in the short, and long term.

The fact is that most people spend much more time at the higher levels of pay than they do at the lower.

Flat pay sucks but you spend 4 years there and then get into the formula grid. Most pilots, by the time they retire, will have spent many, many years as a Capt and many of those as a WB Capt. I get the fact that it's impossible to live on the flat salary - it should be higher. But, imagine if the pay system was re-jigged so that flat pay was $150K/year but WB Capt was only $200K/year or $250K or even $300K? Total lifetime earnings would be lower than the current system.

As I said, flat pay should be higher/eliminated but reducing WB Capt pay to get this is a bad strategy.

Does it matter how much money people will get paid ten years down the line if they take the bitter pill today? I got rent to pay TODAY everyday, can't go to air canada if I can't afford to just EXIST.
How about you loan some cash to new FO to help them get through? No?

[cdnavater]

That 12 year 77 CA isn't going anywhere. They aren't quitting if they get 100k raise, 50k, or 0. They still won't leave. The new guys on the other hand, they don't have anything to lose. And anyone thinking of applying from another carrier does, and this alone will make that decision easy. So yes, the union sold out the new guys, but even from the company's side this makes little sense in the short, and long term.

The fact is that most people spend much more time at the higher levels of pay than they do at the lower.

Flat pay sucks but you spend 4 years there and then get into the formula grid. Most pilots, by the time they retire, will have spent many, many years as a Capt and many of those as a WB Capt. I get the fact that it's impossible to live on the flat salary - it should be higher. But, imagine if the pay system was re-jigged so that flat pay was $150K/year but WB Capt was only $200K/year or $250K or even $300K? Total lifetime earnings would be lower than the current system.

As I said, flat pay should be higher/eliminated but reducing WB Capt pay to get this is a bad strategy.

Math may not be my best subject, but clearly you didn't finish 3rd grade math if you can't figure this one out.

A 20k raise on today's salaries working up to a 100k raise on today's salaries is the same thing as a 60k raise working up to a 60k raise. In fact, the 60k today is more valuable than the 100k in 12 years as has been discussed previously. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

I'm not advocating for taking away from current captain salaries. I'm advocating for giving the FOs the same amount of raise. Which just means not giving them as BIG of a raise.

It might be you that failed 3rd grade math, you might want to give it a little think!
To simplify it for you, I made very simple assumptions, I took 30/hr off NB Captain rates and added 30/hr to FO rates, I compounded both at 2% per year after the end of the new scale, first 4 years as NB FO, then NB CA for the remainder of the 12 year scale, compounding is your friend, current(proposed) top scale narrowbody at just 2% per year would be 403.14/hr in 12 years or 367.29 under your take from the top and give to the bottom proposal.
For the pilot starting today at the new scale, upgrading to narrowbody Captain after 4 years(reasonable) they would earn 3,029,326 at 900 hours per year, same pilot under your proposal, same assumption of upgrading after 4 years would make 2,896,147 after 12 years, the gap only gets worse from there.
You will spend many more years on the top scale, you hit that at 12 years and then the rest of your 30-35 year career at that scale, adding 30k to the bottom couple years doesn’t translate into more lifetime earnings, you spend 10% of your career there

[Aerkavo]

Does it matter how much money people will get paid ten years down the line if they take the bitter pill today? I got rent to pay TODAY everyday, can't go to air canada if I can't afford to just EXIST.
How about you loan some cash to new FO to help them get through? No?

Did you read my post? I said flat pay should be higher. Of course. But all of this energy towards "fixing" flat pay should be tempered with the idea that the majority of a pilot's time is spent on formula. Do I have to say it 3 times? 4 times? Yes, flat pay must be increased but the real value comes from increases to formula.

[Joeschumer]

I don’t think you are understanding that today’s money is worth more than tomorrows. The earnings in year 1,2,3,4… , these days are usually pilots between 25-35 years old most likely with debt to pay off. These are often critical years in a persons life to settle down, but a house and start a family. Let’s say in one proposal a pilot would make 100k more the first 4 years of employment. This 100k could be the difference between being out of debt, qualifying for a mortgage to buy a house and starting their investments early OR none of the above without that 100k. Who cares if 12 years down the line you may potentially have acquired “more” money if 100k in 12 years is worth 30k less anyways and it probably won’t even be more actual net worth to you because you would have lacked an early start on investments.

By having the means to start investing and owning property early in your life is the real goal everybody seems to have forgotten about.

The fact is that most people spend much more time at the higher levels of pay than they do at the lower.

Flat pay sucks but you spend 4 years there and then get into the formula grid. Most pilots, by the time they retire, will have spent many, many years as a Capt and many of those as a WB Capt. I get the fact that it's impossible to live on the flat salary - it should be higher. But, imagine if the pay system was re-jigged so that flat pay was $150K/year but WB Capt was only $200K/year or $250K or even $300K? Total lifetime earnings would be lower than the current system.

