Recall of the NC

[khedrei]

Weren't you the one who aknowledged the value of todays money vs tomorrows and talked about a discount rate going into the future? I would have thought that you knew that raw numbers are more important when calculating cost of living, especially when one makes very little money as opposed to looking at things from a % perspective.

[Whatsagambit?]

That is very misleading. Only a small % of FOs are upgrading in a year. and that will be drying up very quickly moving forward.

Of course you’re correct, but the point I’m making is that flat pay doesn’t last long in the grand scheme of things (though I know from first hand experience that it sure can feel that way sometimes) and that once you’re into formula pay it gets a LOT better. Improving those first two years (again, 0.67 percent of a 30 year career) at the expense of the next 99.3% — in either seat — seems incredibly shortsighted.

And this contract also improves (albeit maybe not enough) the captain to FO pay percentage, in addition to the across the board pay bump. There’s a table in the summary that shows third year widebody FO’s jump over 70% in pay from current year 3 flat pay.

Who taught you how to math?

It's 1/30 x100% =3.33%

Since it's two years of flat pay it's 2/30 x100% = 6.67% which is basically 7%.

Also you are forgetting that by increasing starting pay it means that other airlines need to compete. I don't know why this is so hard for everyone here to understand. Last year Porter upped their pay scales trying to also poach Jazz and Encore captains on the Q by offering signing bonuses. Also offering YOS on the Q trying to entice anyone including FOs to come over. Within a month the Jazz MEC has a new MOS from AC. First year FOs received approx a 50% raise overnight. Does anyone else see similarities to the US here? This is exactly what happened in the US after the floodgates opened.

Everyone basically got $20/hour extra. I can't understand why your entire senior captains base is now telling everyone that this unfair distribution of wages is fair all because of what they have suffered. They are also the ones that willingly worked for free after 9/11 to build time fucking the entire industry over. Sorry but if you can't do basic math then get out of the discussion. You probably won't also understand pension contributions early on in your career, tax brackets, and also opportunity costs lost due to voting on a ridiculous starting salary which doesn't compete with today's reality. You guys are fucking over not only yourselves but everyone else in Canada by accepting these low wages. Consider how the other airlines are supposed to react to your FOs receiving wages increases over what they are offering. Consider how many passengers you fly each day and the actual amount that they need to increase the ticket prices to achieve a fair contract for all pilots. It ain't much.

[TheStig]

The only people that benefit from this TA are the greedy fu cks already at the top of the pay scale who want to cash out even more the last few years before they retire. It's throwing the juniors under the bus once again for selfish gains - but then again when have boomers ever done anything other that...

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Shut up boomer. No one wants to hear your whining about how hard you had it (I bet you walked to school uphill both ways didn't you?) You're the most entitled and spoiled generation in the history of mankind - who had it the easiest of anyone before or since. You were handed everything by the selfless generation of your parents and want to pass on nothing to the next. That's your legacy.

How many years have you been at the top of the payscale making $200k+ a year when the cost of living was a fraction of what it is now? How much did your house cost per sqft? What were your wages at all those "terrible" Northern jobs adjusted for inflation?

You want to talk about boohoo? How about boohoo you get an 80k raise instead of 100k and that means the guys at the bottom don't have to live paycheck to paycheck? Or need to have a second job as a pilot at the national carrier? Or have to go to the food bank to feed their kids? But no, you rather be selfish and confirm the boomer slogan once again: "fu ck you, I got mine." Don't worry nobody expects anything less from you at this point. If you're triggered by my comments about your greed, it's because they're true and you feel guilty. If you're going to behave like an a-hole at least own it, instead of crying about it.

Pilots on years 1 and 2 received the second biggest raises in this TA (34.5% and 33.3%), the largest raises were to NB and WB FO's in years 3 and 4 (37% up to 70%). The QOL improvements and changes to per diem also benefit the junior members the most, as would ALPA oversight into monthly pairing construction and blocking.

Nearly 600 pilots are getting a 2 year bump in YOS to settle a grievance that is by no means guaranteed to be settled with a no vote. All that aside, the biggest gain for junior members is the flattening of the Captains pay scale.

Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough. The baby boom from post-war to the early 60's would mean there are maybe 100-200 boomers flying at the whole airline. Trying to scold a poster here as a Boomer isn't going to offend anyone because it's off target.

ACPA was founded and run by the Boomers, the transition to ALPA was done by Millennials, not the Gen-X pilots who sit in the top 1000 seniority numbers. The Gen-X pilots haven't had amazing careers and don't seem to complain about it, but I can't fault them for not being overly empathetic to year 1/2 pilots crying poverty at the $90,000-100,000/year job. If you were to only read what's written online about this TA you'd think there was some generational battle going on. However, when you talk to pilots at AC, they mostly admit that they actually do pretty well under the terms of the TA even if it didn't meet their initial expectations.

