Play The Long Game

[just clearing the trees]

the guy on 60k is suffering.

If you're legitimately suffering by making 60k, why did you take the job in the first place? You made a terrible life choice if you accepted a job that you knew would make you "suffer."

[AirCandida]

the guy on 60k is suffering.

If you're legitimately suffering by making 60k, why did you take the job in the first place? You made a terrible life choice if you accepted a job that you knew would make you "suffer."

Easy, HR/mgmt wants masochists pilots, those sadists fu*ks

[thepoors]

the guy on 60k is suffering.

If you're legitimately suffering by making 60k, why did you take the job in the first place? You made a terrible life choice if you accepted a job that you knew would make you "suffer."

Buddy this is the most out of touch bullshit I've ever heard. If you had 10 years into any other professional career, you would expect to be making more than 60k. Especially at the national carrier, the "pinnacle" of Canadian aviation. You're effectively saying nobody should take a job at AC...because in today's economy, who's not suffering on 60k?

60k is a starting wage right out of college/uni for any professional with a degree. Not even considering the amount of responsibility pilots are under, with hundreds of lives in their hands on a daily basis. The blame needs to be on the company for even considering this an acceptable wage. Not on the people who want to progress in their career.

[cdnavater]

I’d support a new hire pay matrix based on experience level. I would like to attract other airlines’ captains, sure. But we also need a mix of newer, younger people as well. Because when older, experienced pilots start afresh, they can become frustrated by the lack of progression that inevitably comes, relative to their former position. Especially if they’re paid the same as somebody with a quarter of their own experience. That’s the biggest injustice imo, at least upon hiring, paying everyone the same when some have 2000 hrs and no degree and no multi time, and another has a jet type rating, university degree, military experience, other 705 experience, and 7000 hrs.

But if you’re mad about where you live, your age, your marital status, your dependants status, your parents financial status, those are YOUR crosses to bear. Vote your issues and don’t fault anyone else for voting theirs. I think the senior pilots here all put vast amounts of thought and compassion towards the younger guys- down to day to day things like buying drinks, tipping the drivers, buying coffee, to bigger things like fixing DC pension (twice already, leaving DB untouched for 10+ years), improving and then actually eliminating LOU74, the former socialized profit sharing (soon to be totally socialized because nobody will get it, congrats), 30% pay cut during COVID (when we were NOT deemed surplus).

Does this go far enough. Eh, maybe not. That’s quite simply not my issue. If the airline has trouble hiring that is their issue. There’s nobody in ground school, and no qualified applicants, and they still have their heads in the sand apparently. Vote your issues and I’ll vote mine. Believe me there are plenty still here without being brow beaten by some know nothing who’s been here for a minute.

To soften this a little, I’m not mad. But your issues will be better taken up without blaming people who are not to blame.

This is absolutely bang on, I’m sorry if my support gets you some flack, they don’t get it!
I clearly showed 120 now is not better than 415k spread out, I guarantee you can make a lot more investing 415k over 20 years than 120(after tax 75) over four year but what do I know!
The I want it NOW generation doesn’t care where it comes from, they just want it now! You haven’t suffered enough for their plight, their choices don’t have consequences early in life therefore they believe there are no consequences for their choices!
It is simply summed up this way, if it’s not enough, don’t accept the job, who cares if others do, they decided that it was worth the short term pain for the long term gain!

[Flyboy736]

I’d support a new hire pay matrix based on experience level. I would like to attract other airlines’ captains, sure. But we also need a mix of newer, younger people as well. Because when older, experienced pilots start afresh, they can become frustrated by the lack of progression that inevitably comes, relative to their former position. Especially if they’re paid the same as somebody with a quarter of their own experience. That’s the biggest injustice imo, at least upon hiring, paying everyone the same when some have 2000 hrs and no degree and no multi time, and another has a jet type rating, university degree, military experience, other 705 experience, and 7000 hrs.

