67% yes

[just clearing the trees]

what an embarrassment, time to polish up the resume and get out of this mess.

A request for you. Keep in touch with your course mates from your new-hire class. Then, compare your situation in 5 years to see if you made the right choice. I'm curious how it works out for you - keep us informed.

I would be very interested to see that play out, if I actually believed anyone would actually leave as a result of this contract. I just don't see it. If someone had the résumé to land a job better than AC, why didn't they already go there while things at AC were 40% worse?

[RAIM]

There are 2 terms all pilots should become familiar with:

Extended Minimum-Crew Operations (eMCOs) where single-pilot operations are allowed during the cruise phase of the flight, with a level of safety equivalent to today’s two-pilot operations

Single-Pilot Operations (SiPOs), where, at a later stage, end-to-end single-pilot operations might be allowed, offering at least a level of safety equivalent to today’s two-pilot operations provided that compensation means are in place

Jason Ambrosie had an interesting quote today:

“Some aircraft manufacturers are designing airliners to be flown with only one pilot on the flight deck during the cruise portion of the flight, and eventually with zero pilots. This profit-over-safety scheme is actually being supported by some aviation safety regulators and airlines, contrary to the highest standard of aviation safety. Global transportation workers are standing in solidarity against this effort to undermine workers’ rights and safe skies.”

So it's clear there is movement on this and ALPA is concerned

Honestly...what's ALPA going to do?

Parade around and make big speeches?

We saw the big pow wow over "ending the discount on Canadian wages" that ended up being nothing more than a giant flop.

They ain't doing jack. They will cave in and just stop talking about it. Staff & lawyers still getting paid. No worries there.

[Airbusses]

Honest question. What did you guys realistically expect for wage gains?

[thepoors]

Honest question. What did you guys realistically expect for wage gains?

2003 wages adjusted for inflation (which isn't really a "gain" in the true sense). And at the very least 100k/yr starting. How we accepted a contract where yr 1-3 still make less than Flair is ridiculous.

[altiplano]

Honest question. What did you guys realistically expect for wage gains?

2003 wages adjusted for inflation (which isn't really a "gain" in the true sense). And at the very least 100k/yr starting. How we accepted a contract where yr 1-3 still make less than Flair is ridiculous.

How much is 2003 first year pay inflation adjusted to 2024?

[thepoors]

Honest question. What did you guys realistically expect for wage gains?

2003 wages adjusted for inflation (which isn't really a "gain" in the true sense). And at the very least 100k/yr starting. How we accepted a contract where yr 1-3 still make less than Flair is ridiculous.

How much is 2003 first year pay inflation adjusted to 2024?

About 91k

[flyingfool]

Honest question. What did you guys realistically expect for wage gains?

You have to remember this new deal is almost completely costed with wage improvements.

If you don't like the wage gains, then you don't even want to hear about the complete lack of other gains.

[crystalpizza]

2003 wages adjusted for inflation (which isn't really a "gain" in the true sense). And at the very least 100k/yr starting. How we accepted a contract where yr 1-3 still make less than Flair is ridiculous.

How much is 2003 first year pay inflation adjusted to 2024?

About 91k

Incorrect, Y1 flat effective April 2, 2003 with no Connector Airline credit was $3751.87 per month in 2003 dollars ($5861 in 2024), Y2 was $4262.29 per month ($6660 in 2024). Contract 2023 rates exceed that for Y1 and 2 adjusted for inflation, not defending the rates but that’s straight out of the 2000-2004 contract.

Year 3 and 4 formula in the new contract are severely behind for all FO/RP positions.

[Airbusses]

Honest question. What did you guys realistically expect for wage gains?

You have to remember this new deal is almost completely costed with wage improvements.

If you don't like the wage gains, then you don't even want to hear about the complete lack of other gains.

Oh I hear you. The wages were pretty close to what I was expecting. The QOL stuff (lack there of) gave me some feelings.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I thought you guys were 98% hell bent on getting 2003 wages adjusting for inflation. Now you got less and happy with it. And suffered on QOL. All good, next time…. Right?

[Airbusses]

I thought you guys were 98% hell bent on getting 2003 wages adjusting for inflation. Now you got less and happy with it. And suffered on QOL. All good, next time…. Right?

If that was directed at me, that's not what I said.

[lownslow]

yr 1-3 still make less than Flair

Is that why they’re all leaving for Flair right now?

[altiplano]

How much is 2003 first year pay inflation adjusted to 2024?

About 91k

Incorrect, Y1 flat effective April 2, 2003 with no Connector Airline credit was $3751.87 per month in 2003 dollars ($5861 in 2024), Y2 was $4262.29 per month ($6660 in 2024). Contract 2023 rates exceed that for Y1 and 2 adjusted for inflation, not defending the rates but that’s straight out of the 2000-2004 contract.

