Recall of the NC

[thepoors]

If that was invoked, why wouldn't the MEC come out and say that right away? Why wouldn't they go to the media and disclose that the minister forced a deal? ....because it didn't happen. Plain and simple.

You dont know that yet.

While it may end up you are correct, today, you speculate.

I give the MEC more credit than to toss out a mouthful of emotionally charged vomit. This MEC has earned my trust and they have it until the end.

In solidarity, top 100 seniority.

How are you feeling now? This is 100% a sell job. I question their motives.

[digits_]

If that was invoked, why wouldn't the MEC come out and say that right away? Why wouldn't they go to the media and disclose that the minister forced a deal? ....because it didn't happen. Plain and simple.

You dont know that yet.

While it may end up you are correct, today, you speculate.

I give the MEC more credit than to toss out a mouthful of emotionally charged vomit. This MEC has earned my trust and they have it until the end.

In solidarity, top 100 seniority.

How are you feeling now? This is 100% a sell job. I question their motives.

What happened?

[thepoors]

You dont know that yet.

While it may end up you are correct, today, you speculate.

I give the MEC more credit than to toss out a mouthful of emotionally charged vomit. This MEC has earned my trust and they have it until the end.

In solidarity, top 100 seniority.

How are you feeling now? This is 100% a sell job. I question their motives.

What happened?

MEC Chair announced she fully supports the TA and will be voting yes.

They are pitching the TA like a bunch of used car salesmen and gaslighting everyone like an abusive ex. While making it crystal clear the company didn't make a single compromise on this deal and the pilots got nothing they asked for.

[digits_]

How are you feeling now? This is 100% a sell job. I question their motives.

What happened?

MEC Chair announced she fully supports the TA and will be voting yes.

They are pitching the TA like a bunch of used car salesmen and gaslighting like an abusive ex. While making it crystal clear the company didn't make a single compromise on this deal and the pilots got nothing they asked for.

Sorry to hear that. Good luck! It's a shame. What a wasted opportunity.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Is there appetite for recalls yet?

[thepoors]

Is there appetite for recalls yet?

One would hope.

Seems most still think a no vote will lead to improvements. I'm not sure how with the same gold star team - who agreed to this nonsense and is now shilling it.

[mervinmerv]

The MEC Chair cannot very well stand up there and tell everyone to vote no on a TA they brought to you, that would be bad faith. Nothing about her messages have been celebratory thus far. There is a high level of strategy occurring here on the company's part and if you can't see that then I would take some time to consider it. This is how AC kills the momentum of the union, they handcuff them with "the best TA they could get" and they send them back to the pilots and wait for the pitchforks to take care of the rest. The communication from the company has been nothing short of a vomit inducing happy dance, they are the clear winners here. They even planned a sale to celebrate.

[BTD]

Recall is a very dumb idea. Vote no, sure. But recalls will be a cluster and will solve nothing. We will be in a much worse position after. Charlene is the most trust worthy MEC chair we have had in many many years. Whoever replaces her will simply be another scapegoat when expectations don’t match outcomes.

If your confidence in someone is solely based on getting the outcome you desire there was never trust to begin with. That doesn’t mean to go along without questioning, but different people will look at the same facts and come to different conclusions. It happens all the time. Including when a captain and FO disagree. Assuming that she is acting in bad faith shows a lack of maturity.

She is the best person to have in that role right now, whether it is ratified or not.

Don’t let juvenile reactionary emotions impede better judgement. Vote no, but this doesn’t make Charlene malevolent or insincere.

[thepoors]

Recall is a very dumb idea. Vote no, sure. But recalls will be a cluster and will solve nothing. We will be in a much worse position after. Charlene is the most trust worthy MEC chair we have had in many many years. Whoever replaces her will simply be another scapegoat when expectations don’t match outcomes.

