Tsb report out on 2023 piper saratoga fatal crash

[oldncold]

Tsb today released report of the cfccy crash that departed cybw> destination salmon arm bc hit Mcgillvary moutain. Tragic end.

[J31]

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... w0091.html

[yhz41]

Can't even feel sorry for this moron. Just for everyone else's lives he ruined. You have a duty as a pilot when passengers are trusting you. Church is not this important.

[rookiepilot]

Very much like many similar accidents around Hope BC, in reverse. (Wind Direction)

Like westerly moisture laden winds coming from the fraser valley, similar Easterly winds out of Calgary pile up the clouds against the mountains…..creates a chokepoint, weather will always be much worse than farther from than the mountains.

[CensoredLF]

I know this area well. 100 of my 300 hours are mountain time. I would never have gone past Ghost Lake with that weather. I hope I would have stayed on the ground to begin with.

So sad, so unnecessary.
CLF

[cncpc]

Very much like many similar accidents around Hope BC, in reverse. (Wind Direction)

Like westerly moisture laden winds coming from the fraser valley, similar Easterly winds out of Calgary pile up the clouds against the mountains…..creates a chokepoint, weather will always be much worse than farther from than the mountains.

Like westerly moisture laden winds coming from the fraser valley, similar Easterly winds out of Calgary pile up the clouds against the mountains…..creates a chokepoint, weather will always be much worse than farther from than the mountains.
[/quote]

These people were doomed from the moment wheels came off the ground at Springbank, Rookie. 260 hours. Thurmon Munson syndrome on a smaller scale. No experience base to inform judgment. Religious. It is never helpful for a pilot to believe in utter horseshit, on the grand scale of how did all this get here, and writ small, on his own capabilities to thread his way through cloud and rain to something other than that which is obviously inevitable. You are not wrong about the genesis of bad weather there and at Hope. However, every mountain pilot who never died looks at those hourlies and the forecast and says "No. Not today.".

One of the nicest feelings is that of having come into questionable weather, and always turning around.

The TSB highlighted the protection flying with professionals provided. You've none of those guardrails when Daddy lets you fly what you want when you want.

[shamrock104]

I most definitely feel sorry for his passengers and their families.

[BigQ]

Small aside, I have flown with plenty of religious pilots, and have dealt with coworkers with worst cases of get-home-itis wanting to go to a hot date or going to see a hockey game, than religious men about to miss a church service.

Just wanted to mention that, since there are two comments above that "suggest" religious = stupid. This could very well be a non sequitur.

RIP

[TeePeeCreeper]

Small aside, I have flown with plenty of religious pilots, and have dealt with coworkers with worst cases of get-home-itis wanting to go to a hot date or going to see a hockey game, than religious men about to miss a church service.

Just wanted to mention that, since there are two comments above that "suggest" religious = stupid. This could very well be a non sequitur.

RIP

As a non observant person brought up in a faith based household I agree.

Although I agree with the principle “shouldn’t have been there in the first place” whomever called the PIC a moron obviously thinks that they too are incapable of making a bad decision or call… Now that’s not only a moronic comment to make but the guy isn’t here to defend or explain his DM process. Utterly classless imho.

TPC

[CaptDukeNukem]

I skimmed the report. Where does it say anything about religion?

[BigQ]

Nowhere. But the various articles on the web about this accident mentioned the pilot and passengers were headed to a church service in Salmon Arm

[rookiepilot]

Religion neither causes nor will prevent accidents like this exceptionally poor PDM, people do that, where they were going is irrelevant.

[cncpc]

I most definitely feel sorry for his passengers and their families.

Me too. I feel sorry for the pilot as well.

The connection to religion has been misconstrued here.

[digits_]

The connection to religion has been misconstrued here.

How so? The passengers were on their way to a church event. If they were not religious, they very likely would not have been on that flight.

I don't think anyone here is claiming they were counting on divine intervention to get them through the clouds or the mountains, but this accident most likely wouldn't have happened if religion wasn't a factor.

If religious people are pushing the envelope to make it to a religious event, it's very likely a factor and most certainly something that's worth investigating.

Perhaps going off on a bit of a tangent, I've noticed that when openly religious people get involved in incidents with some questionable decision making, people are quick to add that their religion was not a factor in those decisions. Which makes me wonder, if your religious beliefs don't influence your decisions or actions, are you really religious, or are you just pretending?

[rookiepilot]

The connection to religion has been misconstrued here.

How so? The passengers were on their way to a church event. If they were not religious, they very likely would not have been on that flight.