The TA adds 46% value to a poor contract, it doesn't make it world class, that would have been around 100% added value. As the MEC stated, it was the most they could extract from the company at this point in time. Even if they tuned out the online trolls, the tantrums and vitriol from their own ranks directed towards the NC and MEC make you wonder why anyone would want to fill those positions?

[thepoors]

I've been in aviation for close to 40 years. Been through 9/11, SARS, the global financial crisis, mergers, bankruptcies, COVID, recessions, layoffs and now in the last few years before retirement I'm called greedy because I don't want to give it up for the juniors? You have no idea what crap most of the seniors have gone through but I can tell you it's a whole lot worse than living in your parent's basement after getting hired to fly a jet for a major airline with 2000 hours. Boo Hoo. Tell me how many years you spent working a dock in Yellowknife. Tell me how many years you spent living in a crewhouse on a reserve doing 24 hour/day oncall. OMG, you have to commute to your jet at AC because Toronto is too expensive - the horror.

You have a serious chip on your shoulder - should probably get some counselling for that as it will eat away at you.

Shut up boomer. No one wants to hear your whining about how hard you had it (I bet you walked to school uphill both ways didn't you?) You're the most entitled and spoiled generation in the history of mankind - who had it the easiest of anyone before or since. You were handed everything by the selfless generation of your parents and want to pass on nothing to the next. That's your legacy.

How many years have you been at the top of the payscale making $200k+ a year when the cost of living was a fraction of what it is now? How much did your house cost per sqft? What were your wages at all those "terrible" Northern jobs adjusted for inflation?

You want to talk about boohoo? How about boohoo you get an 80k raise instead of 100k and that means the guys at the bottom don't have to live paycheck to paycheck? Or need to have a second job as a pilot at the national carrier? Or have to go to the food bank to feed their kids? But no, you rather be selfish and confirm the boomer slogan once again: "fu ck you, I got mine." Don't worry nobody expects anything less from you at this point. If you're triggered by my comments about your greed, it's because they're true and you feel guilty. If you're going to behave like an a-hole at least own it, instead of crying about it.

Pilots on years 1 and 2 received the second biggest raises in this TA (34.5% and 33.3%), the largest raises were to NB and WB FO's in years 3 and 4 (37% up to 70%). The QOL improvements and changes to per diem also benefit the junior members the most, as would ALPA oversight into monthly pairing construction and blocking.

Nearly 600 pilots are getting a 2 year bump in YOS to settle a grievance that is by no means guaranteed to be settled with a no vote. All that aside, the biggest gain for junior members is the flattening of the Captains pay scale.

Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough. The baby boom from post-war to the early 60's would mean there are maybe 100-200 boomers flying at the whole airline. Trying to scold a poster here as a Boomer isn't going to offend anyone because it's off target.

ACPA was founded and run by the Boomers, the transition to ALPA was done by Millennials, not the Gen-X pilots who sit in the top 1000 seniority numbers. The Gen-X pilots haven't had amazing careers and don't seem to complain about it, but I can't fault them for not being overly empathetic to year 1/2 pilots crying poverty at the $90,000-100,000/year job. If you were to only read what's written online about this TA you'd think there was some generational battle going on. However, when you talk to pilots at AC, they mostly admit that they actually do pretty well under the terms of the TA even if it didn't meet their initial expectations.

The TA adds 46% value to a poor contract, it doesn't make it world class, that would have been around 100% added value. As the MEC stated, it was the most they could extract from the company at this point in time. Even if they tuned out the online trolls, the tantrums and vitriol from their own ranks directed towards the NC and MEC make you wonder why anyone would want to fill those positions?

You realize that 30% of shit is still shit right? And nobody in year 1 or 2 is making 90-100k... Have you even looked at the FO pay scales?

The fact that you're delusional enough to believe this: "Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough." ...also completely discredits you.

Anyone that took an early retirement deal did it for a big payout. To say that they did it to "save" guys from furlough is hilarious. The senior group at this company has proven time and again they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone junior - as will be evidenced again when this TA is voted in.

[TheStig]

You realize that 30% of shit is still shit right? And nobody in year 1 or 2 is making 90-100k... Have you even looked at the FO pay scales?

The fact that you're delusional enough to believe this: "Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough." ...also completely discredits you.

Anyone that took an early retirement deal did it for a big payout. To say that they did it to "save" guys from furlough is hilarious. The senior group at this company has proven time and again they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone junior - as will be evidenced again when this TA is voted in.

There was no payout in 2020, just a YOS pension top up. In the 2 re-openers under the 10 year framework almost the entirety of the cost-neutral bargaining capital went into 2 things. 1) switching from the DC pension plan to the CWIPP to benefit the junior and 'unborn' membership. 2) Exchanging the cap on rouge fleet size for x2.5 time draft for rouge pilots. Massive benefits for the junior membership.