If your confidence in someone is solely based on getting the outcome you desire there was never trust to begin with. That doesn’t mean to go along without questioning, but different people will look at the same facts and come to different conclusions. It happens all the time. Including when a captain and FO disagree. Assuming that she is acting in bad faith shows a lack of maturity.

She is the best person to have in that role right now, whether it is ratified or not.

Don’t let juvenile reactionary emotions impede better judgement. Vote no, but this doesn’t make Charlene malevolent or insincere.

I haven't seen anyone specifically call out Charlene, and I agree that's a stretch.

However, the negotiating committee is another story. At best they have proven to be completely ineffectual, at worst they happily agreed to a deal that only benefits them (WB CAs) and the company.

The big problem here is that this TA is so far removed from what ALPA's messaging was leading up. They built everyone up into a "World Class Contract" frenzy. Those were likely unrealistic expectations, and now people are understandably let down and upset. The MEC over-promised and under-delivered to a such degree that their integrity now comes into question. Is it fair?..probably not, but they made their bed.

[walkabout]

According to the “vocal minority” phenomenon, for every one person losing their sh$t here(several of whom don’t even work for AC) and in crew rooms, road shows etc there are many more that will quietly vote yes for this TA. We just don’t hear from the silent majority because they are well… silent, and no amount of arguing will change that.One gets a very skewed opinion of the potential success of this TA by listening to the talking heads here. This thing will pass, probably in the 65% range

100% this.

If this got a yes vote yrs ago by majority
Yr 1- $62.50
2 - $68.33
3 - $77.87
4 - $87.20

This will pass easily unfortunately.
$87.48
$94.81
$99 - $143 RP-FO
$107 - $154 RP-FO

Anyone calculate exactly how many pilots are in each group at the moment? YOS 1, 2, 3, 4?

[Aerkavo]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

[khedrei]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Well, that answered at least one of my questions in the previous thread. Thanks for being honest. Not for much else, but at least the honesty.

[flying4dollars]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Hmm, sounds more like you may have the shoulder chip. Don't make the mistake of ignorantly assuming new hires at AC are all 20 nothing year olds with 2000 hours on mostly civilized aircraft living in mostly civilized cities. It amazes me how many senior folk I've spoken with that think junior AC pilot means junior industry pilot.

[digits_]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Hmm, sounds more like you may have the shoulder chip. Don't make the mistake of ignorantly assuming new hires at AC are all 20 nothing year olds with 2000 hours on mostly civilized aircraft living in mostly civilized cities. It amazes me how many senior folk I've spoken with that think junior AC pilot means junior industry pilot.

AC captains giving advice to a young pilot in 2018:
"Go fly in the bush first instead of trying to get into AC right away. So many story, best time of your career, that's what flying is all about!"

AC captains 6 years later when that young pilot finally wants to jump from the bush to AC:
"Do you know the 703 crap I had to get through to get to where I am? That's why I deserve a bloody raise higher than your full pathetic salary!"


Air Canada: If the first year pay doesn't scare you off, the senior captain's mindsets sure will!

[cdnavater]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Trying to get empathy from people who’ve had everything handed to them, never had to fail anything or….the fact is, they don’t care if they take from you to improve their situation, I’m 40 years in as well and I got an arrogant prick keeps bringing up my previous bankruptcy 25 years ago when he was still jerking off into a gym sock, as a reason to discount my thoughts on the situation.
@#$! em, take your hard earned pay increase and don’t look back, the shit any pilot has had to go through if you’ve been doing this for the last 20 or so years. You’ve more than earned it!

[cdnavater]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Well, that answered at least one of my questions in the previous thread. Thanks for being honest. Not for much else, but at least the honesty.

I get it now, you’re pissed because you were thinking of applying to AC and now you can’t, just do what the rest do, take the job and then complain how the senior pilots screwed you!

