Recall of the NC

[Texarcana]

If that was invoked, why wouldn't the MEC come out and say that right away? Why wouldn't they go to the media and disclose that the minister forced a deal? ....because it didn't happen. Plain and simple.

You dont know that yet.

While it may end up you are correct, today, you speculate.

I give the MEC more credit than to toss out a mouthful of emotionally charged vomit. This MEC has earned my trust and they have it until the end.

In solidarity, top 100 seniority.

[braaap Braap]

I'm not defending the deal, but I am defending the NC & MEC.

They aren't your enemy, nor the problem here.

I disagree. Why are you defending them when all the evidence points to them selling us out?

This narrative that there was some X-files like government conspiracy by the labour minister behind the scenes is ludicrous and pure fantasy. It's a poor excuse likely being spread as rumour by those responsible. And those who are in denial, trying way to find a way to cope with the betrayal, are eating it up. Because the reality that the NC saw $$$ for themselves and caved is much harder to swallow.

The complete silence from the MEC since announcing the TA is also a giant red flag. We were in the best strike position we were to likely ever have and it was thrown away. They know this and really what can they say at this point? Better to keep quiet and let the rumour mill churn.

I have zero confidence in this NC and there is no way they should be allowed to continue to "negotiate" on our behalf when they clearly do not have our best interests in mind. They capitulated to the company with a 98% strike mandate and presented us a deal that frankly could just as easily have come out of arbitration - it's that bad. We have gained nothing and this is a clear win for the company. Those are the facts.

I get that everyone is angry, but don't be so quick to throw the MEC under the bus. I guarantee the MoL was sitting in and participating this last weekend.

---------------------

Vote on Employer’s Offer

Marginal note:Minister may order vote to be held

108.1 (1) Where notice to bargain collectively has been given under this Part, and the Minister is of the opinion that it is in the public interest that the employees in the affected bargaining unit be given the opportunity to accept or reject the offer of the employer last received by the trade union in respect of all matters remaining in dispute between the parties, the Minister may

(a) on such terms and conditions as the Minister considers appropriate, direct that a vote of the employees in the bargaining unit to accept or reject the offer be held as soon as possible; and

(b) designate the Board, or any other person or body, to be in charge of conducting that vote.

Did you even read the section? If that was what happened (or was threatened to happen) then the MEC could have just sat back thrown their hands in the air and let the CIRB take the wheel and be the fall guy.

[thepoors]

It's not that hard to infer... Because that would probably be bargaining in bad faith. Obviously if the MEC came right out and said they were forced to release this, everyone would assume it automatically stinks.

But it does stink. Worse than anything I've ever smelled.

Exactly.

[thepoors]

If that was invoked, why wouldn't the MEC come out and say that right away? Why wouldn't they go to the media and disclose that the minister forced a deal? ....because it didn't happen. Plain and simple.

You dont know that yet.

While it may end up you are correct, today, you speculate.

I give the MEC more credit than to toss out a mouthful of emotionally charged vomit. This MEC has earned my trust and they have it until the end.

In solidarity, top 100 seniority.

We're on day 3 of them taking a massive shit on the bed and disappearing. How long does it take to either own it or say otherwise? This is not acceptable.

[altiplano]

I'm not defending the deal, but I am defending the NC & MEC.

They aren't your enemy, nor the problem here.

I disagree. Why are you defending them when all the evidence points to them selling us out?

This narrative that there was some X-files like government conspiracy by the labour minister behind the scenes is ludicrous and pure fantasy. It's a poor excuse likely being spread as rumour by those responsible. And those who are in denial, trying way to find a way to cope with the betrayal, are eating it up. Because the reality that the NC saw $$$ for themselves and caved is much harder to swallow.

The complete silence from the MEC since announcing the TA is also a giant red flag. We were in the best strike position we were to likely ever have and it was thrown away. They know this and really what can they say at this point? Better to keep quiet and let the rumour mill churn.

I have zero confidence in this NC and there is no way they should be allowed to continue to "negotiate" on our behalf when they clearly do not have our best interests in mind. They capitulated to the company with a 98% strike mandate and presented us a deal that frankly could just as easily have come out of arbitration - it's that bad. We have gained nothing and this is a clear win for the company. Those are the facts.