I don't think anyone here is claiming they were counting on divine intervention to get them through the clouds or the mountains, but this accident most likely wouldn't have happened if religion wasn't a factor.

If religious people are pushing the envelope to make it to a religious event, it's very likely a factor and most certainly something that's worth investigating.

Perhaps going off on a bit of a tangent, I've noticed that when openly religious people get involved in incidents with some questionable decision making, people are quick to add that their religion was not a factor in those decisions. Which makes me wonder, if your religious beliefs don't influence your decisions or actions, are you really religious, or are you just pretending?

Really, really dumb post.

Rethink this.

I am religious. (Or might be described this way)

I go to Starbucks cause Tim's sucks. Not because of my religion.

I hang out with friends cause I like them. Drive up and catch a hockey game -- same reason.

I have cancelled tons of flights cause it was stupid to leave the ground in my mind.

Including volunteer flights that were really important to the passenger -- a patient needing a medical appointment. Tough. Just not safe.

Even you and Tbayer should get this.

[pelmet]

I think that the key thing is that they were going to an 'event' that they likely very much wanted to participate in. There is no shortage of accidents where the pilot was under pressure to make it to the 'event' whether self-induced or from others.

The key thing is to be willing to cancel and piss off your cohorts. It is helpful to make it clear in advance that there is a good chance that there will be a cancellation due to the realities of general aviation and how it is affected by weather.

I had an 'event' this summer to participate in for the owner of an aircraft that is greatly affected by environmental factors. I made it clear that there was a 50/50 chance of cancellation well in advance, so that he understood.

Choosing who you fly with can be important as well. Who wants to listen to buddy at the campfire with beers going on about you being a chicken and trying to get a laugh or perhaps trying to push you into bad decision-making.

Someone mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that the flight was doomed as soon as it left the ground. That is wrong. The weather was actually quite good and there would have been plenty of time to turn around.

Choosing to fly to a destination in the mountains and arrive at the time of official darkness was bad decision making. So was attempting a flight in the mountains in marginal weather.

[digits_]

I am religious. (Or might be described this way)

I go to Starbucks cause Tim's sucks. Not because of my religion.

Right. And what reason would you have to travel a couple of hours to attend a church service other than your religion?

If you were to crash because you desperately wanted to visit a specific Starbucks and flew through crappy weather, your coffee habits would be a factor. If you were to crash because you wanted to go see your favorite hockey team play an important game, your sports team fandom would be a factor.

In all those accidents, your decision making would be the main culprit, but those are influenced by your personality. For some that might be coffee preference or sports team fandom but for some that's religion.

I hang out with friends cause I like them. Drive up and catch a hockey game -- same reason.

I have cancelled tons of flights cause it was stupid to leave the ground in my mind.

Including volunteer flights that were really important to the passenger -- a patient needing a medical appointment. Tough. Just not safe.

That's great. This pilot didn't. Why?

I am not claiming that every religious pilot would crash trying to make it to church. What I am fairly certain of, is that if this pilot wasn't religious, this accident wouldn't have happened. If he made better decisions, he wouldn't have crashed either. Both are a factor.

[digits_]

I think that the key thing is that they were going to an 'event' that they likely very much wanted to participate in. There is no shortage of accidents where the pilot was under pressure to make it to the 'event' whether self-induced or from others.

Agreed. For this to be a danger, one needs to feel strongly about attending the event. Religion is one of those things people can feel very strongly about. Since this was a religious event, religion is objectively a factor.

Denying this seems a bit bizarre.

[rookiepilot]

I think that the key thing is that they were going to an 'event' that they likely very much wanted to participate in. There is no shortage of accidents where the pilot was under pressure to make it to the 'event' whether self-induced or from others.

The key thing is to be willing to cancel and piss off your cohorts.

This is perhaps the best post you have made. Exactly right.

People pleasing leads to all kinds of ruin, sooner or later.

I have no problem pissing someone off if I am right, passengers, friends, or ATC, if its required.

That's what being PIC means, in an airplane, and also in life.

[flyinhigh]

I was on the heart trail earlier in the day of this accident. To try and fly this route VFR that day and the previous day was just stupid PDM.

Only good news is that it sounds like they went straight into the wall, thus no suffering. I feel for the passengers, and the young widow as no ones family deserves to go through what they are dealing with.

This report highlights the need for sound judgement, learn to say NO.

[pelmet]

I think that the key thing is that they were going to an 'event' that they likely very much wanted to participate in. There is no shortage of accidents where the pilot was under pressure to make it to the 'event' whether self-induced or from others.

The key thing is to be willing to cancel and piss off your cohorts.

