AC or Porter?

[propstojets]

Currently based in YYZ with Porter on the E2, very happy at the moment, and looking to move to BC for long term. If I were to bid for YVR base, I'd be sitting in the top 20-30% of that base for first officers. I am early 30's, looking to start a family in the next 3 years and undecided if I should entertain an offer from AC. My long term goals align more with AC (think 10-15 years down the road, with diversity of fleet and established airline in YVR), however I am worried about QOL and having to commute to YYZ for AC. Also, everything will take longer at AC if I want something based in YVR (QOL takes longer, and upgrades too). If I were mid twenties I would choose AC, now it's a bit more difficult of a decision. Fear of missing out is kicking hard, but also worried about sacrificing my QOL for a job... My only fear with Porter is getting bored of short haul and job security down the road. Curious to hear your takes thanks!

[noreasterYHZ]

Look at what AC pays...that should tell you what they think of you...

And what their union thinks as well...enjoy long term short call reserve...and the most unproductive contract in the world...

[goingnowherefast]

Not just pay, but QOL too.

Which airline has better work and scheduling rules? Which one better supports the lifestyle you desire?

[co-joe]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

[CaptDukeNukem]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

$170 an hour? You’re mistaken my friend.

Year 1 captain starts at $190. And soon to go up again.

[cdnavater]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

$170 an hour? You’re mistaken my friend.

Year 1 captain starts at $190. And soon to go up again.

Yah but what “efficiencies” will come with this raise?

[CaptDukeNukem]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

$170 an hour? You’re mistaken my friend.

Year 1 captain starts at $190. And soon to go up again.

Yah but what “efficiencies” will come with this raise?

Don’t know yet. It’s all just rumours until it happens. Hurry up and wait…. I guess

[pitottubey]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.

Btw Im genuinely curious about AC's pension. I sort of understand they have a program called CWIPP which is sort of like an annual payout based on your averaged income? Does it work out to about 100k to 150k per year? do they also have RRSP matching? I'm trying to understand how they're 7 times better pension so please elaborate.

[thepoors]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.

Btw Im genuinely curious about AC's pension. I sort of understand they have a program called CWIPP which is sort of like an annual payout based on your averaged income? Does it work out to about 100k to 150k per year? do they also have RRSP matching? I'm trying to understand how they're 7 times better pension so please elaborate.

CWIPP actually works out to well over 200k/yr once you retire, with the new rates (25 YOS). Also, it's a real pension not just a % RRSP match. Look up how a defined contribution pension works - that's what CWIPP is.

Not sure what math your buddy did there but there's no way career earnings are higher at Porter, even under the old contract. The simple fact that Porter doesn't respect YOS when upgrading makes that impossible. Even more so when comparing the full compensation package.

[pitottubey]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.

Btw Im genuinely curious about AC's pension. I sort of understand they have a program called CWIPP which is sort of like an annual payout based on your averaged income? Does it work out to about 100k to 150k per year? do they also have RRSP matching? I'm trying to understand how they're 7 times better pension so please elaborate.

CWIPP actually works out close to 200k/yr once you retire, with the new rates (25 YOS). Also, it's a real pension not just a % RRSP match. Look up how a defined contribution pension works - that's what CWIPP is.

Not sure what math your buddy did there but there's no way career earnings are higher at Porter, even under the old contract. The simple fact that Porter doesn't respect YOS when upgrading makes that impossible. Even more so when comparing the full compensation package.

I appreciate the info! Does AC also have RRSP matching? I read somewhere it tops out at 7 percent employee contributes and company matches 11 percent?

[thepoors]

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.

Btw Im genuinely curious about AC's pension. I sort of understand they have a program called CWIPP which is sort of like an annual payout based on your averaged income? Does it work out to about 100k to 150k per year? do they also have RRSP matching? I'm trying to understand how they're 7 times better pension so please elaborate.

CWIPP actually works out close to 200k/yr once you retire, with the new rates (25 YOS). Also, it's a real pension not just a % RRSP match. Look up how a defined contribution pension works - that's what CWIPP is.

Not sure what math your buddy did there but there's no way career earnings are higher at Porter, even under the old contract. The simple fact that Porter doesn't respect YOS when upgrading makes that impossible. Even more so when comparing the full compensation package.

I appreciate the info! Does AC also have RRSP matching? I read somewhere it tops out at 7 percent employee contributes and company matches 11 percent?

No problem. There is no RRSP match. What you're referencing there is part of CWIPP. There are changes in the new contract with the employee contribution being reduced and company portion being increased after certain YOS milestones.

There is also a stock purchase plan.