But if you’re mad about where you live, your age, your marital status, your dependants status, your parents financial status, those are YOUR crosses to bear. Vote your issues and don’t fault anyone else for voting theirs. I think the senior pilots here all put vast amounts of thought and compassion towards the younger guys- down to day to day things like buying drinks, tipping the drivers, buying coffee, to bigger things like fixing DC pension (twice already, leaving DB untouched for 10+ years), improving and then actually eliminating LOU74, the former socialized profit sharing (soon to be totally socialized because nobody will get it, congrats), 30% pay cut during COVID (when we were NOT deemed surplus).

Does this go far enough. Eh, maybe not. That’s quite simply not my issue. If the airline has trouble hiring that is their issue. There’s nobody in ground school, and no qualified applicants, and they still have their heads in the sand apparently. Vote your issues and I’ll vote mine. Believe me there are plenty still here without being brow beaten by some know nothing who’s been here for a minute.

To soften this a little, I’m not mad. But your issues will be better taken up without blaming people who are not to blame.

This is absolutely bang on, I’m sorry if my support gets you some flack, they don’t get it!
I clearly showed 120 now is not better than 415k spread out, I guarantee you can make a lot more investing 415k over 20 years than 120(after tax 75) over four year but what do I know!
The I want it NOW generation doesn’t care where it comes from, they just want it now! You haven’t suffered enough for their plight, their choices don’t have consequences early in life therefore they believe there are no consequences for their choices!
It is simply summed up this way, if it’s not enough, don’t accept the job, who cares if others do, they decided that it was worth the short term pain for the long term gain!

Let's accept less than industry standard because it's fine when you are eventually year 12... Did you half ass all your projects as a kid in school as well? Sounds like you support industry lagging vacation, industry lagging DBM, same old "we'll get em next time" excuses as the ACPA days

[thepoors]

I’d support a new hire pay matrix based on experience level. I would like to attract other airlines’ captains, sure. But we also need a mix of newer, younger people as well. Because when older, experienced pilots start afresh, they can become frustrated by the lack of progression that inevitably comes, relative to their former position. Especially if they’re paid the same as somebody with a quarter of their own experience. That’s the biggest injustice imo, at least upon hiring, paying everyone the same when some have 2000 hrs and no degree and no multi time, and another has a jet type rating, university degree, military experience, other 705 experience, and 7000 hrs.

But if you’re mad about where you live, your age, your marital status, your dependants status, your parents financial status, those are YOUR crosses to bear. Vote your issues and don’t fault anyone else for voting theirs. I think the senior pilots here all put vast amounts of thought and compassion towards the younger guys- down to day to day things like buying drinks, tipping the drivers, buying coffee, to bigger things like fixing DC pension (twice already, leaving DB untouched for 10+ years), improving and then actually eliminating LOU74, the former socialized profit sharing (soon to be totally socialized because nobody will get it, congrats), 30% pay cut during COVID (when we were NOT deemed surplus).

Does this go far enough. Eh, maybe not. That’s quite simply not my issue. If the airline has trouble hiring that is their issue. There’s nobody in ground school, and no qualified applicants, and they still have their heads in the sand apparently. Vote your issues and I’ll vote mine. Believe me there are plenty still here without being brow beaten by some know nothing who’s been here for a minute.

To soften this a little, I’m not mad. But your issues will be better taken up without blaming people who are not to blame.

This is absolutely bang on, I’m sorry if my support gets you some flack, they don’t get it!
I clearly showed 120 now is not better than 415k spread out, I guarantee you can make a lot more investing 415k over 20 years than 120(after tax 75) over four year but what do I know!
The I want it NOW generation doesn’t care where it comes from, they just want it now! You haven’t suffered enough for their plight, their choices don’t have consequences early in life therefore they believe there are no consequences for their choices!
It is simply summed up this way, if it’s not enough, don’t accept the job, who cares if others do, they decided that it was worth the short term pain for the long term gain!

Let's accept less than industry standard because it's fine when you are eventually year 12... Did you half ass all your projects as a kid in school as well? Sounds like you support industry lagging vacation, industry lagging DBM, same old "we'll get em next time" excuses as the ACPA days

He probably was/is ACPA

[TCAS II]

Is it really more money? Or is it just money moved from profit sharing and shown as a “pay raise”? Is it really just cost zero?

