Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

FelixGustof
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:42 pm

Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by FelixGustof »

Just following along and pretty shocked to see Air Canada pilots agree to have starting pay less than Flair.

I thought they were World Class and had red lanyards around there neck saying as such??
---------- ADS -----------
 
TCAS II
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:12 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by TCAS II »

Doesn’t sound world class to me.
---------- ADS -----------
 
330heavy
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by 330heavy »

There's more to a contract than starting pay. One would have to weigh and compare the whole contract to others. Is it world class? No. Is it Canadian class? Barely. I will say, it seems the company wins with how divided the pilot group is over this TA. Best of luck to you guys.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dry Guy
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by Dry Guy »

330heavy wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 5:56 am Is it Canadian class? Barely.
So what do we have to lose by striking then.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Bede
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4677
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:52 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by Bede »

330heavy wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 5:56 am There's more to a contract than starting pay. One would have to weigh and compare the whole contract to others. Is it world class? No. Is it Canadian class? Barely. I will say, it seems the company wins with how divided the pilot group is over this TA. Best of luck to you guys.
AC pilots will get the final say over whether or not they are divided or united. Debate at this stage is great, but, when the results are in, the minority will have to fall in line and support respect the will of the majority.
---------- ADS -----------
 
RochVoisine
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:47 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by RochVoisine »

Dry Guy wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 6:11 am
330heavy wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 5:56 am Is it Canadian class? Barely.
So what do we have to lose by striking then.
Nothing. But the MEC caved in the final moments.

ALPA's new mantra is "Peak leverage is before the strike". Hundreds of years of labour activities proven wrong by ALPA which relies on pattern bargaining and lengthy campaigns under the Railway Labour Act.

Too bad these guys didn't even do that with Westjet being superior in a number of ways and even with Flair & Porter...

ALPA just isn't built to fight the tough corporate companies in this country. They rather turtle and save money then strike. The Contingency & Strike funds may as well be at the end of rainbows. They will not be used. It's just all a dog & pony show which gets marginal results.
---------- ADS -----------
 
itsgrosswhatinet
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:15 pm
Location: Upper Rubber Boot Airways

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by itsgrosswhatinet »

Dry Guy wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 6:11 am
330heavy wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 5:56 am Is it Canadian class? Barely.
So what do we have to lose by striking then.
This is what I don't get. The risk everyone is afraid of is binding arbitration right? I don't really think the arbitrator is going to give us less than this.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Safety starts with two
ZBBYLW
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:28 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by ZBBYLW »

The only base representatives that feels we are world class is in Toronto.

I am very disappointed in the YVR FO rep, I thought he valued us a bit more.

YUL - I'll be polite but I'm not surprised
YWG - weird technicality had them with as many votes as YYZ. You can buy a nice home 20 mins to the airport for half of YYZ.
YVR - CA rep obviously felt it was short and FO rep went along with the fear.

YYZ - All voted no. I don't understand why role call voting wasn't used.

The MEC decided to blow up the unity and progress we had made and decided to fold at the last minute. MR got his WestJet contract.
---------- ADS -----------
 
CaptDukeNukem
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

ZBBYLW wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:16 am The only base representatives that feels we are world class is in Toronto.

I am very disappointed in the YVR FO rep, I thought he valued us a bit more.

YUL - I'll be polite but I'm not surprised
YWG - weird technicality had them with as many votes as YYZ. You can buy a nice home 20 mins to the airport for half of YYZ.
YVR - CA rep obviously felt it was short and FO rep went along with the fear.

YYZ - All voted no. I don't understand why role call voting wasn't used.

The MEC decided to blow up the unity and progress we had made and decided to fold at the last minute. MR got his WestJet contract.
Soon to come: huge exec bonuses due to successful negotiations and cost savings for the company
---------- ADS -----------
 
garfield
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:35 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by garfield »

If they accept this deal it’s gonna be a sad day for Canadian aviation
---------- ADS -----------
 
CaptDukeNukem
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

garfield wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:32 am If they accept this deal it’s gonna be a sad day for Canadian aviation
Unless you’re an AC exec
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
daedalusx
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 818
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:51 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by daedalusx »

ZBBYLW wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:16 am The only base representatives that feels we are world class is in Toronto.