How long have you worked at AC for? You don't think a pilot joining this month could easily earn 100K in 2025 earning 87.48/98.60? I do very little, if anything, outside my block and my T4 is always hourly rate x100 +10-15%.

[Aerkavo]

Shut up boomer. No one wants to hear your whining about how hard you had it (I bet you walked to school uphill both ways didn't you?) You're the most entitled and spoiled generation in the history of mankind - who had it the easiest of anyone before or since. You were handed everything by the selfless generation of your parents and want to pass on nothing to the next. That's your legacy.

How many years have you been at the top of the payscale making $200k+ a year when the cost of living was a fraction of what it is now? How much did your house cost per sqft? What were your wages at all those "terrible" Northern jobs adjusted for inflation?

You want to talk about boohoo? How about boohoo you get an 80k raise instead of 100k and that means the guys at the bottom don't have to live paycheck to paycheck? Or need to have a second job as a pilot at the national carrier? Or have to go to the food bank to feed their kids? But no, you rather be selfish and confirm the boomer slogan once again: "fu ck you, I got mine." Don't worry nobody expects anything less from you at this point. If you're triggered by my comments about your greed, it's because they're true and you feel guilty. If you're going to behave like an a-hole at least own it, instead of crying about it.

Pilots on years 1 and 2 received the second biggest raises in this TA (34.5% and 33.3%), the largest raises were to NB and WB FO's in years 3 and 4 (37% up to 70%). The QOL improvements and changes to per diem also benefit the junior members the most, as would ALPA oversight into monthly pairing construction and blocking.

Nearly 600 pilots are getting a 2 year bump in YOS to settle a grievance that is by no means guaranteed to be settled with a no vote. All that aside, the biggest gain for junior members is the flattening of the Captains pay scale.

Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough. The baby boom from post-war to the early 60's would mean there are maybe 100-200 boomers flying at the whole airline. Trying to scold a poster here as a Boomer isn't going to offend anyone because it's off target.

ACPA was founded and run by the Boomers, the transition to ALPA was done by Millennials, not the Gen-X pilots who sit in the top 1000 seniority numbers. The Gen-X pilots haven't had amazing careers and don't seem to complain about it, but I can't fault them for not being overly empathetic to year 1/2 pilots crying poverty at the $90,000-100,000/year job. If you were to only read what's written online about this TA you'd think there was some generational battle going on. However, when you talk to pilots at AC, they mostly admit that they actually do pretty well under the terms of the TA even if it didn't meet their initial expectations.

The TA adds 46% value to a poor contract, it doesn't make it world class, that would have been around 100% added value. As the MEC stated, it was the most they could extract from the company at this point in time. Even if they tuned out the online trolls, the tantrums and vitriol from their own ranks directed towards the NC and MEC make you wonder why anyone would want to fill those positions?

You realize that 30% of shit is still shit right? And nobody in year 1 or 2 is making 90-100k... Have you even looked at the FO pay scales?

The fact that you're delusional enough to believe this: "Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough." ...also completely discredits you.

Anyone that took an early retirement deal did it for a big payout. To say that they did it to "save" guys from furlough is hilarious. The senior group at this company has proven time and again they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone junior - as will be evidenced again when this TA is voted in.

I went back and checked a few numbers. The flat pay when I started was equivalent to $51K (inflation adjusted). I got $1500/month to fly the C-185 which equates to $3300 today, the Beaver paid $2000/month - $4500/month in today's dollars. Don't forget these are seasonal jobs, no pay during freezeup and breakup so really only working about 8 months/year.

The new contract will pay ~ $80K/year and this is apparently the highest it's ever been in inflation adjusted terms but you think it's "shit". I have a feeling I could hand you the keys to a Cadillac and you'd call it shit because it wasn't an Audi. I could buy you a steak dinner and you'd call it shit because it wasn't Wagu.

When I got hired the flat pay was $51K and the movement up the list was slow. I couldn't afford to live in Toronto so I had to commute from a cheaper city and even then I had to live far outside of it. You think the guy who's put in 25 or 30 years should subsidize the guy who's been here a year but think I'm entitled when I disagree.

In this TA the juniors get a higher percentage than the senior pilots. In previous contracts much has been sacrificed by the senior pilots to move the new hires from a DCC plan to a CWIPP plan. So much so that most projections show the CWIPP will pay out higher than the DB plan.

On my last overseas flight I spent well over a hundred dollars buying drinks for my junior FO and RP but now I have to wonder - have I been played? Am I a sucker for doing this? Are they calling me a "greedy fu ck" behind my back?

Here's what I suggest to "thepoors" - every time you check in you should tell the Capt you're working with how you feel about senior pilots and the company - see how that goes for you.