Year 3 and 4 formula in the new contract are severely behind for all FO/RP positions.

Correct. Also the old flat pay was flat. Didn't matter how much you worked. That was the pay. You also couldn't get draft or premium. That was the pay.

Now $6561 / $7111 are the absolute minimums year 1 / 2. And only if you don't crack 75 hours. Plus paid over 75 for actual flying or MRG in a time of consistent 80+ hour months. Plus sim & training pay. Plus premiums and other overrides like draft, DOG, etc.

I'm not a supporter of the new deal, I wanted to see a different outcome, and I believe our new hires should be paid better than Flair. But year 1/2 are actually a group that have exceeded 2003 + inflation if we're going to be accurate in what our goals are.

[cdnavater]

yr 1-3 still make less than Flair

Is that why they’re all leaving for Flair right now?

Lol, I’m sure everyone of them would take the slightly lower pay, pension, benefits and job security over Flair but what do I know, maybe a mass exodus to Flair from AC in the near future

[CaptDukeNukem]

I thought you guys were 98% hell bent on getting 2003 wages adjusting for inflation. Now you got less and happy with it. And suffered on QOL. All good, next time…. Right?

If that was directed at me, that's not what I said.

It wasn’t.

[Airbusses]

I thought you guys were 98% hell bent on getting 2003 wages adjusting for inflation. Now you got less and happy with it. And suffered on QOL. All good, next time…. Right?

If that was directed at me, that's not what I said.

It wasn’t.

Errroger!

[BTD]

About 91k

Incorrect, Y1 flat effective April 2, 2003 with no Connector Airline credit was $3751.87 per month in 2003 dollars ($5861 in 2024), Y2 was $4262.29 per month ($6660 in 2024). Contract 2023 rates exceed that for Y1 and 2 adjusted for inflation, not defending the rates but that’s straight out of the 2000-2004 contract.

Year 3 and 4 formula in the new contract are severely behind for all FO/RP positions.

Correct. Also the old flat pay was flat. Didn't matter how much you worked. That was the pay. You also couldn't get draft or premium. That was the pay.

Now $6561 / $7111 are the absolute minimums year 1 / 2. And only if you don't crack 75 hours. Plus paid over 75 for actual flying or MRG in a time of consistent 80+ hour months. Plus sim & training pay. Plus premiums and other overrides like draft, DOG, etc.

I'm not a supporter of the new deal, I wanted to see a different outcome, and I believe our new hires should be paid better than Flair. But year 1/2 are actually a group that have exceeded 2003 + inflation if we're going to be accurate in what our goals are.

For the aircraft that we had on property in 2003 and still have now, top scale captain pay landed 4% short. Pretty close. Top FO for the ones I looked at are about 8% short. The rest of the scale is all whacky, so it will be tougher to judge without looking at each one, one at a time.

[altiplano]

Incorrect, Y1 flat effective April 2, 2003 with no Connector Airline credit was $3751.87 per month in 2003 dollars ($5861 in 2024), Y2 was $4262.29 per month ($6660 in 2024). Contract 2023 rates exceed that for Y1 and 2 adjusted for inflation, not defending the rates but that’s straight out of the 2000-2004 contract.

Year 3 and 4 formula in the new contract are severely behind for all FO/RP positions.

Correct. Also the old flat pay was flat. Didn't matter how much you worked. That was the pay. You also couldn't get draft or premium. That was the pay.

Now $6561 / $7111 are the absolute minimums year 1 / 2. And only if you don't crack 75 hours. Plus paid over 75 for actual flying or MRG in a time of consistent 80+ hour months. Plus sim & training pay. Plus premiums and other overrides like draft, DOG, etc.

I'm not a supporter of the new deal, I wanted to see a different outcome, and I believe our new hires should be paid better than Flair. But year 1/2 are actually a group that have exceeded 2003 + inflation if we're going to be accurate in what our goals are.

For the aircraft that we had on property in 2003 and still have now, top scale captain pay landed 4% short. Pretty close. Top FO for the ones I looked at are about 8% short. The rest of the scale is all whacky, so it will be tougher to judge without looking at each one, one at a time.

When compared to 2003 + inflation, we came in below in all steps except year 1 & 2 flat/fixed rate.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Lol...I don't think there will be AC pilots leaving for Flair unless there is a reason like they want to live at base...

But the real point is...that a Flag Carrier pays less than a ULCC. This is a point of professional pride.

Going to Air Canada should be a no Brainer moment...but it's more like "well...I guess I'll have to suck it up for xxx time or hope for an early upgrade and suck eggs on reserve"

Really sad...it doesn't have to be this way...

This MEC Chair & her cult seems OK with this. Gross

[BTD]

Correct. Also the old flat pay was flat. Didn't matter how much you worked. That was the pay. You also couldn't get draft or premium. That was the pay.