I am very disappointed in the YVR FO rep, I thought he valued us a bit more.

YUL - I'll be polite but I'm not surprised
YWG - weird technicality had them with as many votes as YYZ. You can buy a nice home 20 mins to the airport for half of YYZ.
YVR - CA rep obviously felt it was short and FO rep went along with the fear.

YYZ - All voted no. I don't understand why role call voting wasn't used.

The MEC decided to blow up the unity and progress we had made and decided to fold at the last minute. MR got his WestJet contract.
Westjet has way better lifestyle than AC both on NB and WB and they’re only on their second contract, the first one was arbitrated and the second one they didn’t make the money gains they could have because of Swoop and Sunwing consolidation under 1 AOC.
AC had none of these factors and should have made major gains in lifestyle.

What happened?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
CaptDukeNukem
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:33 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

daedalusx wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 9:00 am
ZBBYLW wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 8:16 am The only base representatives that feels we are world class is in Toronto.

I am very disappointed in the YVR FO rep, I thought he valued us a bit more.

YUL - I'll be polite but I'm not surprised
YWG - weird technicality had them with as many votes as YYZ. You can buy a nice home 20 mins to the airport for half of YYZ.
YVR - CA rep obviously felt it was short and FO rep went along with the fear.

YYZ - All voted no. I don't understand why role call voting wasn't used.

The MEC decided to blow up the unity and progress we had made and decided to fold at the last minute. MR got his WestJet contract.
Westjet has way better lifestyle than AC both on NB and WB and they’re only on their second contract, the first one was arbitrated and the second one they didn’t make the money gains they could have because of Swoop and Sunwing consolidation under 1 AOC.
AC had none of these factors and should have made major gains in lifestyle.

What happened?
Complex systems won’t survive the competence crisis
---------- ADS -----------
 
Yellowbelly
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:33 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by Yellowbelly »

They choked.

Look at that crew. Bunch of air Cadets that were given wedgies their whole life that were thrust into power because no one else really wants to run a union. It rarely ends well going against a team of professional negotiators that are paid big money to suppress labour.

A whole lot of hype to merge with a union that doesn't strike.

Ever.

How many deals has ALPA negotiated since a strike in 2010?

They would rather concede then tap into that quote on quote "war chest"
---------- ADS -----------
 
itsgrosswhatinet
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:15 pm
Location: Upper Rubber Boot Airways

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by itsgrosswhatinet »

I'm not trying to negotiate with our negotiating committee or outsmart our MEC. They asked me what I thought was fair on the survey and I told them 2003 wages plus inflation. I vote no to the TA because it does not give us that. Simple as.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Safety starts with two
TheStig
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 871
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by TheStig »

daedalusx wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 9:00 am
Westjet has way better lifestyle than AC both on NB and WB and they’re only on their second contract, the first one was arbitrated and the second one they didn’t make the money gains they could have because of Swoop and Sunwing consolidation under 1 AOC.
AC had none of these factors and should have made major gains in lifestyle.

What happened?
Could someone expand on this? I've heard it thrown around but nobody has given specific examples, what in the WJ contract exceeds what AC pilots have?

For example, I understand WJ pilots get higher vacation credit per day, but AC pilots get more vacation days per year, by 2026 AC pilots annual vacation credits will exceed WJ's.

What do WJ pilots get for minimum daily credit, trip rigs, or ADG?

Hotels? Pension?

J class deadheads? Before anyone mentions RP's please remember that the TA eliminates pairings with single direction augment, that's a massive gain for RP's.

On the wide body aircraft how is the lifestyle better than AC? How is it better on the narrow bodies? Please don't tell me it's because of socialized bidding.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
crystalpizza
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:27 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by crystalpizza »

TheStig wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:51 am
daedalusx wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 9:00 am
Westjet has way better lifestyle than AC both on NB and WB and they’re only on their second contract, the first one was arbitrated and the second one they didn’t make the money gains they could have because of Swoop and Sunwing consolidation under 1 AOC.
AC had none of these factors and should have made major gains in lifestyle.

