khedrei wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 11:55 am
How about this? I will step back from the criticism for a bit to have a genuine question answer period. Hopefully some of the pro TA people will come and meet me there.
Genuine questions for the ones that are on board with senior guys getting a new guys salary x 1.3 for a raise while the new guy doesn't even get past wages+inflation.
Do you think a captain is legitimately worth 3-5x an FO? Previous claims say they don't do the same job. I claimed they do, with added responsibility. I think that's accurate. Perhaps this is a wording issue. Yes they make more decisions, but do they not perform the same tasks in the cockpit aside from what... filling out the log book and taxiing? If you think that the added responsibility and decision making is worth 3-5 times the wage, fine. We have our answer. I don't agree, same as most people who have commented here along with the entire industry in the US. I guess the vote will see. Also, not all captains are in that spot because they have more experience. There are plenty who could have 3k hours and upgraded in 2 years. A new FO might have way more experience but worked up north for 10 years. Seniority is a bitch that way, but I get it. I just think the experience argument falls apart in plenty of situations but I digress, that's not the point. Please tell me how much you think a captain is worth compared to an FO?
If you don't think they are worth 3-5x the wage, I ask why you still think what happened is ok? Because they got it? Because it benefits you? Because you had to do the 4-6 years of pain so you don't think they should jump that high that fast? Because they don't deserve it? And if they don't, why not? These are all legitimate answers, just say it and be honest.
Referencing the other thread, is it because making the wages more even just because is communism and we shouldn't do it for that reason alone?
Do you support this disparity because you think it's the best we can do?
The things that I don't think anyone would argue is that the union did not do what they promised. Not a world class contract. The pilots said if you don't get one, strike. They didn't do that.
Do you believe this contract is pretty good because the captains wages got close to the US captains wages? I have heard this claim. So I ask, why are you satisfied that the Captains got close but the FOs didn't. If you are fine with that, I'm curious why. Are the reasons the same as I listed above?
You're answer might be "I don't care, my wages went up a lot". Fine, that's an answer. I think it's selfish, but it's still a legitimate answer. If it's your answer, at least be honest about it. Say it.
If this passes I'm glad I won't be in the cockpit. The unity will be non existent.
The thing about your claim that they didn’t even get inflation, bank of Canada inflation calculator says 48,000 in the year 2000 is equivalent to 81,153 today, very close to actual inflation for the approximate starting wage in 2000.
It’s not that FOs aren’t worth 66 2/3% of a Captain, this was tongue in cheek a little, it’s that there is value to how long someone spends at their airline, there is value in their past concessions, past lets, past bankruptcy forced changes, they are essentially being paid back for all of that, some would even argue not enough.
Just because they are making 300k and will now make 400k does not mean they didn’t earn it, it’s also worth noting that in the last 25 years that it took most of them to hold left seat 777, there have been many, many downturns and the subsequent fallout. Layoffs, mergers, the list is long and they should be paid back for that.
The reality is, anyone on the first four years has a choice, vote no and see if there are enough no votes, if not the other choice is find employment elsewhere, I hear Flair pays more but really your desire for more money does not trump the senior pilots who’ve been through some shit to finally see a payback.
I find this whole thing funny really, I was at Jazz when we signed our best ever contract, 2010, most of the gains went to the junior, year 1 had the highest increase, year 2 a little less, year 3 less, 4, 5, 6 all a bit less, 7-9 almost nothing, then increasing back up to the top scale, I was right in the spot that had almost nothing and I thought well, that kind of sucks but I didn’t go around yelling that the junior and senior pilots screwed me.
Then after that, we signed the worst contract we’ve ever signed, and literally any chance at improving since then has gone to fixing those changes which were all at the bottom and for those hired after 2015, every single improvement has been for them and what do we get for that, shitheads giving us grief how we screwed them, we didn’t screw anyone, they screwed themselves by taking the job. But, we tried to get back to where we once were and all I’ve had since the contract in 2010 is 2% per year, which has not kept up with inflation. Then last Sept we had some money thrown at us, by thrown I mean hard fought because yet again the company only wanted to put money where the problems were and our union said no way, all or nothing!
So as a top scale pilot, I got a lot of flack about my long service award of 6000, barely scratches the surface of where I should have been if not for pilots taking job at an airline who’s entire purpose for existence was to bring our union and wages down.
I’ve been through several downturns, I’m not saying this because I want others to experience it, I’m merely pointing out I’ve had to start over a few times, it’s not pleasant and I’m finally at a point where I get to enjoy life and not worry so much about if I can pay my bills, I won’t apologize for thinking that seniority friggen counts, it’s literally everything in this business, it rules your entire career and handcuffs you to your chosen airline and why you make more at the top.