You think the seniors are out to steal from you? You've been told before but I'll tell you again what that looks like - when the senior pilots negotiate a "B" scale or a "C" scale that forever prevents you from reaching their level - that's when you are being treated unfairly. This TA ain't that!

[Dry Guy]

Please try to be less divisive.

[thepoors]

Pilots on years 1 and 2 received the second biggest raises in this TA (34.5% and 33.3%), the largest raises were to NB and WB FO's in years 3 and 4 (37% up to 70%). The QOL improvements and changes to per diem also benefit the junior members the most, as would ALPA oversight into monthly pairing construction and blocking.

Nearly 600 pilots are getting a 2 year bump in YOS to settle a grievance that is by no means guaranteed to be settled with a no vote. All that aside, the biggest gain for junior members is the flattening of the Captains pay scale.

Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough. The baby boom from post-war to the early 60's would mean there are maybe 100-200 boomers flying at the whole airline. Trying to scold a poster here as a Boomer isn't going to offend anyone because it's off target.

ACPA was founded and run by the Boomers, the transition to ALPA was done by Millennials, not the Gen-X pilots who sit in the top 1000 seniority numbers. The Gen-X pilots haven't had amazing careers and don't seem to complain about it, but I can't fault them for not being overly empathetic to year 1/2 pilots crying poverty at the $90,000-100,000/year job. If you were to only read what's written online about this TA you'd think there was some generational battle going on. However, when you talk to pilots at AC, they mostly admit that they actually do pretty well under the terms of the TA even if it didn't meet their initial expectations.

The TA adds 46% value to a poor contract, it doesn't make it world class, that would have been around 100% added value. As the MEC stated, it was the most they could extract from the company at this point in time. Even if they tuned out the online trolls, the tantrums and vitriol from their own ranks directed towards the NC and MEC make you wonder why anyone would want to fill those positions?

You realize that 30% of shit is still shit right? And nobody in year 1 or 2 is making 90-100k... Have you even looked at the FO pay scales?

The fact that you're delusional enough to believe this: "Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough." ...also completely discredits you.

Anyone that took an early retirement deal did it for a big payout. To say that they did it to "save" guys from furlough is hilarious. The senior group at this company has proven time and again they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone junior - as will be evidenced again when this TA is voted in.

I went back and checked a few numbers. The flat pay when I started was equivalent to $51K (inflation adjusted). I got $1500/month to fly the C-185 which equates to $3300 today, the Beaver paid $2000/month - $4500/month in today's dollars. Don't forget these are seasonal jobs, no pay during freezeup and breakup so really only working about 8 months/year.

The new contract will pay ~ $80K/year and this is apparently the highest it's ever been in inflation adjusted terms but you think it's "shit". I have a feeling I could hand you the keys to a Cadillac and you'd call it shit because it wasn't an Audi. I could buy you a steak dinner and you'd call it shit because it wasn't Wagu.

When I got hired the flat pay was $51K and the movement up the list was slow. I couldn't afford to live in Toronto so I had to commute from a cheaper city and even then I had to live far outside of it. You think the guy who's put in 25 or 30 years should subsidize the guy who's been here a year but think I'm entitled when I disagree.

In this TA the juniors get a higher percentage than the senior pilots. In previous contracts much has been sacrificed by the senior pilots to move the new hires from a DCC plan to a CWIPP plan. So much so that most projections show the CWIPP will pay out higher than the DB plan.

On my last overseas flight I spent well over a hundred dollars buying drinks for my junior FO and RP but now I have to wonder - have I been played? Am I a sucker for doing this? Are they calling me a "greedy fu ck" behind my back?

Here's what I suggest to "thepoors" - every time you check in you should tell the Capt you're working with how you feel about senior pilots and the company - see how that goes for you.

You think the seniors are out to steal from you? You've been told before but I'll tell you again what that looks like - when the senior pilots negotiate a "B" scale or a "C" scale that forever prevents you from reaching their level - that's when you are being treated unfairly. This TA ain't that!

Man if I were you I wouldn't bring up the actual numbers because it quickly invalidates whatever idiotic point you're trying to make.

You say you made $51k on flat pay 30 years ago? $51k in 1996 adjusted for inflation is $100k... and that's not even taking into account the exponentially higher cost of living in 2024. The average home price in Canada in 1996 was $198,000 or $395,000 adjusted for inflation. What's the average home price today?...basically double that.

You have no clue what it means to struggle to afford a living. So stfu and go park your ass in the bunk while one RP does your job and another deadheads that 16hr flight in Y. Oh you spent "hundreds of dollars" on some drinks, what's that 0.02 of your monthly paycheck? Did the FO make sure to thank you for your charity? Did it make you feel like a big man??