Not getting the deal we wanted and selling us out are two different things.

Don't underestimate the position the company takes here. They dig in, they won't move on certain things. There isn't just a bag of money that we choose and direct. Every change, every article, every line, every amount requires the company to agree.

I think we can agree that the company goal is always to divide us - this TA reflects that - don't give them that too. The company is the problem here.

Look at how much we have achieved under this leadership, be disappointed, tell your leadership we need more, but don't sink the boat - we still need it.

We all need to be more respectful to our colleagues that have devoted the past year and a half of their lives sitting in rooms arguing with the traitor snakes we should all loath. No doubt we didn't get all the way there, I'm sure we made mistakes, but that isn't an indictment of the integrity or intention of our NC/MEC members.

I think we'll get a No and need to send them out for another round, support them and HOLD THE LINE.

[Texarcana]

If that was invoked, why wouldn't the MEC come out and say that right away? Why wouldn't they go to the media and disclose that the minister forced a deal? ....because it didn't happen. Plain and simple.

You dont know that yet.

While it may end up you are correct, today, you speculate.

I give the MEC more credit than to toss out a mouthful of emotionally charged vomit. This MEC has earned my trust and they have it until the end.

In solidarity, top 100 seniority.

We're on day 3 of them taking a massive shit on the bed and disappearing. How long does it take to either own it or say otherwise? This is not acceptable.

Respectfully, this is a BIG deal. Even to a lay person, this is a big deal. The accusations are a big deal.

Put yourself in the position of the MEC, currently considering all the legal advice they are being bombarded with.

We will hear from the MEC. In the mean time, stay focused, hug your kids if you have some, fly your plane safe. Book off if you feel stressed out.

And, Im on your side.

In solidarity, top 100 seniority.

[thepoors]

I'm not defending the deal, but I am defending the NC & MEC.

They aren't your enemy, nor the problem here.

I disagree. Why are you defending them when all the evidence points to them selling us out?

This narrative that there was some X-files like government conspiracy by the labour minister behind the scenes is ludicrous and pure fantasy. It's a poor excuse likely being spread as rumour by those responsible. And those who are in denial, trying way to find a way to cope with the betrayal, are eating it up. Because the reality that the NC saw $$$ for themselves and caved is much harder to swallow.

The complete silence from the MEC since announcing the TA is also a giant red flag. We were in the best strike position we were to likely ever have and it was thrown away. They know this and really what can they say at this point? Better to keep quiet and let the rumour mill churn.

I have zero confidence in this NC and there is no way they should be allowed to continue to "negotiate" on our behalf when they clearly do not have our best interests in mind. They capitulated to the company with a 98% strike mandate and presented us a deal that frankly could just as easily have come out of arbitration - it's that bad. We have gained nothing and this is a clear win for the company. Those are the facts.

Not getting the deal we wanted and selling us out are two different things.

Don't underestimate the position the company takes here. They dig in, they won't move on certain things. There isn't just a bag of money that we choose and direct. Every change, every article, every line, every amount requires the company to agree.

I think we can agree that the company goal is always to divide us - this TA reflects that - don't give them that too. The company is the problem here.

Look at how much we have achieved under this leadership, be disappointed, tell your leadership we need more, but don't sink the boat - we still need it.

We all need to be more respectful to our colleagues that have devoted the past year and a half of their lives sitting in rooms arguing with the traitor snakes we should all loath. No doubt we didn't get all the way there, I'm sure we made mistakes, but that isn't an indictment of the integrity or intention of our NC/MEC members.

I think we'll get a No and need to send then out for another round, support them and HOLD THE LINE.

I'll say it again: 98% strike mandate...ignored. This can not be overlooked or understated. They did not do what we, the membership, tasked them to do.

Yes, the company is the enemy. Of course they were going to play hard ball and say there's nothing left to give. How is this a hot take? Who was surprised by that? They've been making that very clear for over a year now. How did the NC stumble so badly at this first hurdle?

We gave the MEC the power of a strike to make the company budge. That's all they had to do and they did exactly the opposite. For me that absolutely brings their integrity into question, especially after all the promises made.

[khedrei]

Perhaps this is just a big misunderstanding. When AC told the media they want their pilots to be the best paid pilots in Canada they meant "other than new pilots, and expect for Flair, Morningstar and Corporate gigs and probably soon to be Porter".

