Recall of the NC

[Tbayer2021]

This is formula pay though...

The 777 is that big and heavy that it incurs that much weight pay.

Interesting! So train engineers make even more money? Oil Supertanker Captains? Cruise ship captains responsible for 5000 lives?

All weigh more than a 777.

The formula actually accounts for height ASL and AGL as well as engine power. A train or ship engine isn't as powerful as a 777 GE engine.

[rookiepilot]

This is formula pay though...

The 777 is that big and heavy that it incurs that much weight pay.

Interesting! So train engineers make even more money? Oil Supertanker Captains? Cruise ship captains responsible for 5000 lives?

All weigh more than a 777.

The formula actually accounts for height ASL and AGL as well as engine power. A train or ship engine isn't as powerful as a 777 GE engine.

Space Shuttle pilots.

[Tbayer2021]

Interesting! So train engineers make even more money? Oil Supertanker Captains? Cruise ship captains responsible for 5000 lives?

All weigh more than a 777.

The formula actually accounts for height ASL and AGL as well as engine power. A train or ship engine isn't as powerful as a 777 GE engine.

Space Shuttle pilots.

Geez, when was the last time you read up on nasa? They don't use those anymore. Plus, their pilots weren't unionized. Also, when the pilots actually flew the orbiter, it weighed a maximum of 240,000 lbs.

Try again.

[Dias]

Space Shuttle pilots.

They have to do crappy commercials to retire.

[flying4dollars]

Don't make the mistake of ignorantly assuming new hires at AC are all 20 nothing year olds with 2000 hours on mostly civilized aircraft living in mostly civilized cities. It amazes me how many senior folk I've spoken with that think junior AC pilot means junior industry pilot.

On another forum an AC pilot has made a post analysing flat pay and shown that the new rates (if accepted) will be the highest ever. That's taking the old rates from the last 30 years and adjusting for inflation. I don't appreciate being called a "greedy fu ck" and being accused of "throwing the juniors under the bus" for only paying them $80K/year. Flair is higher? Use your brain. Of course it's higher - it's a 3rd rate company with no future and marginal career potential.

I agree, I'd defend myself from being called that too if I was in those shoes. But keyboard warriors who sling mud will always be that when they are behind a computer screen. I wouldn't bother feeding the trolls.

[flying4dollars]

Interesting! So train engineers make even more money? Oil Supertanker Captains? Cruise ship captains responsible for 5000 lives?

All weigh more than a 777.

The formula actually accounts for height ASL and AGL as well as engine power. A train or ship engine isn't as powerful as a 777 GE engine.

Airbus pilots.

Fixed that for you

[digits_]

I don't appreciate being called a "greedy fu ck" and being accused of "throwing the juniors under the bus" for only paying them $80K/year.

Then don't be one? How can you deny that's true? Perhaps not 'you' personally, but the union sure is.

Again, your raise is higher than the new salary the junior pilots will get. There's no way around that.

It's not about the 80k as an absolute number. It's about its relation to the senior 100k raises.

The union absolutely has the power to give every pilot a 65k raise instead of 30k for juniors and 100k for seniors, to correct for the subpar ratio of FO/CPT wages. They don't. Ok, fine. Not much to do about that I suppose. But it does certainly make the top look extremely greedy!

That's the other danger of running a big public media campaign during negotiations: the public gets invested and wants to know how/what you guys did. And a thing like this looks really bad and selfish. Because it is.

[TPP]

I don't appreciate being called a "greedy fu ck" and being accused of "throwing the juniors under the bus" for only paying them $80K/year.

Then don't be one? How can you deny that's true? Perhaps not 'you' personally, but the union sure is.

Again, your raise is higher than the new salary the junior pilots will get. There's no way around that.

It's not about the 80k as an absolute number. It's about its relation to the senior 100k raises.

The union absolutely has the power to give every pilot a 65k raise instead of 30k for juniors and 100k for seniors, to correct for the subpar ratio of FO/CPT wages. They don't. Ok, fine. Not much to do about that I suppose. But it does certainly make the top look extremely greedy!

That's the other danger of running a big public media campaign during negotiations: the public gets invested and wants to know how/what you guys did. And a thing like this looks really bad and selfish. Because it is.

Spreading a 65k raise across the board means your total career earnings at AC will be significantly less.

Most ppl spend 30+ years at AC. Once you're at year 5 your income skyrockets as an FO. So it's not just skippers that got a massive raise.

I think everyone in this northern wasteland was cheering on for higher flat pay or no flat pay at all. But the gains on the FO side are also massive should u choose to never upgrade, and you'll spend the majority of your career at year 12 regardless of which seat u want to sit in.

[digits_]

I don't appreciate being called a "greedy fu ck" and being accused of "throwing the juniors under the bus" for only paying them $80K/year.

Then don't be one? How can you deny that's true? Perhaps not 'you' personally, but the union sure is.