[khedrei]

I’d support a new hire pay matrix based on experience level. I would like to attract other airlines’ captains, sure. But we also need a mix of newer, younger people as well. Because when older, experienced pilots start afresh, they can become frustrated by the lack of progression that inevitably comes, relative to their former position. Especially if they’re paid the same as somebody with a quarter of their own experience. That’s the biggest injustice imo, at least upon hiring, paying everyone the same when some have 2000 hrs and no degree and no multi time, and another has a jet type rating, university degree, military experience, other 705 experience, and 7000 hrs.

But if you’re mad about where you live, your age, your marital status, your dependants status, your parents financial status, those are YOUR crosses to bear. Vote your issues and don’t fault anyone else for voting theirs. I think the senior pilots here all put vast amounts of thought and compassion towards the younger guys- down to day to day things like buying drinks, tipping the drivers, buying coffee, to bigger things like fixing DC pension (twice already, leaving DB untouched for 10+ years), improving and then actually eliminating LOU74, the former socialized profit sharing (soon to be totally socialized because nobody will get it, congrats), 30% pay cut during COVID (when we were NOT deemed surplus).

Does this go far enough. Eh, maybe not. That’s quite simply not my issue. If the airline has trouble hiring that is their issue. There’s nobody in ground school, and no qualified applicants, and they still have their heads in the sand apparently. Vote your issues and I’ll vote mine. Believe me there are plenty still here without being brow beaten by some know nothing who’s been here for a minute.

To soften this a little, I’m not mad. But your issues will be better taken up without blaming people who are not to blame.

This is absolutely bang on, I’m sorry if my support gets you some flack, they don’t get it!
I clearly showed 120 now is not better than 415k spread out, I guarantee you can make a lot more investing 415k over 20 years than 120(after tax 75) over four year but what do I know!
The I want it NOW generation doesn’t care where it comes from, they just want it now! You haven’t suffered enough for their plight, their choices don’t have consequences early in life therefore they believe there are no consequences for their choices!
It is simply summed up this way, if it’s not enough, don’t accept the job, who cares if others do, they decided that it was worth the short term pain for the long term gain!

Ah, so you want to bring taxes into it now? Ok. But only for my 120k, not 415k? OK... so even if you're right about the 75k, that 415 turns into about 200k after that 55% tax bracket. So now we're only talking about a 125k difference. You're still going to choose to spead that over 20 years and take it later! Go for it. Explains a lot.

What do you know...? Not much about managing your money aparently, because you've been bankrupt.

[Daniel Cooper]

No night pay and no nav pay anymore right? This may actually be a pay cut for some WB FOs.

[khedrei]

the guy on 60k is suffering.

If you're legitimately suffering by making 60k, why did you take the job in the first place? You made a terrible life choice if you accepted a job that you knew would make you "suffer."

You are right. Some people shouldnt have taken the job. Part of the issue here I think is that all of aviation sucks and people get into it cause they love it. Companies take advantage. This is the result. Solution, everyone stop going into it and that will leave only the senior guys and that will actually help with the wage problem but also bring with it other problems.

The other issue is that in this case the union promised ( from what ive read) to take care of the young guys and they weren't just there to help the senior guys. In the end, that's the opposite of what they did.

New Pilots: "hey ACPA I thought you were gonna take care of our crap wages"

Union: "We did"

New pilots: " what are you talking about, I got a 20k raise, senior guys got 100k"

Union: " but you will see those wages in 12 years. oh... you meant today? Sorry, we thought you meant help you in 12 years... sorry our bad. We'll get you next time dont worry".