As I said, flat pay should be higher/eliminated but reducing WB Capt pay to get this is a bad strategy.

Math may not be my best subject, but clearly you didn't finish 3rd grade math if you can't figure this one out.

A 20k raise on today's salaries working up to a 100k raise on today's salaries is the same thing as a 60k raise working up to a 60k raise. In fact, the 60k today is more valuable than the 100k in 12 years as has been discussed previously. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

I'm not advocating for taking away from current captain salaries. I'm advocating for giving the FOs the same amount of raise. Which just means not giving them as BIG of a raise.

It might be you that failed 3rd grade math, you might want to give it a little think!
To simplify it for you, I made very simple assumptions, I took 30/hr off NB Captain rates and added 30/hr to FO rates, I compounded both at 2% per year after the end of the new scale, first 4 years as NB FO, then NB CA for the remainder of the 12 year scale, compounding is your friend, current(proposed) top scale narrowbody at just 2% per year would be 403.14/hr in 12 years or 367.29 under your take from the top and give to the bottom proposal.
For the pilot starting today at the new scale, upgrading to narrowbody Captain after 4 years(reasonable) they would earn 3,029,326 at 900 hours per year, same pilot under your proposal, same assumption of upgrading after 4 years would make 2,896,147 after 12 years, the gap only gets worse from there.
You will spend many more years on the top scale, you hit that at 12 years and then the rest of your 30-35 year career at that scale, adding 30k to the bottom couple years doesn’t translate into more lifetime earnings, you spend 10% of your career there

[just clearing the trees]

That 12 year 77 CA isn't going anywhere. They aren't quitting if they get 100k raise, 50k, or 0. They still won't leave. The new guys on the other hand, they don't have anything to lose.

What kind of weird mental gymnastics would it take to want the job bad enough that you'd swallow the bullshit initial pay, only to quit after you get 40% raise?

[daedalusx]

I don’t think you are understanding that today’s money is worth more than tomorrows. The earnings in year 1,2,3,4… , these days are usually pilots between 25-35 years old most likely with debt to pay off. These are often critical years in a persons life to settle down, but a house and start a family. Let’s say in one proposal a pilot would make 100k more the first 4 years of employment. This 100k could be the difference between being out of debt, qualifying for a mortgage to buy a house and starting their investments early OR none of the above without that 100k. Who cares if 12 years down the line you may potentially have acquired “more” money if 100k in 12 years is worth 30k less anyways and it probably won’t even be more actual net worth to you because you would have lacked an early start on investments.

By having the means to start investing and owning property early in your life is the real goal everybody seems to have forgotten about.

Math may not be my best subject, but clearly you didn't finish 3rd grade math if you can't figure this one out.

A 20k raise on today's salaries working up to a 100k raise on today's salaries is the same thing as a 60k raise working up to a 60k raise. In fact, the 60k today is more valuable than the 100k in 12 years as has been discussed previously. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

I'm not advocating for taking away from current captain salaries. I'm advocating for giving the FOs the same amount of raise. Which just means not giving them as BIG of a raise.

It might be you that failed 3rd grade math, you might want to give it a little think!
To simplify it for you, I made very simple assumptions, I took 30/hr off NB Captain rates and added 30/hr to FO rates, I compounded both at 2% per year after the end of the new scale, first 4 years as NB FO, then NB CA for the remainder of the 12 year scale, compounding is your friend, current(proposed) top scale narrowbody at just 2% per year would be 403.14/hr in 12 years or 367.29 under your take from the top and give to the bottom proposal.
For the pilot starting today at the new scale, upgrading to narrowbody Captain after 4 years(reasonable) they would earn 3,029,326 at 900 hours per year, same pilot under your proposal, same assumption of upgrading after 4 years would make 2,896,147 after 12 years, the gap only gets worse from there.
You will spend many more years on the top scale, you hit that at 12 years and then the rest of your 30-35 year career at that scale, adding 30k to the bottom couple years doesn’t translate into more lifetime earnings, you spend 10% of your career there

High IQ post right there but the boomers won't relate. They bought their houses in the 'burbs for 80K and sold them for 2.2M

[cdnavater]

I don’t think you are understanding that today’s money is worth more than tomorrows. The earnings in year 1,2,3,4… , these days are usually pilots between 25-35 years old most likely with debt to pay off. These are often critical years in a persons life to settle down, but a house and start a family. Let’s say in one proposal a pilot would make 100k more the first 4 years of employment. This 100k could be the difference between being out of debt, qualifying for a mortgage to buy a house and starting their investments early OR none of the above without that 100k. Who cares if 12 years down the line you may potentially have acquired “more” money if 100k in 12 years is worth 30k less anyways and it probably won’t even be more actual net worth to you because you would have lacked an early start on investments.