What happened?
Could someone expand on this? I've heard it thrown around but nobody has given specific examples, what in the WJ contract exceeds what AC pilots have?

For example, I understand WJ pilots get higher vacation credit per day, but AC pilots get more vacation days per year, by 2026 AC pilots annual vacation credits will exceed WJ's.

What do WJ pilots get for minimum daily credit, trip rigs, or ADG?

Hotels? Pension?

J class deadheads? Before anyone mentions RP's please remember that the TA eliminates pairings with single direction augment, that's a massive gain for RP's.

On the wide body aircraft how is the lifestyle better than AC? How is it better on the narrow bodies? Please don't tell me it's because of socialized bidding.
Literally nothing that AC didn't either already have or will be getting in this TA. Except long call reserve, training in the block, and of course socialized bidding as you mentioned.

And a YYC and YEG base I guess if that counts.
---------- ADS -----------
 
phenix
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:14 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by phenix »

TheStig wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:51 am
daedalusx wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 9:00 am
Westjet has way better lifestyle than AC both on NB and WB and they’re only on their second contract, the first one was arbitrated and the second one they didn’t make the money gains they could have because of Swoop and Sunwing consolidation under 1 AOC.
AC had none of these factors and should have made major gains in lifestyle.

What happened?
Could someone expand on this? I've heard it thrown around but nobody has given specific examples, what in the WJ contract exceeds what AC pilots have?

For example, I understand WJ pilots get higher vacation credit per day, but AC pilots get more vacation days per year, by 2026 AC pilots annual vacation credits will exceed WJ's.

What do WJ pilots get for minimum daily credit, trip rigs, or ADG?

Hotels? Pension?

J class deadheads? Before anyone mentions RP's please remember that the TA eliminates pairings with single direction augment, that's a massive gain for RP's.

On the wide body aircraft how is the lifestyle better than AC? How is it better on the narrow bodies? Please don't tell me it's because of socialized bidding.
AC pilots are comparing their contract to WJ now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTCqo2fd4g8
This video aged like fine milk
---------- ADS -----------
 
cdnavater
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2590
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:25 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by cdnavater »

phenix wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 3:02 pm
TheStig wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:51 am
daedalusx wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 9:00 am
Westjet has way better lifestyle than AC both on NB and WB and they’re only on their second contract, the first one was arbitrated and the second one they didn’t make the money gains they could have because of Swoop and Sunwing consolidation under 1 AOC.
AC had none of these factors and should have made major gains in lifestyle.

What happened?
Could someone expand on this? I've heard it thrown around but nobody has given specific examples, what in the WJ contract exceeds what AC pilots have?

For example, I understand WJ pilots get higher vacation credit per day, but AC pilots get more vacation days per year, by 2026 AC pilots annual vacation credits will exceed WJ's.

What do WJ pilots get for minimum daily credit, trip rigs, or ADG?

Hotels? Pension?

J class deadheads? Before anyone mentions RP's please remember that the TA eliminates pairings with single direction augment, that's a massive gain for RP's.

On the wide body aircraft how is the lifestyle better than AC? How is it better on the narrow bodies? Please don't tell me it's because of socialized bidding.
AC pilots are comparing their contract to WJ now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTCqo2fd4g8
This video aged like fine milk
No, someone said they didn’t even achieve a WestJet QOL and then someone asked for some examples of where WJ exceeds the new AC TA, you’re caught up now!
---------- ADS -----------
 
ant_321
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 940
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by ant_321 »

And they’re miles behind most of the QOL in the SWG contract, for the few months we have left.
---------- ADS -----------
 
bob99
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:12 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by bob99 »

TheStig wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 11:51 am
daedalusx wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 9:00 am
Westjet has way better lifestyle than AC both on NB and WB and they’re only on their second contract, the first one was arbitrated and the second one they didn’t make the money gains they could have because of Swoop and Sunwing consolidation under 1 AOC.
AC had none of these factors and should have made major gains in lifestyle.