[Icamefromspace]

You realize that 30% of shit is still shit right? And nobody in year 1 or 2 is making 90-100k... Have you even looked at the FO pay scales?

The fact that you're delusional enough to believe this: "Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough." ...also completely discredits you.

Anyone that took an early retirement deal did it for a big payout. To say that they did it to "save" guys from furlough is hilarious. The senior group at this company has proven time and again they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone junior - as will be evidenced again when this TA is voted in.

I went back and checked a few numbers. The flat pay when I started was equivalent to $51K (inflation adjusted). I got $1500/month to fly the C-185 which equates to $3300 today, the Beaver paid $2000/month - $4500/month in today's dollars. Don't forget these are seasonal jobs, no pay during freezeup and breakup so really only working about 8 months/year.

The new contract will pay ~ $80K/year and this is apparently the highest it's ever been in inflation adjusted terms but you think it's "shit". I have a feeling I could hand you the keys to a Cadillac and you'd call it shit because it wasn't an Audi. I could buy you a steak dinner and you'd call it shit because it wasn't Wagu.

When I got hired the flat pay was $51K and the movement up the list was slow. I couldn't afford to live in Toronto so I had to commute from a cheaper city and even then I had to live far outside of it. You think the guy who's put in 25 or 30 years should subsidize the guy who's been here a year but think I'm entitled when I disagree.

In this TA the juniors get a higher percentage than the senior pilots. In previous contracts much has been sacrificed by the senior pilots to move the new hires from a DCC plan to a CWIPP plan. So much so that most projections show the CWIPP will pay out higher than the DB plan.

On my last overseas flight I spent well over a hundred dollars buying drinks for my junior FO and RP but now I have to wonder - have I been played? Am I a sucker for doing this? Are they calling me a "greedy fu ck" behind my back?

Here's what I suggest to "thepoors" - every time you check in you should tell the Capt you're working with how you feel about senior pilots and the company - see how that goes for you.

You think the seniors are out to steal from you? You've been told before but I'll tell you again what that looks like - when the senior pilots negotiate a "B" scale or a "C" scale that forever prevents you from reaching their level - that's when you are being treated unfairly. This TA ain't that!

Man if I were you I wouldn't bring up the actual numbers because it quickly invalidates whatever idiotic point you're trying to make.

You say you made $51k on flat pay 30 years ago? $51k in 1996 adjusted for inflation is $100k... and that's not even taking into account the exponentially higher cost of living in 2024. The average home price in Canada in 1996 was $198,000 or $395,000 adjusted for inflation. What's the average home price today?...basically double that.

You have no clue what it means to struggle to afford a living. So stfu and go park your ass in the bunk while one RP does your job and another deadheads that 16hr flight in Y. Oh you spent "hundreds of dollars" on some drinks, what's that 0.02 of your monthly paycheck? Did the FO make sure to thank you for your charity? Did it make you feel like a big man??

Did you even read his post? "The flat pay when I started was equivalent to $51K (inflation adjusted)". Good god go outside or something because you sound like an absolute sniveling ass.

[thepoors]

That's plainly a lie. If you look at the 2003 pay scales a year 3 DC9 FO was making $130k inflation adjusted (which is more than a year 3 777 FO will be making under this new contract btw). Flat pay was not less than half that. Probably the early onset dementia talking.

[Whatsagambit?]

Pilots on years 1 and 2 received the second biggest raises in this TA (34.5% and 33.3%), the largest raises were to NB and WB FO's in years 3 and 4 (37% up to 70%). The QOL improvements and changes to per diem also benefit the junior members the most, as would ALPA oversight into monthly pairing construction and blocking.

Nearly 600 pilots are getting a 2 year bump in YOS to settle a grievance that is by no means guaranteed to be settled with a no vote. All that aside, the biggest gain for junior members is the flattening of the Captains pay scale.

Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough. The baby boom from post-war to the early 60's would mean there are maybe 100-200 boomers flying at the whole airline. Trying to scold a poster here as a Boomer isn't going to offend anyone because it's off target.

ACPA was founded and run by the Boomers, the transition to ALPA was done by Millennials, not the Gen-X pilots who sit in the top 1000 seniority numbers. The Gen-X pilots haven't had amazing careers and don't seem to complain about it, but I can't fault them for not being overly empathetic to year 1/2 pilots crying poverty at the $90,000-100,000/year job. If you were to only read what's written online about this TA you'd think there was some generational battle going on. However, when you talk to pilots at AC, they mostly admit that they actually do pretty well under the terms of the TA even if it didn't meet their initial expectations.

The TA adds 46% value to a poor contract, it doesn't make it world class, that would have been around 100% added value. As the MEC stated, it was the most they could extract from the company at this point in time. Even if they tuned out the online trolls, the tantrums and vitriol from their own ranks directed towards the NC and MEC make you wonder why anyone would want to fill those positions?