Again, your raise is higher than the new salary the junior pilots will get. There's no way around that.

It's not about the 80k as an absolute number. It's about its relation to the senior 100k raises.

The union absolutely has the power to give every pilot a 65k raise instead of 30k for juniors and 100k for seniors, to correct for the subpar ratio of FO/CPT wages. They don't. Ok, fine. Not much to do about that I suppose. But it does certainly make the top look extremely greedy!

That's the other danger of running a big public media campaign during negotiations: the public gets invested and wants to know how/what you guys did. And a thing like this looks really bad and selfish. Because it is.

Spreading a 65k raise across the board means your total career earnings at AC will be significantly less.

Most ppl spend 30+ years at AC. Once you're at year 5 your income skyrockets as an FO. So it's not just skippers that got a massive raise.

I think everyone in this northern wasteland was cheering on for higher flat pay or no flat pay at all. But the gains on the FO side are also massive should u choose to never upgrade, and you'll spend the majority of your career at year 12 regardless of which seat u want to sit in.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what age you join, and how long quick upgrades are still happening. The TA is valid for 4 years only. After that, everything changes.

For older, more experienced pilots joining AC, spending 5 years as an FO can be 25% or 50% of their AC career.

[thepoors]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Shut up boomer. No one wants to hear your whining about how hard you had it (I bet you walked to school uphill both ways didn't you?) You're the most entitled and spoiled generation in the history of mankind - who had it the easiest of anyone before or since. You were handed everything by the selfless generation of your parents and want to pass on nothing to the next. That's your legacy.

How many years have you been at the top of the payscale making $200k+ a year when the cost of living was a fraction of what it is now? How much did your house cost per sqft? What were your wages at all those "terrible" Northern jobs adjusted for inflation?

You want to talk about boohoo? How about boohoo you get an 80k raise instead of 100k and that means the guys at the bottom don't have to live paycheck to paycheck? Or need to have a second job as a pilot at the national carrier? Or have to go to the food bank to feed their kids? But no, you rather be selfish and confirm the boomer slogan once again: "fu ck you, I got mine." Don't worry nobody expects anything less from you at this point. If you're triggered by my comments about your greed, it's because they're true and you feel guilty. If you're going to behave like an a-hole at least own it, instead of crying about it.

[rookiepilot]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Shut up boomer. No one wants to hear your whining about how hard you had it (I bet you walked to school uphill both ways didn't you?) You're the most entitled and spoiled generation in the history of mankind - who had it the easiest of anyone before or since. You were handed everything by the selfless generation of your parents and want to pass on nothing to the next. That's your legacy.

How many years have you been at the top of the payscale making $200k+ a year? How much did your house cost per sqft? What were your wages at all those "terrible" Northern jobs adjusted for inflation? How low was the cost of living?

You want to talk about boohoo? How about boohoo you get an 80k raise instead of 100k and that means the guys at the bottom don't have to live paycheck to paycheck? Or need to have a second job as a pilot at the national carrier? Or have to go to the food bank to feed their kids? But no, you rather be a selfish prick and confirm the boomer slogan once again: "fu ck you, I got mine." Don't worry nobody expects anything less from you at this point.

Not wrong.

The boomer generation is directly to blame for why housing and living prices vs incomes are today where they are, debt and tax levels are where they are.

You happily voted for it. Don’t be surprised there are a lot of pissed off younger folks. In the US too. You don’t pay your fair share. Never have. These are Facts and not debatable.

Politicians have sucked up to the powerful boomer voting block for decades, and are happy to dump the problems on the younger generations while calling them lazy bums.

Most selfish generation in history is a title well earned.

If I was in power I would remove voting rights from, say, 75+ You no longer contribute to the tax base through working. (Most of you). Too young to vote is ok, so is too old to vote. I’d make voting mandatory too, to increase the younger vote. Other countries do this.

I was working at 14, driving at 15, can solo an airplane by then.

Yet You can’t vote at these ages, yet dementia laden 80 year olds can. Why.

I would means test every retirement benefit in existence, based on assets, not income. CPP, OAS, JT’s dental and drug crap, the works. Not a right. Too much assets, none for you. And BTW CPP isn’t yours. Its a collective pension plan to benefit Canadians. Not a private pension.

I’d charge for every single DR visit, every single ER visit, poor by assets could claim it back. User fees on everything.

You’re too expensive. Pay your way.

All of this is coming, my entitled friend , cause the young won’t stand for it.

(BTW, I am barely not a boomer myself, well into my 50’s , for context)

[altiplano]

This is formula pay though...

The 777 is that big and heavy that it incurs that much weight pay.

Interesting! So train engineers make even more money? Oil Supertanker Captains? Cruise ship captains responsible for 5000 lives?

All weigh more than a 777.

Ever see what a coast pilotage operator makes?