[CaptDukeNukem]

Ok, just so everyone understands, ALPA does not reward juniority. Never has, Never will. Nor will your employer. You have to earn that. The 4 years went to 2. That’s a start. You will be rewarded over the longevity of your career. It’s pretty simple. Many years ago guys had 10-15 years under their belt before starting out at AC. What’s it now 4-5 years in the industry? Maybe less? Short term pain for long term gain. Many More pilots are sitting at the 12 year mark and everyone will get there. Raises start at the top and trickle down. That’s how she goes.

Shill alert.

[8895]

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter. My seniority is great, it’s the type of flying I want, the pay won’t be that far off from the AC equivalent for equipment. Maybe the most important part is I’ll still be able to afford rent each month for the next couple years anyone justifying those starting wages are obviously older and don’t understand the COL crisis younger pilots (and our generation as a whole) have to contend with.

We can see from this TA that AC doesn't want to attract Porter Captains, Flair Captains and it certainly wants the Captains it has left at Jazz to stay there. Air Canada is content to hire First Officers from Porter, Flair and Jazz. The pay tables, changes to per diem, and ADG demonstrate that it's trying to bait senior FO's into upgrading through both Captain loaded pay scales and QOL improvements to junior narrow body schedules.

I’m under 30 and an E2 FO and this isn’t nearly enough to get me to apply.

[Optimus Primer]

I’d support a new hire pay matrix based on experience level. I would like to attract other airlines’ captains, sure. But we also need a mix of newer, younger people as well. Because when older, experienced pilots start afresh, they can become frustrated by the lack of progression that inevitably comes, relative to their former position. Especially if they’re paid the same as somebody with a quarter of their own experience. That’s the biggest injustice imo, at least upon hiring, paying everyone the same when some have 2000 hrs and no degree and no multi time, and another has a jet type rating, university degree, military experience, other 705 experience, and 7000 hrs.

But if you’re mad about where you live, your age, your marital status, your dependants status, your parents financial status, those are YOUR crosses to bear. Vote your issues and don’t fault anyone else for voting theirs. I think the senior pilots here all put vast amounts of thought and compassion towards the younger guys- down to day to day things like buying drinks, tipping the drivers, buying coffee, to bigger things like fixing DC pension (twice already, leaving DB untouched for 10+ years), improving and then actually eliminating LOU74, the former socialized profit sharing (soon to be totally socialized because nobody will get it, congrats), 30% pay cut during COVID (when we were NOT deemed surplus).

Does this go far enough. Eh, maybe not. That’s quite simply not my issue. If the airline has trouble hiring that is their issue. There’s nobody in ground school, and no qualified applicants, and they still have their heads in the sand apparently. Vote your issues and I’ll vote mine. Believe me there are plenty still here without being brow beaten by some know nothing who’s been here for a minute.

To soften this a little, I’m not mad. But your issues will be better taken up without blaming people who are not to blame.

This is absolutely bang on, I’m sorry if my support gets you some flack, they don’t get it!
I clearly showed 120 now is not better than 415k spread out, I guarantee you can make a lot more investing 415k over 20 years than 120(after tax 75) over four year but what do I know!
The I want it NOW generation doesn’t care where it comes from, they just want it now! You haven’t suffered enough for their plight, their choices don’t have consequences early in life therefore they believe there are no consequences for their choices!
It is simply summed up this way, if it’s not enough, don’t accept the job, who cares if others do, they decided that it was worth the short term pain for the long term gain!

Let's accept less than industry standard because it's fine when you are eventually year 12... Did you half ass all your projects as a kid in school as well? Sounds like you support industry lagging vacation, industry lagging DBM, same old "we'll get em next time" excuses as the ACPA days

You'll have to excuse him; he's old guard at Jazz. They've been beat up so many times in the past that they can't help but backwards rationalize why things suck. "These darned entitled kids want everything NOW! THEY are what's wrong with this industry! You have to suffer like my generation did when a house took 2 years to save up for!"

[thrust set]

“ No night pay and no nav pay anymore right? This may actually be a pay cut for some WB FOs”

It’s there.