[cdnavater]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.
/quote]

I’m not sure how they even remotely came up with that!
The most current top scale Porter Captain pay that I can find, is less than the year 1(new) 220 Captain pay at AC, in order for Porter to match year 1 at AC on the 220(most comparable) they will need to increase year 1 to 274/hr, an increase of 84/hr to match. Given you move back to step 1 after upgrading, I just see how any scenario at Porter out earns AC over a career.
Not to mention your RRSP matching is not a pension and starts out low and will never catch up to that, I say your buddy made some critical errors in their calculations and Porter will have a hard time justifying this new wage!
Congratulations on your 80-90k per year increase just to match, I hope you get that, truly but I remain pessimistic at this point.
My prediction is they make a minor adjustment to Captain pay and nothing to FO or minimal at best.
New Captain scale 200/hr year 1, topping at 290/hr year 12, let’s see if I’m wrong!

[pitottubey]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.
/quote]

I’m not sure how they even remotely came up with that!
The most current top scale Porter Captain pay that I can find, is less than the year 1(new) 220 Captain pay at AC, in order for Porter to match year 1 at AC on the 220(most comparable) they will need to increase year 1 to 274/hr, an increase of 84/hr to match. Given you move back to step 1 after upgrading, I just see how any scenario at Porter out earns AC over a career.
Not to mention your RRSP matching is not a pension and starts out low and will never catch up to that, I say your buddy made some critical errors in their calculations and Porter will have a hard time justifying this new wage!
Congratulations on your 80-90k per year increase just to match, I hope you get that, truly but I remain pessimistic at this point.
My prediction is they make a minor adjustment to Captain pay and nothing to FO or minimal at best.
New Captain scale 200/hr year 1, topping at 290/hr year 12, let’s see if I’m wrong!

I think part of it was that you could upgrade to captain at porter much quicker than at AC. Anyways its all hypothetical anyways because no E2 pilot is higher than about year 3 or 4 on the pay scale. There are no year 12 E2 pilots.

And as I said before, AC just had a big pay raise which porter will respond to imminently so don't compare the AC new pay scales to porter's current. This calculation was based on AC old payscale.

[pitottubey]

If someone wants to see the calculations my colleague did I can send it to them.

[thepoors]

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.
/quote]

I’m not sure how they even remotely came up with that!
The most current top scale Porter Captain pay that I can find, is less than the year 1(new) 220 Captain pay at AC, in order for Porter to match year 1 at AC on the 220(most comparable) they will need to increase year 1 to 274/hr, an increase of 84/hr to match. Given you move back to step 1 after upgrading, I just see how any scenario at Porter out earns AC over a career.
Not to mention your RRSP matching is not a pension and starts out low and will never catch up to that, I say your buddy made some critical errors in their calculations and Porter will have a hard time justifying this new wage!
Congratulations on your 80-90k per year increase just to match, I hope you get that, truly but I remain pessimistic at this point.
My prediction is they make a minor adjustment to Captain pay and nothing to FO or minimal at best.
New Captain scale 200/hr year 1, topping at 290/hr year 12, let’s see if I’m wrong!

I think part of it was that you could upgrade to captain at porter much quicker than at AC. Anyways its all hypothetical anyways because no E2 pilot is higher than about year 3 or 4 on the pay scale. There are no year 12 E2 pilots.

And as I said before, AC just had a big pay raise which porter will respond to imminently so don't compare the AC new pay scales to porter's current. This calculation was based on AC old payscale.

In the past year there are guys holding left seat on the 220 with 8mos on property. Unless he's only looking at DEC for Porter, upgrades are comparable atm.

[pitottubey]

I think part of it was that you could upgrade to captain at porter much quicker than at AC. Anyways its all hypothetical anyways because no E2 pilot is higher than about year 3 or 4 on the pay scale. There are no year 12 E2 pilots.

And as I said before, AC just had a big pay raise which porter will respond to imminently so don't compare the AC new pay scales to porter's current. This calculation was based on AC old payscale.

In the past year there are guys holding left seat on the 220 with 8mos on property. Unless he's only looking at DEC for Porter, upgrades are comparable atm.

I've yet to hear it being that quick at AC, at shortest 2 years but thats just what I've heard. And that will likely get longer as hiring slows down.

[flying4dollars]

In the past year there are guys holding left seat on the 220 with 8mos on property. Unless he's only looking at DEC for Porter, upgrades are comparable atm.

I've yet to hear it being that quick at AC, at shortest 2 years but thats just what I've heard. And that will likely get longer as hiring slows down.