What happened?
Could someone expand on this? I've heard it thrown around but nobody has given specific examples, what in the WJ contract exceeds what AC pilots have?

For example, I understand WJ pilots get higher vacation credit per day, but AC pilots get more vacation days per year, by 2026 AC pilots annual vacation credits will exceed WJ's.

What do WJ pilots get for minimum daily credit, trip rigs, or ADG?

Hotels? Pension?

J class deadheads? Before anyone mentions RP's please remember that the TA eliminates pairings with single direction augment, that's a massive gain for RP's.

On the wide body aircraft how is the lifestyle better than AC? How is it better on the narrow bodies? Please don't tell me it's because of socialized bidding.
At WJ, a vacation day equals a full additional day off. For example if you take 5 days of vacation, the max they can work you is 11 days. This is how it works pretty much everywhere except Air Canada. At AC, you can take 7 days of vacation and you'll still commonly work 14+ days. Vacation also starts immediately at WJ whereas AC you have to accrue it first.

No loss of credit for a fatigue drop at WJ.

Training is inside the block at WJ. NB at WJ is typically 10-12 days of work vs 15-16 at AC.
---------- ADS -----------
 
BigGreen
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2023 6:54 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by BigGreen »

World Class Airline Pilots shouldn't:

- be paid 50% to deadhead
- have starting pay less than Flair
- have 4 years of flat pay
- be the only pilot group without a proper bonus plan
- be giving up scope concessions
- have the worst average daily guarantee of any legacy airline, and you get that in 2027
- completely worst TAFB ratio in the world of 4:1
- have to contribute 39% of the total 18% of salary contributions required for a pension plan while US legacy airline pilots contribute 0%
- have to train outside of block
- have to wait till 36 hrs before a deadhead to be released. Other carriers are immediate once pairing assigned
- have to be on short call reserve, all the time if not assigned anything
- be rewarded for speeding to the airport and the potential safety concerns with distressed & rushed pilots
- be forced "Draft on the Go", ever. You should have a block and that should be what you do
- not have blockholder rights once assigned a pairing on reserve
- have commutes "reviewed on a case by case basis"
- have their schedule "unstacked"
- have the lowest paid % of captain pay by a large margin to other legacy carriers
- not have it in their collective agreement that no other employee group will have better passes (like every other pilot group)
- have to rely on a cap of 16 days because of horrendous productivity rules and terrible pairings
---------- ADS -----------
 
garfield
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 296
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:35 pm

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by garfield »

BigGreen wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 6:24 pm World Class Airline Pilots shouldn't:

- be paid 50% to deadhead
- have starting pay less than Flair
- have 4 years of flat pay
- be the only pilot group without a proper bonus plan
- be giving up scope concessions
- have the worst average daily guarantee of any legacy airline, and you get that in 2027
- completely worst TAFB ratio in the world of 4:1
- have to contribute 39% of the total 18% of salary contributions required for a pension plan while US legacy airline pilots contribute 0%
- have to train outside of block
- have to wait till 36 hrs before a deadhead to be released. Other carriers are immediate once pairing assigned
- have to be on short call reserve, all the time if not assigned anything
- be rewarded for speeding to the airport and the potential safety concerns with distressed & rushed pilots
- be forced "Draft on the Go", ever. You should have a block and that should be what you do
- not have blockholder rights once assigned a pairing on reserve
- have commutes "reviewed on a case by case basis"
- have their schedule "unstacked"
- have the lowest paid % of captain pay by a large margin to other legacy carriers
- not have it in their collective agreement that no other employee group will have better passes (like every other pilot group)
- have to rely on a cap of 16 days because of horrendous productivity rules and terrible pairings
+1
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dockjock
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1076
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:46 pm
Location: south saturn delta

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by Dockjock »

We do have the biggest pile of dry powder on the planet tho. Get em “next time.”
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
‘Bob’
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1018
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:19 am

Re: Does a Yes Vote mean Air Canada Pilots aren't World Class?

Post by ‘Bob’ »

“wOrL kLaS kOnTrAk!!!1!1!!1!! hOdE tEh LiNe!1!1!1!1!!”
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”