Sorry about the confusion.

If this does get voted down and this negotiating team wants to save face, I'd highly suggest taking 40k from the senior guys and giving it to the new guys. Make the raises equal across the board.

[Protonpilot]

We've set the baseline with this TA, if we vote it down, we come back and tweak the parts that need the most work. The FO formula, first year pay, adjust that daily guarantee/vacation improvement and timeline and move forward.

Then 2026 is on us and we're back again and building on this.

I assume by 'tweak', you mean get more money from the Company? Or do you mean move money around from other places in the TA?

[bcflyer]

I disagree. Why are you defending them when all the evidence points to them selling us out?

This narrative that there was some X-files like government conspiracy by the labour minister behind the scenes is ludicrous and pure fantasy. It's a poor excuse likely being spread as rumour by those responsible. And those who are in denial, trying way to find a way to cope with the betrayal, are eating it up. Because the reality that the NC saw $$$ for themselves and caved is much harder to swallow.

The complete silence from the MEC since announcing the TA is also a giant red flag. We were in the best strike position we were to likely ever have and it was thrown away. They know this and really what can they say at this point? Better to keep quiet and let the rumour mill churn.

I have zero confidence in this NC and there is no way they should be allowed to continue to "negotiate" on our behalf when they clearly do not have our best interests in mind. They capitulated to the company with a 98% strike mandate and presented us a deal that frankly could just as easily have come out of arbitration - it's that bad. We have gained nothing and this is a clear win for the company. Those are the facts.

Not getting the deal we wanted and selling us out are two different things.

Don't underestimate the position the company takes here. They dig in, they won't move on certain things. There isn't just a bag of money that we choose and direct. Every change, every article, every line, every amount requires the company to agree.

I think we can agree that the company goal is always to divide us - this TA reflects that - don't give them that too. The company is the problem here.

Look at how much we have achieved under this leadership, be disappointed, tell your leadership we need more, but don't sink the boat - we still need it.

We all need to be more respectful to our colleagues that have devoted the past year and a half of their lives sitting in rooms arguing with the traitor snakes we should all loath. No doubt we didn't get all the way there, I'm sure we made mistakes, but that isn't an indictment of the integrity or intention of our NC/MEC members.

I think we'll get a No and need to send then out for another round, support them and HOLD THE LINE.

I'll say it again: 98% strike mandate...ignored. This can not be overlooked or understated. They did not do what we, the membership, tasked them to do.

Yes, the company is the enemy. Of course they were going to play hard ball and say there's nothing left to give. How is this a hot take? Who was surprised by that? They've been making that very clear for over a year now. How did the NC stumble so badly at this first hurdle?

We gave the MEC the power of a strike to make the company budge. That's all they had to do and they did exactly the opposite. For me that absolutely brings their integrity into question, especially after all the promises made.

That’s a lot of accusations to make before hearing from the MEC. Have you reached out to your union rep yet? Have you taken the time to ask them personally why they did what they did? Or are you just hiding behind your keyboard mad because the first offer didn’t meet your expectations?
All the power is still with the pilot group. Vote no and move on. Our strike mandate is still valid.

[hithere]

According to the “vocal minority” phenomenon, for every one person losing their sh$t here(several of whom don’t even work for AC) and in crew rooms, road shows etc there are many more that will quietly vote yes for this TA. We just don’t hear from the silent majority because they are well… silent, and no amount of arguing will change that.One gets a very skewed opinion of the potential success of this TA by listening to the talking heads here. This thing will pass, probably in the 65% range

[Xander]

According to the “vocal minority” phenomenon, for every one person losing their sh$t here(several of whom don’t even work for AC) and in crew rooms, road shows etc there are many more that will quietly vote yes for this TA. We just don’t hear from the silent majority because they are well… silent, and no amount of arguing will change that.One gets a very skewed opinion of the potential success of this TA by listening to the talking heads here. This thing will pass, probably in the 65% range

100% this.

[Icamefromspace]

Perhaps this is just a big misunderstanding. When AC told the media they want their pilots to be the best paid pilots in Canada they meant "other than new pilots, and expect for Flair, Morningstar and Corporate gigs and probably soon to be Porter".