People pleasing leads to all kinds of ruin, sooner or later.

I have no problem pissing someone off if I am right, passengers, friends, or ATC, if its required.

It actually goes beyond that. You have to be willing to piss people off when you might be wrong.

I have been sitting around in a hotel with the commercial operation grounded because the weather was potentially marginal with few reasonable alternates. Taking fuel for a good alternate would cut too much into the payload(or maybe it was one big piece - I don't remember).

What was the forecast? Good enough to go. But experience told the captain that forecasts are sometimes wrong and local weather knowledge said that if things were not as forecast, we would have a problem. What did the actual weather turn out to be? As forecast. Was the captain wrong to cancel the flight that night?

[rookiepilot]

I think that the key thing is that they were going to an 'event' that they likely very much wanted to participate in. There is no shortage of accidents where the pilot was under pressure to make it to the 'event' whether self-induced or from others.

The key thing is to be willing to cancel and piss off your cohorts.

People pleasing leads to all kinds of ruin, sooner or later.

I have no problem pissing someone off if I am right, passengers, friends, or ATC, if its required.

It actually goes beyond that. You have to be willing to piss people off when you might be wrong.

I have been sitting around in a hotel with the commercial operation grounded because the weather was potentially marginal with few reasonable alternates. Taking fuel for a good alternate would cut too much into the payload(or maybe it was one big piece - I don't remember).

What was the forecast? Good enough to go. But experience told the captain that forecasts are sometimes wrong and local weather knowledge said that if things were not as forecast, we would have a problem. What did the actual weather turn out to be? As forecast. Was the captain wrong to cancel the flight that night?

No of course not, because the consequences of poor weather did not allow an out. I think it’s that out, a really good alternate, that is important.

Once this guy in the Saratoga, got too deep into the mountains, he also had no out. The valley narrowed, viz went down, boom you’re in hard IMC with no options. There is an Air Safety institute video virtually identical to this accident.

In your captain’s case, His experience made his judgement call the right one. The call is made at the time, with the information and his experience available.

Same thing has happened to me. Its annoying in hindsight when the weather turns out OK but ultimately irrelevant to making a correct risk management call.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I think that the key thing is that they were going to an 'event' that they likely very much wanted to participate in. There is no shortage of accidents where the pilot was under pressure to make it to the 'event' whether self-induced or from others.

Agreed. For this to be a danger, one needs to feel strongly about attending the event. Religion is one of those things people can feel very strongly about. Since this was a religious event, religion is objectively a factor.

Denying this seems a bit bizarre.

Does that mean if they were golfers and were flying to a seminar on golf, that golf was a contributing factor to the crash? You wouldn't say that "golf" was a factor in the crash any more than "religion" was a factor in this crash.

Religion (in this case) was simply the reason that they were flying from A to B. Same as if a golfer was flying from A to B to attend a golf event. Aside from the report stating why they were flying somewhere, it wouldn't be given a second thought by this community.

[digits_]

I think that the key thing is that they were going to an 'event' that they likely very much wanted to participate in. There is no shortage of accidents where the pilot was under pressure to make it to the 'event' whether self-induced or from others.

Agreed. For this to be a danger, one needs to feel strongly about attending the event. Religion is one of those things people can feel very strongly about. Since this was a religious event, religion is objectively a factor.

Denying this seems a bit bizarre.

Does that mean if they were golfers and were flying to a seminar on golf, that golf was a contributing factor to the crash? You wouldn't say that "golf" was a factor in the crash any more than "religion" was a factor in this crash.

Religion (in this case) was simply the reason that they were flying from A to B. Same as if a golfer was flying from A to B to attend a golf event. Aside from the report stating why they were flying somewhere, it wouldn't be given a second thought by this community.

If they were pushing weather to make it to the golf swminar, then yes I would. I just think that the group of people finding religion very important is bigger than the group of people that find golfing very important. That's what makes it more interesting as the bigger group has a bigger chance of having like minded people getting caught in similar situations.

Some will undoubtedly disagree, but religion usually has a bigger influence on ones life and mindset than golf. Investigating a pilot's mindset during an incident can teach us a lot, or possibly nothing. But it's still worth investigating.

[pelmet]

Some will undoubtedly disagree, but religion usually has a bigger influence on ones life and mindset than golf. Investigating a pilot's mindset during an incident can teach us a lot, or possibly nothing. But it's still worth investigating.

Bottom line, wanting to make an event, regardless of reason, is frequently the problem.

While the underlying reason for that want may be higher than other reasons(such as the event of delivering an organ to a needy patient), that debate would be better discussed on a separate thread.