[flying4dollars]

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Hmm, sounds more like you may have the shoulder chip. Don't make the mistake of ignorantly assuming new hires at AC are all 20 nothing year olds with 2000 hours on mostly civilized aircraft living in mostly civilized cities. It amazes me how many senior folk I've spoken with that think junior AC pilot means junior industry pilot.

AC captains giving advice to a young pilot in 2018:
"Go fly in the bush first instead of trying to get into AC right away. So many story, best time of your career, that's what flying is all about!"

AC captains 6 years later when that young pilot finally wants to jump from the bush to AC:
"Do you know the 703 crap I had to get through to get to where I am? That's why I deserve a bloody raise higher than your full pathetic salary!"


Air Canada: If the first year pay doesn't scare you off, the senior captain's mindsets sure will!

Don't get me wrong, all of the really senior guys I've flown with have all been fantastic to fly with. Yes I said all, 100% of them, but there is this inherent assumption that recent year hires are relatively inexperienced or at least new to jets. I think there's a real disconnect there.

Bit of a thread drift, but just wanted to address this.

[JHR]

Ahhhh...smell the unity!

[Aerkavo]

Don't make the mistake of ignorantly assuming new hires at AC are all 20 nothing year olds with 2000 hours on mostly civilized aircraft living in mostly civilized cities. It amazes me how many senior folk I've spoken with that think junior AC pilot means junior industry pilot.

Of course I'm speaking in generalities. Some new hires that I've worked with have solid experience and some don't but all of them have had a good attitude and are fine.

It's only on these forums that the vitriol comes out. I'm amazed at the idea that being senior means I have sailed through my career hoovering up all the gravy and have never experienced any hardship or setbacks and never made any sacrifice.

On another forum an AC pilot has made a post analysing flat pay and shown that the new rates (if accepted) will be the highest ever. That's taking the old rates from the last 30 years and adjusting for inflation. I don't appreciate being called a "greedy fu ck" and being accused of "throwing the juniors under the bus" for only paying them $80K/year. Flair is higher? Use your brain. Of course it's higher - it's a 3rd rate company with no future and marginal career potential.

[khedrei]

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Well, that answered at least one of my questions in the previous thread. Thanks for being honest. Not for much else, but at least the honesty.

I get it now, you’re pissed because you were thinking of applying to AC and now you can’t, just do what the rest do, take the job and then complain how the senior pilots screwed you!

If I was planning to stay in canada, yes, I might have considered it an option.

[flyingcanuck]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

The irony here

[khedrei]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Trying to get empathy from people who’ve had everything handed to them, never had to fail anything or….the fact is, they don’t care if they take from you to improve their situation, I’m 40 years in as well and I got an arrogant prick keeps bringing up my previous bankruptcy 25 years ago when he was still jerking off into a gym sock, as a reason to discount my thoughts on the situation.
@#$! em, take your hard earned pay increase and don’t look back, the shit any pilot has had to go through if you’ve been doing this for the last 20 or so years. You’ve more than earned it!

"Keeps brining it up"? Get over yourself. I brought it up twice because you were trying to tell me that today's money is less valuable than the promise of more money down the road. I along with many would argue you're wrong.

Don't think for a second that I haven put in my time or know what hard work is about. I haven't had a thing handed to me and the only reason I'm in the financial situation I am now is because of my own hard work. I lived on call 24/7 365. Worked outside for 12 hours in -30, pooring rain, disgusting hot sun all day, all night all year round. Did it for 13 years then changed careers. You and I are probably closer in all around work experience/ethic than you might think. I still don't think that giving a 100k raise to one pilot, and a 20k to the other is fair, no matter how you slice it. Especially when the one pilot is still under past wages +inflation by a couple thousand and cost of living is what it is. If people think that's communism, have at er. I was trying to have a civil conversation with you in the other thread. I thought it was off to a good start.

Funny thing about this, is that if the offer was, let's say 40k to the new pilots and 80k to the older ones ( or 50k and 60k) would we still be having this discussion. I think not. Tough to convince someone to reduce a current offer. But it came out like that from the start it would be much different.