Sorry about the confusion.

If this does get voted down and this negotiating team wants to save face, I'd highly suggest taking 40k from the senior guys and giving it to the new guys. Make the raises equal across the board.

I know first couple years pay is terrible but taking 40k from step 12 where a pilot will likely spend 10+ years of their career and give it to year 1, where a pilot will spend exactly 1 year of their career at, is just stupid.

[khedrei]

It's not just year 1. They spend a year at year 1 a year at year 2, year 3 etc. all of the lower scales were sacrificed in favour of the top end. Again, todays money is worth more than tomorrows. How hard is this concept to understand.

[Icamefromspace]

It's not just year 1. They spend a year at year 1 a year at year 2, year 3 etc. all of the lower scales were sacrificed in favour of the top end. Again, todays money is worth more than tomorrows. How hard is this concept to understand.

Because almost every pilot will be spending 10-25 years at step 12. So sacrificing 40k a year at those levels is giving up 400k-1million in career earnings to bolster years 1-4 by a marginal amount. After year 4 a pilot will be on normal formula pay. I agree todays money is worth more than tomorrows but the math on this is nonsensical.

If there was a way to credit a reduction in step 12 proportionally to the lower levels, ie a reduction of step 12 pay by $1/hr would be credited as an increase to step 1 pay by $15-20/hour, that would be nice. But that would also never happen in a million years because companys like this only think in terms of quarterly profits and that math just wouldn't work for them.

[phenix]

Perhaps this is just a big misunderstanding. When AC told the media they want their pilots to be the best paid pilots in Canada they meant "other than new pilots, and expect for Flair, Morningstar and Corporate gigs and probably soon to be Porter".

Sorry about the confusion.

If this does get voted down and this negotiating team wants to save face, I'd highly suggest taking 40k from the senior guys and giving it to the new guys. Make the raises equal across the board.

If I remember, being the best paid pilots in Canada was way too low for them. They were going to be on par with Delta, United and American. After all, Air Canada is not WestJet.
Looking tough on social media

[cdnavater]

It's not just year 1. They spend a year at year 1 a year at year 2, year 3 etc. all of the lower scales were sacrificed in favour of the top end. Again, todays money is worth more than tomorrows. How hard is this concept to understand.

It’s you that doesn’t get it, I spelled it out like I would to a third grader,
I took 30/hr off the Captain pay, applied it to FO pay, over 12 years you will earn 130,000 less.
At only 2% per year increase @900 hours/yr;
The 12 year Captain pay untouched, in 12 years is 403, 13-411.20, 14-419.43, 15-427.86, 16-436.37, 17-445.09, 18-453.99, 19-463.07, 20-472.33
The 12 year Captain pay your way, in 12 years is 367.29, 13-374.66, 14-382.12, 15-389.77, 16-397.46, 17-405.52, 18-413.62, 19-421.90, 20-430.34
20 years=6,204,922
20 years=5,789,998
Difference of 414,924 over 20 years!
So, YOU would rather have an extra 30/hr over the new rates, take away that 30 from the Captain rate, earn an extra 120k over the first 4 years instead of 415k over 20, you might want to rethink your stance!
The new contract should have been better for the first 4 years, no question but not at the expense of future earnings! After 4 years, if you’re still an FO, the pay goes up between 40 and 50/hr depending on pay group, so no point in jigging with all the numbers, 4 years as FO currently is a reasonable assumption, you will earn far more over your career by not taking from the top to give to the bottom. After the first four years the FO pay seems to be tied to some formula at around 55-60% of Captain pay, could be better there too but the math is the math, higher Captain pay will equate to higher FO pay.
If you still don’t see it, well, what can I say, do the math yourself

[thepoors]

It's not just year 1. They spend a year at year 1 a year at year 2, year 3 etc. all of the lower scales were sacrificed in favour of the top end. Again, todays money is worth more than tomorrows. How hard is this concept to understand.