You realize that 30% of shit is still shit right? And nobody in year 1 or 2 is making 90-100k... Have you even looked at the FO pay scales?

The fact that you're delusional enough to believe this: "Most Boomers retired early in the pandemic to try and save junior pilots from furlough." ...also completely discredits you.

Anyone that took an early retirement deal did it for a big payout. To say that they did it to "save" guys from furlough is hilarious. The senior group at this company has proven time and again they couldn't give a rat's ass about anyone junior - as will be evidenced again when this TA is voted in.

I went back and checked a few numbers. The flat pay when I started was equivalent to $51K (inflation adjusted). I got $1500/month to fly the C-185 which equates to $3300 today, the Beaver paid $2000/month - $4500/month in today's dollars. Don't forget these are seasonal jobs, no pay during freezeup and breakup so really only working about 8 months/year.

The new contract will pay ~ $80K/year and this is apparently the highest it's ever been in inflation adjusted terms but you think it's "shit". I have a feeling I could hand you the keys to a Cadillac and you'd call it shit because it wasn't an Audi. I could buy you a steak dinner and you'd call it shit because it wasn't Wagu.

When I got hired the flat pay was $51K and the movement up the list was slow. I couldn't afford to live in Toronto so I had to commute from a cheaper city and even then I had to live far outside of it. You think the guy who's put in 25 or 30 years should subsidize the guy who's been here a year but think I'm entitled when I disagree.

In this TA the juniors get a higher percentage than the senior pilots. In previous contracts much has been sacrificed by the senior pilots to move the new hires from a DCC plan to a CWIPP plan. So much so that most projections show the CWIPP will pay out higher than the DB plan.

On my last overseas flight I spent well over a hundred dollars buying drinks for my junior FO and RP but now I have to wonder - have I been played? Am I a sucker for doing this? Are they calling me a "greedy fu ck" behind my back?

Here's what I suggest to "thepoors" - every time you check in you should tell the Capt you're working with how you feel about senior pilots and the company - see how that goes for you.

You think the seniors are out to steal from you? You've been told before but I'll tell you again what that looks like - when the senior pilots negotiate a "B" scale or a "C" scale that forever prevents you from reaching their level - that's when you are being treated unfairly. This TA ain't that!

You got paid 51k inflation adjusted? When did you start working? How much was housing then? What did a car cost? What was the price of gas and groceries? Considering housing has basically doubled every ten years in Canada it looks like you had more buying power than the current Gen.

These same people telling all the younger pilots, not even young, just year 1/2 FOs that they are the generation of I want it now. They're the same people that grew up where their parents were able to live off a single income, have two cars, go on vacation 4 weeks a year, and own their own home.

I wonder what happened to that being the way of life? They were sold the idea of trickle down economics and their unions were disenfranchised by right to work states in the US. Now it's supposed to be the norm that everyone works two jobs and has to suffer like all their children did.

These same people that will complain that you haven't suffered like they have. You haven't suffered enough. Not one bit. But then will tell all of you how much you have to suffer so that they can get their fair share. Seriously. You guys throw this whole suffering thing that apparently only you've had to do in our faces, talking about all the sacrifices you had to make in order to get where you are now. But we all know if the opportunities presented themselves to make more money while you were suffering, you all would have taken it.

So I ask why now you are telling the people who are just starting that they too have to suffer just like you did. That they need to "put the gear up and zip it". You sure haven't stopped complaining about all the suffering you've been through. Why should they not complain that you are passing the buck once again and not taking care of the younger guys?

Using a simple tax calculator for ontario. The guys currently making 300k are going to take home about $180000 per year. Yes I know more nuanced than this but I'm using a simple tax calculator.

Increase that to 400k. Now their takehome pay is $225k per year.

Shave off say 20k so they make $380000. Their takehome pay is $215000. So they lose $20k off their income and it their takehome pay only goes down another 10k per year.

Shave off another 20k so they are being paid 360k per year. Their takehome is estimated at 206k. So it took a 40k pay raise to be able to make an extra 20k takehome.

Now apply that to the younger guys.
A 78k income means takehome pay is 58.5k

Let's say it's 100k they take home about 74k.

At 120k you'd take home 86k.

You all seem concerned with percentages here. Without actually seeing how much extra money everyone stands to gain. You all want that 100k extra pay raise while the first and second years get an extra 20k. Well here's the percentages then so you can actually see what you have to give up to make a substantial change for your FOs.

If you stand to make 400k you are getting an increase of 45k per year. Approx 25% increase.

At 380k you get an extra 35k takehome a 19.5% increase.

Add on 20k to the lower guys so they make 100k, a 15.5k increase but a 26.5% increase to your takehome pay. Which is pretty substantial gains for the top guys only having to sacrifice 5.5% takehome pay.