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I'm voting no to the TA, I am not voting yes to Charlene resigning. If Charlene feels she must resign that's her decision but I don't agree. If they wanted to replace the NC I'd be for it.

[Tigger]

First year captains make between 3-4 times what first year FOs make. Pretty obvious who was doing the negotiating. If you guys want a fair deal, these guys need to go.

Seriously? Unbelievably short sighted. You will be a first year FO for precisely 365 days of your 30+ year career. That’s 0.03 percent of your career. You will spend the overwhelming majority of your career on that captain list. Have a little perspective.

[khedrei]

Edit: misunderstood what you said. It's not just the first year. The first 4 are pretty bad. The first 2 are really bad.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

I changed my mind. Now that her resignation promise is in the media she has to go. Thank you for your service.

[Tigger]

That is very misleading. Only a small % of FOs are upgrading in a year. and that will be drying up very quickly moving forward.

Of course you’re correct, but the point I’m making is that flat pay doesn’t last long in the grand scheme of things (though I know from first hand experience that it sure can feel that way sometimes) and that once you’re into formula pay it gets a LOT better. Improving those first two years (again, 0.67 percent of a 30 year career) at the expense of the next 99.3% — in either seat — seems incredibly shortsighted.

And this contract also improves (albeit maybe not enough) the captain to FO pay percentage, in addition to the across the board pay bump. There’s a table in the summary that shows third year widebody FO’s jump over 70% in pay from current year 3 flat pay.

[khedrei]

Not everyone has a 30 year career ahead of them at AC. Some people only have 10-15. It's far from .67% of anyone's career even if they stay 30 years.

I do get your point. The disparity in pay raise isn't fair, no matter how you slice it.

[rookiepilot]

First year captains make between 3-4 times what first year FOs make. Pretty obvious who was doing the negotiating. If you guys want a fair deal, these guys need to go.

Seriously? Unbelievably short sighted. You will be a first year FO for precisely 365 days of your 30+ year career. That’s 0.03 percent of your career. You will spend the overwhelming majority of your career on that captain list. Have a little perspective.

1 year is 0.03% of 30 years?

I didn’t know that. But I dropped out of college to start my business.

[khedrei]

Don't get me wrong, I think the bulk of the raises are VERY good. Which begs the question, why give great raises to ALMOST all of the pilot group? If the union could secure raises like that for the bulk of the members, why can't they get something comparable for the rest?

Seems like a pretty big screw you. Whether you agree or not that today's money is more valuable than tomorrow's, there certainly I'd a fairness aspect to it that was overlooked. This doesn't create unity.

[Tigger]

Not everyone has a 30 year career ahead of them at AC. Some people only have 10-15. It's far from .67% of anyone's career even if they stay 30 years.

I do get your point. The disparity in pay raise isn't fair, no matter how you slice it.

It’s very rarely I fly with a new hire who’s over 30 these days. And sadly, almost none of them get my clever 80’s pop culture references.

[Tigger]

1 year is 0.03% of 30 years?

I didn’t know that. But I dropped out of college to start my business.
[/quote]

Oh god, I’m an idiot and it looks like I should have stayed an extra year in uni — THREE percent. And then I went and doubled down on it too…. In my defense, it’s nice here and I’m on my fourth rum. Tell you what, I’ll buy the next round!

[rookiepilot]

1 year is 0.03% of 30 years?

I didn’t know that. But I dropped out of college to start my business.

Oh god, I’m an idiot and it looks like I should have stayed an extra year in uni — THREE percent. And then I went and doubled down on it too…. In my defense, it’s nice here and I’m on my fourth rum. Tell you what, I’ll buy the next round!
[/quote]

Done!

[rudder]

What exactly were the QOL improvements effective 2025?

Will any block holder be working less days? Will anybody be working less days?

Will any RSV pilot know in advance what their callout period is? Will it be assigned within seniority? Will there be any seniority rights for assignment of flight duty?

Will a 3 day 9:45 credit pairing still be worth 9:45?

Is AC still the only legacy carrier in North America with an ‘RP’ Pilot category?

Is this yet another contract being sold on ‘growth’?

It seems the entire discourse on yes-or-no is based excessively on pay. Too often that is how pilots think. And that is the company strategy knowing how pilots think. Save on efficiency. Spend on salary.

Individuals vote individually with equal weight per ballot cast. That is democracy. And priorities differ.

[Bede]

Don't get me wrong, I think the bulk of the raises are VERY good. Which begs the question, why give great raises to ALMOST all of the pilot group? If the union could secure raises like that for the bulk of the members, why can't they get something comparable for the rest?

Seems like a pretty big screw you. Whether you agree or not that today's money is more valuable than tomorrow's, there certainly I'd a fairness aspect to it that was overlooked. This doesn't create unity.

Didn't the junior pilots get a raise of higher percentage than the senior pilots?