[cdnavater]

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Trying to get empathy from people who’ve had everything handed to them, never had to fail anything or….the fact is, they don’t care if they take from you to improve their situation, I’m 40 years in as well and I got an arrogant prick keeps bringing up my previous bankruptcy 25 years ago when he was still jerking off into a gym sock, as a reason to discount my thoughts on the situation.
@#$! em, take your hard earned pay increase and don’t look back, the shit any pilot has had to go through if you’ve been doing this for the last 20 or so years. You’ve more than earned it!

"Keeps brining it up"? Get over yourself. I brought it up twice because you were trying to tell me that today's money is less valuable than the promise of more money down the road. I along with many would argue you're wrong.

Don't think for a second that I haven put in my time or know what hard work is about. I haven't had a thing handed to me and the only reason I'm in the financial situation I am now is because of my own hard work. I lived on call 24/7 365. Worked outside for 12 hours in -30, pooring rain, disgusting hot sun all day, all night all year round. Did it for 13 years then changed careers. You and I are probably closer in all around work experience/ethic than you might think. I still don't think that giving a 100k raise to one pilot, and a 20k to the other is fair, no matter how you slice it. Especially when the one pilot is still under past wages +inflation by a couple thousand and cost of living is what it is. If people think that's communism, have at er. I was trying to have a civil conversation with you in the other thread. I thought it was off to a good start.

Funny thing about this, is that if the offer was, let's say 40k to the new pilots and 80k to the older ones ( or 50k and 60k) would we still be having this discussion. I think not. Tough to convince someone to reduce a current offer. But it came out like that from the start it would be much different.

I agree with you, I believe you’ve said you’re 39 and live on a farm, so yes you are not the generation I’m referring. I realize your dissatisfaction with this is the perception that the seniors were over represented, I’m not going to argue with you about 120k spread over 4 years vs 415 over 20, we won’t agree on that and that’s fine.
I have responded in kind on the other thread, a more accurate picture, new hires will make 83-85k, I would guarantee that, still falls short of where it should be but it is absolutely 100% above inflation for the last 30 years.
The major of new hires are not super experienced pilots who’ve spent years honing their craft, they have 2000 hours and maybe if they stay put, build some more time and let AC struggle to fill the classes, they will be forced to do something.
They are betting they won’t have to, seeing what pilots have done in the past, I’d bet they won’t have to either.
I took offence to the many opinions that senior pilots should sacrifice some of their raise for the juniors, as if they haven’t actually sacrificed enough!

[altiplano]

This is formula pay though...

The 777 is that big and heavy that it incurs that much weight pay. Perhaps our formula should be slanted more to the CA flying pay component then weight pay. That would narrow the gap between all the CA pay rates on which everything else is then based.

I don't have an issue with 1 year of $80K probation pay. Sure more would always be better, but as stated it is significantly higher than flat pay from the glory years corrected for inflation. What I didn't like is the FO formula %'s - first off it should start year 2 and the low end of it should start at a higher place.

Other than that, I could have lived with this pay until we get the rest in '23. And I do expect that we will be looking for this type of rate gain again on the next round.

But what I can't live with in this deal is the continued poor quality of life at this airline. Max days every month for almost everyone and no assurance for productivity and lifestyle gains is a deal breaker for me. Delayed implementation on the few things we did get doesn't cut it. The company could flip the switch on PBS and up the productivity next month allowing the vacation and ADG gains to implement immediately. And 4:30 ADG? We needed North of 5 hours on that. And training in the block too, at least for the NBs... of course there's more...

[rookiepilot]

This is formula pay though...

The 777 is that big and heavy that it incurs that much weight pay.

Interesting! So train engineers make even more money? Oil Supertanker Captains? Cruise ship captains responsible for 5000 lives?

All weigh more than a 777.