[GodlvlPilot]

This is absolutely bang on, I’m sorry if my support gets you some flack, they don’t get it!
I clearly showed 120 now is not better than 415k spread out, I guarantee you can make a lot more investing 415k over 20 years than 120(after tax 75) over four year but what do I know!
The I want it NOW generation doesn’t care where it comes from, they just want it now! You haven’t suffered enough for their plight, their choices don’t have consequences early in life therefore they believe there are no consequences for their choices!
It is simply summed up this way, if it’s not enough, don’t accept the job, who cares if others do, they decided that it was worth the short term pain for the long term gain!

Let's accept less than industry standard because it's fine when you are eventually year 12... Did you half ass all your projects as a kid in school as well? Sounds like you support industry lagging vacation, industry lagging DBM, same old "we'll get em next time" excuses as the ACPA days

You'll have to excuse him; he's old guard at Jazz. They've been beat up so many times in the past that they can't help but backwards rationalize why things suck. "These darned entitled kids want everything NOW! THEY are what's wrong with this industry! You have to suffer like my generation did when a house took 2 years to save up for!"

Hey now remember his sacrifices. He can't get the lifestyle he deserves anymore because of those pesky kids who no longer get the pay, the pension, the life time passes all for that flow to ac that's inexistent that they all voted on.

[cdnavater]

This is absolutely bang on, I’m sorry if my support gets you some flack, they don’t get it!
I clearly showed 120 now is not better than 415k spread out, I guarantee you can make a lot more investing 415k over 20 years than 120(after tax 75) over four year but what do I know!
The I want it NOW generation doesn’t care where it comes from, they just want it now! You haven’t suffered enough for their plight, their choices don’t have consequences early in life therefore they believe there are no consequences for their choices!
It is simply summed up this way, if it’s not enough, don’t accept the job, who cares if others do, they decided that it was worth the short term pain for the long term gain!

Let's accept less than industry standard because it's fine when you are eventually year 12... Did you half ass all your projects as a kid in school as well? Sounds like you support industry lagging vacation, industry lagging DBM, same old "we'll get em next time" excuses as the ACPA days

You'll have to excuse him; he's old guard at Jazz. They've been beat up so many times in the past that they can't help but backwards rationalize why things suck. "These darned entitled kids want everything NOW! THEY are what's wrong with this industry! You have to suffer like my generation did when a house took 2 years to save up for!"

Yes, I understand how the world works, don’t take a job that doesn’t satisfy your needs, really simple.
Air Canada doesn’t value your contribution as much as more tenured pilots, you should be outraged, you should send them a message, vote no and if it passes, quit. If you’re not already there, don’t apply!

[CaptDukeNukem]

Let's accept less than industry standard because it's fine when you are eventually year 12... Did you half ass all your projects as a kid in school as well? Sounds like you support industry lagging vacation, industry lagging DBM, same old "we'll get em next time" excuses as the ACPA days

You'll have to excuse him; he's old guard at Jazz. They've been beat up so many times in the past that they can't help but backwards rationalize why things suck. "These darned entitled kids want everything NOW! THEY are what's wrong with this industry! You have to suffer like my generation did when a house took 2 years to save up for!"

Yes, I understand how the world works, don’t take a job that doesn’t satisfy your needs, really simple.
Air Canada doesn’t value your contribution as much as more tenured pilots, you should be outraged, you should send them a message, vote no and if it passes, quit. If you’re not already there, don’t apply!

At least this TA isn’t 17 years

[Kiko12]

FO's - the world is huge. With that type rating you can move anywhere in the world and pay less taxes. Don't base all your life over a company


Captain's - I hope your second boat sink if you vote yes

[cdnavater]

You'll have to excuse him; he's old guard at Jazz. They've been beat up so many times in the past that they can't help but backwards rationalize why things suck. "These darned entitled kids want everything NOW! THEY are what's wrong with this industry! You have to suffer like my generation did when a house took 2 years to save up for!"

Yes, I understand how the world works, don’t take a job that doesn’t satisfy your needs, really simple.
Air Canada doesn’t value your contribution as much as more tenured pilots, you should be outraged, you should send them a message, vote no and if it passes, quit. If you’re not already there, don’t apply!

