To our furloughed pilots

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Protonpilot
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To our furloughed pilots

Post by Protonpilot »

Just watched the archived webinar from the MEC Chair and the NC.

Very surprised and happy to learn that the 600 furloughed pilots (COVID) will get their years of service reinstated for pay progression and vacation.

We have a few groups of pilots with previous furlough time (1992 and 2003) that never got that. No other Air Canada employees have ever gotten that, and there were tens of thousands of layoffs during COVID.

The YOS grievance was the longest of long shots, no precedents in Canadian labour law or in the code itself that would have pointed to any chance of success. Was told as much by a few different lawyers over the last few years.

Happy for the win for these guys.
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Dias
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Dias »

It's not so much a win as a removal of a huge F YOU. The government wanted to give them the money for our wages but they said no.
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Bingo Fuel
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Bingo Fuel »

Only because the pilot who was 13th from the bottom of the furlough list was either on leave or long term disability (GDIP), and therefore continued to accrue years of service

The 12 most junior furloughed pilots get nothing.
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cdnavater
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by cdnavater »

**** wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:37 pm It's not so much a win as a removal of a huge F YOU. The government wanted to give them the money for our wages but they said no.
Jesus Christ, this fuck8ng sums up everything about everything, no one on the planet who got laid off were granted YOS for that time and that’s your response!!!
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ant_321
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by ant_321 »

I think his point, although not well stated, is they shouldn’t have been “laid off”. Air Canada could have used the CEWS program to keep pilots on a reduced salary at no cost to them and chose not to when all the other companies around them were.
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cdnavater
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by cdnavater »

ant_321 wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 4:28 am I think his point, although not well stated, is they shouldn’t have been “laid off”. Air Canada could have used the CEWS program to keep pilots on a reduced salary at no cost to them and chose not to when all the other companies around them were.
If I remember correctly, there was a cost to them, there were pension and benefit issues, as well as the obvious, YOS.
Clearly a cost to that, AC loves their flat pay and didn’t want any pilots off it any sooner than possible, I’m surprised they settled it and those 12 should be mad as hell, that is the part I find ridiculous and a huge F you. AC could have garnered some good will if they just included all of them, so yes it was a win.
As has been stated in the past, typically when you get a new contract, past grievances are settled as part of it, who know what would have happened in arbitration, because one guy goes on disability, the company has to pay 600 pilots and keep from laying off, I doubt an arbitration would have landed on that solution.
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BTD
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by BTD »

Unfortunately those 12 were not part of the grievance as they had no one junior to them that remained during layoffs. So the grievance was settled.

I’d also imagine, with the other contracts coming up and the layoffs other departments experienced showing “goodwill” could set a precedent for other groups. I think this is the best we could have realistically expected, but it does suck big time for those 12.
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daedalusx
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by daedalusx »

Didn't WJ pilots kept their YOS during the Covid layoff ?
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itsgrosswhatinet
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by itsgrosswhatinet »

cdnavater wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:26 am I’m surprised they settled it and those 12 should be mad as hell, that is the part I find ridiculous and a huge F you. AC could have garnered some good will if they just included all of them, so yes it was a win.
They don't want good will they want to demoralize. This is the company that wants to eliminate the $5 allowance for paying our hotel shuttle driver. Staff stop tipping, the driver stops showing up early, flights get delayed.
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Protonpilot
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Protonpilot »

BTD wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 9:05 am Unfortunately those 12 were not part of the grievance as they had no one junior to them that remained during layoffs. So the grievance was settled.

I’d also imagine, with the other contracts coming up and the layoffs other departments experienced showing “goodwill” could set a precedent for other groups. I think this is the best we could have realistically expected, but it does suck big time for those 12.
Those 12 have now been included. It was announced by the MEC Chair in YUL yesterday.

Wow.
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Jimmy_Hoffa
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Jimmy_Hoffa »

itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 11:35 am
cdnavater wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:26 am I’m surprised they settled it and those 12 should be mad as hell, that is the part I find ridiculous and a huge F you. AC could have garnered some good will if they just included all of them, so yes it was a win.
They don't want good will they want to demoralize. This is the company that wants to eliminate the $5 allowance for paying our hotel shuttle driver. Staff stop tipping, the driver stops showing up early, flights get delayed.
Except they didn't. They incorporated it into the new rate structure.
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lownslow
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by lownslow »

Protonpilot wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 8:54 am Those 12 have now been included. It was announced by the MEC Chair in YUL yesterday.

Wow.
So are we cheering for those twelve or booing the contract not being followed? It’s so hard to keep up some days.
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Jean-Pierre
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Jean-Pierre »

I mean they got 600 votes for pretty cheap.
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BTD
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by BTD »

lownslow wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:08 pm
Protonpilot wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 8:54 am Those 12 have now been included. It was announced by the MEC Chair in YUL yesterday.

Wow.
So are we cheering for those twelve or booing the contract not being followed? It’s so hard to keep up some days.
I am glad that those 12 get their years of service. But in their case the contract was followed. It was those above that were part of the grievance.
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altiplano
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by altiplano »

I think he's saying that not giving YOS to the 12 is following the contract, but the company/association is going to lean in and adjust on what is shaping up as a marginal vote and tweaking it. Going against the TA. Little sprinkle here with the 12, a little sprinkle there with the pass fees... That's not normal.

This is my fifth contact time here and I've never seen a post TA sprinkle happen before. Not on MOAs. not on main table deals...

This belies their desperation... we still have leverage.
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Dockjock
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Dockjock »

This is it we captured everything.