Then on top of that you have all the extra income early on in your career that goes towards your pension early on. Which compounds year after year. So that also adds up, especially after 30 years. The senior guys telling all the younglings how much they still need to sacrifice to get on their level. Yet they won't even consider sacrificing 5.5% of their takehome pay in realized gains so that you could get an addition 26.5% increase to yours.

Then they wonder why first and second years won't just zip it and put the gear up all while complaining they had to pay a hundred dollars for drinks on their layover but behind their back are wondering if you are saying they are greedy. You've shown with this TA and the attitude you have towards your younger selves that you are greedy.

Not to mention all the QOL changes you wanted 3 weeks ago. The extra 9 hours everyone is expected to work each month. AC has done exactly what they wanted once again with every union it has had to negotiate with. Divide and conquer. Is the 5.5% gains really going to add that much length to your ego? A 26.5% gain to the younger generation would sure help them out though. Especially getting started on their lives and getting a family going. That way they don't have to sacrifice nearly as much as you did when starting out and the next generation doesn't have to hear about it.

[Slugger]

If you are all that unhappy, there is the door. Go to the US or whatever Utopian airline that will cater to your every whim, pay you a ton of money and only allow you to work 8 days a month. Best of luck in your future endeavours.

[khedrei]

Haven't you been paying attention? They don't want to sacrifice anything for the young guys. That money belongs to them, well, not yet but it will after the vote. They earned it.

Now that it's been offered, it looks like a sacrifice. If the union came out with a different pay chart it would never have looked like a sacrifice cause it would have never existed in the first place.

Imagine if the raises were 80k for the new FOs and 40k for the captains. Pretty sure the outrage would have been the opposite. FOs got a higher raise! And look at that %!! That's like 170% raise. How come they get that and we only get 15%. If that was presented it would have been called a sacrifice if anyone asked for it to get adjusted the other way. But because it was never offered it's not thought of that way. I would say it's still a sacrifice. The young guys sacrificed the possibility of a proper decent raise so the captains could get a huge one instead and because the union never demanded it. They also made sure no one saw it as a possibilty so it can't be called a sacrifice.

[thepoors]

If you are all that unhappy, there is the door. Go to the US or whatever Utopian airline that will cater to your every whim, pay you a ton of money and only allow you to work 8 days a month. Best of luck in your future endeavours.

Great attitude. This is why Canadian aviation continues to be a cesspool.

Advocate for change and get told to leave or called a complainer. We should all just be happy we get to fly airplanes right?...for the "passion." Keep settling for subpar wawcon and "if you don't like it, get out." Because whining about how hard they had it back in good old days is reserved for them. And no one else has suffered or faced hardship in aviation since.

[Aerkavo]

Man if I were you I wouldn't bring up the actual numbers because it quickly invalidates whatever idiotic point you're trying to make.

You say you made $51k on flat pay 30 years ago? $51k in 1996 adjusted for inflation is $100k... and that's not even taking into account the exponentially higher cost of living in 2024. The average home price in Canada in 1996 was $198,000 or $395,000 adjusted for inflation. What's the average home price today?...basically double that.

You have no clue what it means to struggle to afford a living. So stfu and go park your ass in the bunk while one RP does your job and another deadheads that 16hr flight in Y. Oh you spent "hundreds of dollars" on some drinks, what's that 0.02 of your monthly paycheck? Did the FO make sure to thank you for your charity? Did it make you feel like a big man??

Quoted for posterity.

You are so blinded by anger that you seem unable to read and comprehend what is being told to you. It's obvious you have some demons you are wrestling with. I hope someday you find peace and wish you well. I mean that sincerely. If you contact me via PM I can send you some resources that might help.

[Aerkavo]

Then they wonder why first and second years won't just zip it and put the gear up all while complaining they had to pay a hundred dollars for drinks on their layover but behind their back are wondering if you are saying they are greedy. You've shown with this TA and the attitude you have towards your younger selves that you are greedy.

I'll make the same offer that I made to thepoors; if you need some assistance finding a mental health professional just contact me via PM. Even though this is an anonymous forum it's clear you are being stressed and challenged beyond your limit.

Please reach out to EAP or contact me and I'll help you.

[daedalusx]

If you are all that unhappy, there is the door. Go to the US or whatever Utopian airline that will cater to your every whim, pay you a ton of money and only allow you to work 8 days a month. Best of luck in your future endeavours.

Great attitude. This is why Canadian aviation continues to be a cesspool.

Advocate for change and get told to leave or called a complainer. We should all just be happy we get to fly airplanes right?...for the "passion." Keep settling for subpar wawcon and "if you don't like it, get out." Because whining about how hard they had it back in good old days is reserved for them. And no one else has suffered or faced hardship in aviation since.

When the Day of the Pillow comes, no tears will be shed.