At least this TA isn’t 17 years

Yes, thanks for the role you played in that! Show me on the doll where the big bad Jazz hurt you!

[just clearing the trees]

the guy on 60k is suffering.

If you're legitimately suffering by making 60k, why did you take the job in the first place? You made a terrible life choice if you accepted a job that you knew would make you "suffer."

Buddy this is the most out of touch bullshit I've ever heard. If you had 10 years into any other professional career, you would expect to be making more than 60k. Especially at the national carrier, the "pinnacle" of Canadian aviation. You're effectively saying nobody should take a job at AC...because in today's economy, who's not suffering on 60k?

Well, not nobody. Just anyone who would bring "suffering" upon themselves by accepting a job that only paid 60k. No one is forcing anyone to work there. If it's that bad, you probably shouldn't.

If you bought your dream home but paid 40% over what you knew your max budget was and it pushed you into financial ruin, would you be mad at the seller for selling it to you?

60k is a starting wage right out of college/uni for any professional with a degree. Not even considering the amount of responsibility pilots are under, with hundreds of lives in their hands on a daily basis. The blame needs to be on the company for even considering this an acceptable wage. Not on the people who want to progress in their career.

Well, anyone who accepts those terms of employment, by definition also considers it an acceptable wage. There are lots of other places one can progress their career that pay better in the short to medium term. Why not go there instead? Employment is a transaction. You're free to take the skills and experience you're selling anywhere you want to. If getting top dollar is your priority, you're free to do so.

Stop trying to make everyone think you're a victim instead of the willing participant that you are.

[Tigger]

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter.

Your hats are uuuuuuugly?

Seriously though, I thought the same thing once. Now I can’t imagine working anywhere else. The bullshit isn’t as deep or as smelly as you think it is.

[8895]

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter.

Your hats are uuuuuuugly?

Seriously though, I thought the same thing once. Now I can’t imagine working anywhere else. The bullshit isn’t as deep or as smelly as you think it is.

Uniforms are redundant, but if we’re mentioning them then I’ll say I actually dislike the air Canada ones surprisingly enough but honestly, saying it’s not as bad as it seems doesn’t exactly sound convincing. I’m in the top 30% seniority and will probably be there when I upgrade too. My older comment on why anyone young like myself would go to AC if they aren’t paranoid about stability or wanting long haul flying still stands.

[cjp]

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter.

Your hats are uuuuuuugly?

Seriously though, I thought the same thing once. Now I can’t imagine working anywhere else. The bullshit isn’t as deep or as smelly as you think it is.

Funny Yes, the hats are larger, and I found it initially strange to wear, but I realized quickly the hat was more than a hat. It reminded me of my team, our culture and our mission. It became a symbol of what I do and who I do it for.

I'm proud to wear my blue hat

I'm sure you feel the same about yours.

[ant_321]

I’d challenge you to sell me on going to AC right now instead of staying on the E2 at porter.

Your hats are uuuuuuugly?

Seriously though, I thought the same thing once. Now I can’t imagine working anywhere else. The bullshit isn’t as deep or as smelly as you think it is.

Funny Yes, the hats are larger, and I found it initially strange to wear, but I realized quickly the hat was more than a hat. It reminded me of my team, our culture and our mission. It became a symbol of what I do and who I do it for.

I'm proud to wear my blue hat

I'm sure you feel the same about yours.

Geez that kool-aid must be great. And for the record, all pilot hats look ridiculous.

[cjp]

Your hats are uuuuuuugly?

Seriously though, I thought the same thing once. Now I can’t imagine working anywhere else. The bullshit isn’t as deep or as smelly as you think it is.

Funny Yes, the hats are larger, and I found it initially strange to wear, but I realized quickly the hat was more than a hat. It reminded me of my team, our culture and our mission. It became a symbol of what I do and who I do it for.

I'm proud to wear my blue hat

I'm sure you feel the same about yours.

Geez that kool-aid must be great. And for the record, all pilot hats look ridiculous.

If you say so.