Now $6561 / $7111 are the absolute minimums year 1 / 2. And only if you don't crack 75 hours. Plus paid over 75 for actual flying or MRG in a time of consistent 80+ hour months. Plus sim & training pay. Plus premiums and other overrides like draft, DOG, etc.

I'm not a supporter of the new deal, I wanted to see a different outcome, and I believe our new hires should be paid better than Flair. But year 1/2 are actually a group that have exceeded 2003 + inflation if we're going to be accurate in what our goals are.

For the aircraft that we had on property in 2003 and still have now, top scale captain pay landed 4% short. Pretty close. Top FO for the ones I looked at are about 8% short. The rest of the scale is all whacky, so it will be tougher to judge without looking at each one, one at a time.

When compared to 2003 + inflation, we came in below in all steps except year 1 & 2 flat/fixed rate.

Indeed, I knew it was less, just meant that I didn’t have the exact figures like I did for the top captain rate.

[altiplano]

For sure. Just elaborating...

[alkaseltzer]

Lol...I don't think there will be AC pilots leaving for Flair unless there is a reason like they want to live at base...

But the real point is...that a Flag Carrier pays less than a ULCC. This is a point of professional pride.

Going to Air Canada should be a no Brainer moment...but it's more like "well...I guess I'll have to suck it up for xxx time or hope for an early upgrade and suck eggs on reserve"

Really sad...it doesn't have to be this way...

This MEC Chair & her cult seems OK with this. Gross

Go work at Flair then aka Brampton Express.

They could go belly up any moment.

Someone told me my net worth is higher than Flair as a company! Imagine that!

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Lol...I don't think there will be AC pilots leaving for Flair unless there is a reason like they want to live at base...

But the real point is...that a Flag Carrier pays less than a ULCC. This is a point of professional pride.

Going to Air Canada should be a no Brainer moment...but it's more like "well...I guess I'll have to suck it up for xxx time or hope for an early upgrade and suck eggs on reserve"

Really sad...it doesn't have to be this way...

This MEC Chair & her cult seems OK with this. Gross

Go work at Flair then aka Brampton Express.

They could go belly up any moment.

Someone told me my net worth is higher than Flair as a company! Imagine that!

This is exactly the attitude I was referencing.

Air Canada shills are shameless!

Pay less than Flair for new hires...who cares! They are just cannon fodder...but UnItY or something

[Aerkavo]

This is exactly the attitude I was referencing.

Air Canada shills are shameless!

Pay less than Flair for new hires...who cares! They are just cannon fodder...but UnItY or something

I keep waiting for someone to mention this but no-one has. I guess I'll be the one. Flair pays more than Air Canada does because they have to. What kind of moron would go to Flair if AC paid the same or more? If AC paid $100K/year flair would have to pay $120K. Obviously AC management has figured out that any rational person will look at the career potential at both companies and weigh the first couple of years of extra pay at Flair against the potentials at AC.

1.) The negotiators tried to get higher pay for new hire pilots and the company refused. They refused because they know they don't have to pay more.

Yes, I know the stated position of the new hire cohort is that the union should have sacrificed pay increases for the top end of the scale to increase the new hire pay. All I can say to that is; get hired, put in 25 years and then when a new contract is being negotiated you can be the ones to give up your pay increase for the new hires.

Furthermore, there aren't enough senior pilots to swing the vote this way by themselves. This means that it's not the greed of the senior guys driving this but rather it's the greed of the middle and lower half deciding that they want the rates to stay as they are in the TA.

[noreasterYHZ]

This is exactly the attitude I was referencing.

Air Canada shills are shameless!

Pay less than Flair for new hires...who cares! They are just cannon fodder...but UnItY or something

I keep waiting for someone to mention this but no-one has. I guess I'll be the one. Flair pays more than Air Canada does because they have to. What kind of moron would go to Flair if AC paid the same or more? If AC paid $100K/year flair would have to pay $120K. Obviously AC management has figured out that any rational person will look at the career potential at both companies and weigh the first couple of years of extra pay at Flair against the potentials at AC.

1.) The negotiators tried to get higher pay for new hire pilots and the company refused. They refused because they know they don't have to pay more.

Yes, I know the stated position of the new hire cohort is that the union should have sacrificed pay increases for the top end of the scale to increase the new hire pay. All I can say to that is; get hired, put in 25 years and then when a new contract is being negotiated you can be the ones to give up your pay increase for the new hires.

Furthermore, there aren't enough senior pilots to swing the vote this way by themselves. This means that it's not the greed of the senior guys driving this but rather it's the greed of the middle and lower half deciding that they want the rates to stay as they are in the TA.

Just how like Allegiant & UPS pays more than Delta & United!

Plus all the widebody Captains that were going to leave Air Canada if they didn't get their raise.

Just makes sense!