[10 minutes later]

More things.


Ya this ain’t done yet.
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Protonpilot
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Protonpilot »

itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 11:35 am They don't want good will they want to demoralize. This is the company that wants to eliminate the $5 allowance for paying our hotel shuttle driver. Staff stop tipping, the driver stops showing up early, flights get delayed.
The TA website has an example of all the pairings for October, comparing expenses under our old (complicated) system and the new hourly TAFB system. In most cases, expenses are up about 30%, and you'll actually get paid reliably because it's so simple.

A small number of pairings where the money is slightly lower, but lots where it's way higher. Milan, Venice, Lisbon for a 24 hour layover, expenses almost double from $170 to over $300.

Yes, they've rolled in the $5 transportation allowance into the new rates, so instead of $295 per diems plus $5 transportation, it just says $300. Big deal.

Sounds like somebody is just looking for an excuse to not tip the driver!
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cdnavater
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by cdnavater »

Protonpilot wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 9:02 am
itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2024 11:35 am They don't want good will they want to demoralize. This is the company that wants to eliminate the $5 allowance for paying our hotel shuttle driver. Staff stop tipping, the driver stops showing up early, flights get delayed.
The TA website has an example of all the pairings for October, comparing expenses under our old (complicated) system and the new hourly TAFB system. In most cases, expenses are up about 30%, and you'll actually get paid reliably because it's so simple.

A small number of pairings where the money is slightly lower, but lots where it's way higher. Milan, Venice, Lisbon for a 24 hour layover, expenses almost double from $170 to over $300.

Yes, they've rolled in the $5 transportation allowance into the new rates, so instead of $295 per diems plus $5 transportation, it just says $300. Big deal.

Sounds like somebody is just looking for an excuse to not tip the driver!
Careful, you’re going to get a lot of flak for considering per diems income, in 3, 2, 1….
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itsgrosswhatinet
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by itsgrosswhatinet »

It's income in return for expense. And speaking of good will, per diems are tax free. If you wanted to actually be on your employee's good side why not give the maximum allowed under the tax code. Now that's good will.
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rudder
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by rudder »

itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:30 am It's income in return for expense. And speaking of good will, per diems are tax free. If you wanted to actually be on your employee's good side why not give the maximum allowed under the tax code. Now that's good will.
It is not ‘income’ in Canada. If it was, it would be taxed as it is in the US.

In Canada, it is a non-receipted expense reimbursement (like a cab ride when the limo is late except that one requires a receipt for company records as they will be ultimately be claiming it as an expense). There is a de facto daily limit for per diems (see CRA government employee daily meal and incidental expense schedule).

Transat is pretty close to the limit. The AC TA values under a TAFB system are also close to the limit. Any higher, and you might have CRA sniffing around.
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Protonpilot
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Protonpilot »

rudder wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:59 am
itsgrosswhatinet wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:30 am It's income in return for expense. And speaking of good will, per diems are tax free. If you wanted to actually be on your employee's good side why not give the maximum allowed under the tax code. Now that's good will.
It is not ‘income’ in Canada. If it was, it would be taxed as it is in the US.

In Canada, it is a non-receipted expense reimbursement (like a cab ride when the limo is late except that one requires a receipt for company records as they will be ultimately be claiming it as an expense). There is a de facto daily limit for per diems (see CRA government employee daily meal and incidental expense schedule).

Transat is pretty close to the limit. The AC TA values under a TAFB system are also close to the limit. Any higher, and you might have CRA sniffing around.
Agreed.

Pretty much how it was explained at the roadshow last week. There was a fair bit of consultation with our tax lawyers as well as Air Canada's. The rates were knocked down to ensure compliance and avoid unnecessary scrutiny from CRA.

I came away thinking it will be a way better system, with more money in my pocket.
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Protonpilot
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Protonpilot »

altiplano wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 12:20 am
This is my fifth contact time here and I've never seen a post TA sprinkle happen before. Not on MOAs. not on main table deals...
You don't remember Ben Smith back in 2014 announcing at a roadshow that pilots would be receiving 3 x B1 passes for the length of the ten year deal?

That wasn't in the Executive Summary, it was added as candy just prior to the vote opening.
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freighter27
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by freighter27 »

That deal passed with something like 84% of the vote, was not a sprinkle sweetener, or if it was, AC pilots really are as dumb as some around here think...
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altiplano
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by altiplano »

Protonpilot wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 4:07 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 12:20 am
This is my fifth contact time here and I've never seen a post TA sprinkle happen before. Not on MOAs. not on main table deals...
You don't remember Ben Smith back in 2014 announcing at a roadshow that pilots would be receiving 3 x B1 passes for the length of the ten year deal?

That wasn't in the Executive Summary, it was added as candy just prior to the vote opening.
No. That was leaked out immediately that we would get that. It wasn't in the executive summary because it wasn't in the contract.
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Protonpilot
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Re: To our furloughed pilots

Post by Protonpilot »

Back to the original thread.

Now that it's been confirmed by the Company and ALPA that the reinstatement of YOS applies to all 600 pilots affected, I hope there's some recognition from this group of where that MOA lives, and where it dies. It doesn't have much chance of surviving a failed TA. I'm not a lawyer, but after speaking with a few (including a labour lawyer not employed by ALPA) their opinion is that the chances of seeing that kind of award in arbitration is about zero. Millions of Canadians were laid off during COVID, no arbitrator is going to set that kind of precedent.

Very happy that this group of 600 got what no pilot before them ever got. I hope they hold on to those years of service. It's a big win for them.
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