It’s you that doesn’t get it, I spelled it out like I would to a third grader,
I took 30/hr off the Captain pay, applied it to FO pay, over 12 years you will earn 130,000 less.
At only 2% per year increase @900 hours/yr;
The 12 year Captain pay untouched, in 12 years is 403, 13-411.20, 14-419.43, 15-427.86, 16-436.37, 17-445.09, 18-453.99, 19-463.07, 20-472.33
The 12 year Captain pay your way, in 12 years is 367.29, 13-374.66, 14-382.12, 15-389.77, 16-397.46, 17-405.52, 18-413.62, 19-421.90, 20-430.34
20 years=6,204,922
20 years=5,789,998
Difference of 414,924 over 20 years!
So, YOU would rather have an extra 30/hr over the new rates, take away that 30 from the Captain rate, earn an extra 120k over the first 4 years instead of 415k over 20, you might want to rethink your stance!

I'm sure a lot of guys who can't afford to move out of their parents basement, can't afford a house, can't afford rent, can't afford to feed their kids, are forced to commute, etc...etc... would gladly make that trade.

Need I remind you AC isn't a first job for anyone. People who are 25-35 are trying to get their lives together and can't because the pay is so shit. Everything goes on hold. That 400k 20 years from now doesn't do them any good if they can't get their lives started in the present.

You're also extrapolating a 3 year contract into 20 years. It's not accurate. The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

[Bede]

It's not just year 1. They spend a year at year 1 a year at year 2, year 3 etc. all of the lower scales were sacrificed in favour of the top end. Again, todays money is worth more than tomorrows. How hard is this concept to understand.

That's true, but what's your discount rate? (google Net Present Value)

What's better $80k now or $200k in 10 years? How about $80k now and $150k in 10 years? $80k or $300k in 10 years?

[onspeed]

Where you all not promised a north american industry best contract or strike? ya got neither!!!

Can't wait to hear why.

PS. your union does not need you to make excuses for its performance.

[khedrei]

It's not just year 1. They spend a year at year 1 a year at year 2, year 3 etc. all of the lower scales were sacrificed in favour of the top end. Again, todays money is worth more than tomorrows. How hard is this concept to understand.

That's true, but what's your discount rate? (google Net Present Value)

What's better $80k now or $200k in 10 years? How about $80k now and $150k in 10 years? $80k or $300k in 10 years?

Thanks Bede. I will have a look and try to educate myself. That bring said, take this into consideration.

Round numbers.

75k salary today vs 400k in 10 years is much different than 150k now vs 475k in 10 years. Or even 200k vs 575k in 10 years.

The difference in all of the examples is 375k. But as I mentioned before, once you pass a certain income level life stabilizes and almost everything is a luxury. That's why the big vs little raise in this situation is so insulting. 20k for the FOs does more for them than 100k does for a captain. Cost of living is high, but it's only so high. Once you can afford to have a house, car, vacation, dinner out, the rest is just saved or invested or wasted/fun.

Getting to an actual living wage for the area of the country is more important than an extra 200k or 400k career earnings. No one making 250k is struggling. People making 57k however, are.

If I was given the choice of making 3.8 million with just one job and a comfortable stable life or 4.5 million throughout my career but have to live in a crash pad for 2 years living on KD away from my family I know which one I would choose. In that situation I'd rather settle for a different option. How about 150k today, and 300k in 10 years.

[GIVCE!]

All good …until at 10 years you remember you are now ‘UNDERPAID’. It will take longer than one generation of pilots to fix the legacy problems of the industry in Canada. Baby steps.

[digits_]

Maybe the biggest error everyone here is making, is calculating the gains over 12 or 20 years.

The contract is for 4 years. After that, there are no guarantees and everything will change again.

In those 4 years, (senior)captains will make 400k extra than what they would have made under the current contract.
(junior) FOs will make about 95 k extra than what they would have made under the current contract.

[khedrei]

Maybe the biggest error everyone here is making, is calculating the gains over 12 or 20 years.

The contract is for 4 years. After that, there are no guarantees and everything will change again.

In those 4 years, (senior)captains will make 400k extra than what they would have made under the current contract.
(junior) FOs will make about 95 k extra than what they would have made under the current contract.

No... the rates will go up 2% minimum per year. Ask mr bankruptcy. I swear I'll be able to pay my loan back as soon as I get my next raise.

[a2btrail]

Recalling of the NC makes no sense no matter if you are senior or jr, whether you will vote yes or no. Time is of the essence no matter which way you look at. Recalling and voting takes time. The group does not have this luxury.