[CaptDukeNukem]

You guys are insanely ruthless to each other, and you work at the same company.

Solidarity? Where? The company split you guys. That was the plan.

[thepoors]

Then they wonder why first and second years won't just zip it and put the gear up all while complaining they had to pay a hundred dollars for drinks on their layover but behind their back are wondering if you are saying they are greedy. You've shown with this TA and the attitude you have towards your younger selves that you are greedy.

I'll make the same offer that I made to thepoors; if you need some assistance finding a mental health professional just contact me via PM. Even though this is an anonymous forum it's clear you are being stressed and challenged beyond your limit.

Please reach out to EAP or contact me and I'll help you.

Seriously dude? Get out of here with this shit. If anyone needs mental help it's you. Go see somebody, you can afford it.

[Aerkavo]

Seriously dude? Get out of here with this shit. If anyone needs mental help it's you. Go see somebody, you can afford it.

If you are worried about cost you needn't be - these services are covered by your medical coverage. Contact EAP for a referral. It's all confidential. The same goes for any relationship problems or issues at home.

[thepoors]

Seriously dude? Get out of here with this shit. If anyone needs mental help it's you. Go see somebody, you can afford it.

If you are worried about cost you needn't be - these services are covered by your medical coverage. Contact EAP for a referral. It's all confidential. The same goes for any relationship problems or issues at home.

Are you so cretinous that you don't realize the irony of this?

If anyone is actually feeling that way, it's because of the conditions you're directly responsible for and are endorsing.

[rookiepilot]

Then they wonder why first and second years won't just zip it and put the gear up all while complaining they had to pay a hundred dollars for drinks on their layover but behind their back are wondering if you are saying they are greedy. You've shown with this TA and the attitude you have towards your younger selves that you are greedy.

I'll make the same offer that I made to thepoors; if you need some assistance finding a mental health professional just contact me via PM. Even though this is an anonymous forum it's clear you are being stressed and challenged beyond your limit.

Please reach out to EAP or contact me and I'll help you.

I am not in the industry. (Thank God! ).

Just an observation.

This comment is really classless and out of line —- “Captain”. Grow up.

You’re really coming off as a real winner here.

Where are the mods. Discipline people.

[Aerkavo]

This comment is really classless and out of line —- “Captain”. Grow up.

Really?

1.) I stop by the forum occasionally but any post I make, any time of the night or day, is almost immediately replied to by thepoors. This tells me that he (she) is here; All. The. Time. That's not healthy.
2.) Any attempt at rational discussion is met with profanity-laced rants with hyper specific stacks of statistics. That's not healthy.
3.) Posting behavior on social media forums is highly predictive for detecting mental health issues. Sometimes as relatively minor as stress and sometimes for more serious conditions.

Of course I'm not a mental health practitioner but I have had some exposure to friends and co-workers that have had "problems". I've always regretted not offering assistance when I could.

I fail to see how offering assistance to someone struggling is classless.

[rookiepilot]

This comment is really classless and out of line —- “Captain”. Grow up.

Really?

1.) I stop by the forum occasionally but any post I make, any time of the night or day, is almost immediately replied to by thepoors. This tells me that he (she) is here; All. The. Time. That's not healthy.
2.) Any attempt at rational discussion is met with profanity-laced rants with hyper specific stacks of statistics. That's not healthy.
3.) Posting behavior on social media forums is highly predictive for detecting mental health issues. Sometimes as relatively minor as stress and sometimes for more serious conditions.

Of course I'm not a mental health practitioner but I have had some exposure to friends and co-workers that have had "problems". I've always regretted not offering assistance when I could.

I fail to see how offering assistance to someone struggling is classless.

It depends on the context and your intentions in doing so.

Do you offer mental health referrals to any FO who disagrees with you, online or in the cockpit?

[thepoors]

This comment is really classless and out of line —- “Captain”. Grow up.

Really?

1.) I stop by the forum occasionally but any post I make, any time of the night or day, is almost immediately replied to by thepoors. This tells me that he (she) is here; All. The. Time. That's not healthy.
2.) Any attempt at rational discussion is met with profanity-laced rants with hyper specific stacks of statistics. That's not healthy.
3.) Posting behavior on social media forums is highly predictive for detecting mental health issues. Sometimes as relatively minor as stress and sometimes for more serious conditions.

Of course I'm not a mental health practitioner but I have had some exposure to friends and co-workers that have had "problems". I've always regretted not offering assistance when I could.

I fail to see how offering assistance to someone struggling is classless.

It depends on the context and your intentions in doing so.

Do you offer mental health referrals to any FO who disagrees with you, online or in the cockpit?

He buys them drinks, remember. So he can feel good about himself and cater some favour, after he steps all over their self worth. Then offers unsolicited advice about mental health.

He really can't fill the boomer stereotype any more perfectly.