By having the means to start investing and owning property early in your life is the real goal everybody seems to have forgotten about.

It might be you that failed 3rd grade math, you might want to give it a little think!
To simplify it for you, I made very simple assumptions, I took 30/hr off NB Captain rates and added 30/hr to FO rates, I compounded both at 2% per year after the end of the new scale, first 4 years as NB FO, then NB CA for the remainder of the 12 year scale, compounding is your friend, current(proposed) top scale narrowbody at just 2% per year would be 403.14/hr in 12 years or 367.29 under your take from the top and give to the bottom proposal.
For the pilot starting today at the new scale, upgrading to narrowbody Captain after 4 years(reasonable) they would earn 3,029,326 at 900 hours per year, same pilot under your proposal, same assumption of upgrading after 4 years would make 2,896,147 after 12 years, the gap only gets worse from there.
You will spend many more years on the top scale, you hit that at 12 years and then the rest of your 30-35 year career at that scale, adding 30k to the bottom couple years doesn’t translate into more lifetime earnings, you spend 10% of your career there

High IQ post right there but the boomers won't relate. They bought their houses in the 'burbs for 80K and sold them for 2.2M

How about @#$! you! Ummmm k!
I didn’t buy my house for 80k, it’s certainly not worth 2.2 million, is that a real thing, not in my part of the country, that’s for damn sure.
You fucktards need to understand compounding raises and you also need to realize there is no scenario where any union gives new hires a 100k raise and zero to the top, you fucktards also need to realize that the pilots at the top have endured a continuous decrease in their discretionary income and lastly, YOU WILL SPEND WAY MORE TIME IN THE TOP THAN THE BOTTOM.
I also had student debt to pay off, took 10 years and I managed to save enough for a down payment on a small house, then sold after 10 years, only managed to double what I paid for it, so if you factor the renovations and interest, I didn’t “profit” off it, current house listed for twice what I paid 15 years ago, many improvements in the 200k range, after interest I might profit 150k off this one, so don’t give me this wealthy boomer crap, I had to file bankruptcy after 9/11 when all the jobs all dried up.
With my extremely generous take 30/hr off the Captain pay and put in on the FO pay, that would be a 50/hr increase from current and it still ended up less after 12 years.
The problem with today’s kids, they want it all fucking now and don’t give a shit where it comes from!

[digits_]

I don’t think you are understanding that today’s money is worth more than tomorrows. The earnings in year 1,2,3,4… , these days are usually pilots between 25-35 years old most likely with debt to pay off. These are often critical years in a persons life to settle down, but a house and start a family. Let’s say in one proposal a pilot would make 100k more the first 4 years of employment. This 100k could be the difference between being out of debt, qualifying for a mortgage to buy a house and starting their investments early OR none of the above without that 100k. Who cares if 12 years down the line you may potentially have acquired “more” money if 100k in 12 years is worth 30k less anyways and it probably won’t even be more actual net worth to you because you would have lacked an early start on investments.

By having the means to start investing and owning property early in your life is the real goal everybody seems to have forgotten about.

High IQ post right there but the boomers won't relate. They bought their houses in the 'burbs for 80K and sold them for 2.2M

How about @#$! you! Ummmm k!
I didn’t buy my house for 80k, it’s certainly not worth 2.2 million, is that a real thing, not in my part of the country, that’s for damn sure.
You fucktards need to understand compounding raises and you also need to realize there is no scenario where any union gives new hires a 100k raise and zero to the top, you fucktards also need to realize that the pilots at the top have endured a continuous decrease in their discretionary income and lastly, YOU WILL SPEND WAY MORE TIME IN THE TOP THAN THE BOTTOM.
I also had student debt to pay off, took 10 years and I managed to save enough for a down payment on a small house, then sold after 10 years, only managed to double what I paid for it, so if you factor the renovations and interest, I didn’t “profit” off it, current house listed for twice what I paid 15 years ago, many improvements in the 200k range, after interest I might profit 150k off this one, so don’t give me this wealthy boomer crap, I had to file bankruptcy after 9/11 when all the jobs all dried up.
With my extremely generous take 30/hr off the Captain pay and put in on the FO pay, that would be a 50/hr increase from current and it still ended up less after 12 years.
The problem with today’s kids, they want it all fucking now and don’t give a shit where it comes from!

I'm curious, what do you find an appropriate ratio of pay between an FO and a CPT?

For what it's worth, today's 'kids' are likely the only ones still accepting the low starting wages. The older more established folk in life are likely more inclined to pass.