8 months is correct. I could have held 220CA after 8 months but withdrew in favor of going right to left on my current type which I was awarded after about 14 months on the property. One guy in my PIT was already on the 220 and he took the upgrade and was trained and line checked within 1 year on the property. But correct, this will not last. The next bid should be very dynamic with lots of movement, I suspect. Beyond that I feel like CA positions will be filled quickly and the upgrades will take longer.

Either way, if your long term goals include widebody, cargo or NRFO (non rev - repo, delivery and test flights) then you'll only get that at AC. If you don't care about the fleet variety and appreciate QoL, decent pay and your employer's respect, then staying at Porter is the right move. Best of luck to you!

[pitottubey]

In the past year there are guys holding left seat on the 220 with 8mos on property. Unless he's only looking at DEC for Porter, upgrades are comparable atm.

I've yet to hear it being that quick at AC, at shortest 2 years but thats just what I've heard. And that will likely get longer as hiring slows down.

8 months is correct. I could have held 220CA after 8 months but withdrew in favor of going right to left on my current type which I was awarded after about 14 months on the property. One guy in my PIT was already on the 220 and he took the upgrade and was trained and line checked within 1 year on the property. But correct, this will not last. The next bid should be very dynamic with lots of movement, I suspect. Beyond that I feel like CA positions will be filled quickly and the upgrades will take longer.

Either way, if your long term goals include widebody, cargo or NRFO (non rev - repo, delivery and test flights) then you'll only get that at AC. If you don't care about the fleet variety and appreciate QoL, decent pay and your employer's respect, then staying at Porter is the right move. Best of luck to you!

I stand corrected! Thank you for the info. But gosh I'd hate to see what my QOL would be like upgrading after 8 months I definitely appreciate QOL, decent pay and employers respect. Very tempting to stay what you put it that way...

[flying4dollars]

I've yet to hear it being that quick at AC, at shortest 2 years but thats just what I've heard. And that will likely get longer as hiring slows down.

8 months is correct. I could have held 220CA after 8 months but withdrew in favor of going right to left on my current type which I was awarded after about 14 months on the property. One guy in my PIT was already on the 220 and he took the upgrade and was trained and line checked within 1 year on the property. But correct, this will not last. The next bid should be very dynamic with lots of movement, I suspect. Beyond that I feel like CA positions will be filled quickly and the upgrades will take longer.

Either way, if your long term goals include widebody, cargo or NRFO (non rev - repo, delivery and test flights) then you'll only get that at AC. If you don't care about the fleet variety and appreciate QoL, decent pay and your employer's respect, then staying at Porter is the right move. Best of luck to you!

I stand corrected! Thank you for the info. But gosh I'd hate to see what my QOL would be like upgrading after 8 months I definitely appreciate QOL, decent pay and employers respect. Very tempting to stay what you put it that way...

Honestly I'm dreading it only because I'll be 10th from the bottom and commuting to YYZ . But it will be short term and I'll be back at home soon. Bottom reserve when you're based where you live is really not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. But I base that statement on the fact that I'm single with no kids. Don't get me wrong, I'm not unhappy here at all. I worked for a really great employer prior to coming here and I'm still glad I made the move.

[Hysteria]

At the moment, PD is back to being the lowest paying major airline in Canada. 170 an hour for a jet Captain? They need to seriously step up their wages or I'd just go to AC. You 'll get a YVR base there within 2 years (if not day 1), and the long game pay wise is so much better, the pension is something like 7 times better than PD.

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.

Btw Im genuinely curious about AC's pension. I sort of understand they have a program called CWIPP which is sort of like an annual payout based on your averaged income? Does it work out to about 100k to 150k per year? do they also have RRSP matching? I'm trying to understand how they're 7 times better pension so please elaborate.

CWIPP actually works out to well over 200k/yr once you retire, with the new rates (25 YOS). Also, it's a real pension not just a % RRSP match. Look up how a defined contribution pension works - that's what CWIPP is.

Not sure what math your buddy did there but there's no way career earnings are higher at Porter, even under the old contract. The simple fact that Porter doesn't respect YOS when upgrading makes that impossible. Even more so when comparing the full compensation package.

Interesting. Do you know if WJ has a pension like AC yet?

[thepoors]

porter is about to respond to AC's new contract, so currently not a fair comparison. Look at their pay in 1 month from now after the new contract. Like another said its currently 190 per hour year one (170,000 a year) but again thats about to change. Prior to AC's new contract, I believe career earnings at porter were actually higher (I had a colleague make an excel spreadsheet of career pay at AC (WB and NB) vs porter and porter won.

Btw Im genuinely curious about AC's pension. I sort of understand they have a program called CWIPP which is sort of like an annual payout based on your averaged income? Does it work out to about 100k to 150k per year? do they also have RRSP matching? I'm trying to understand how they're 7 times better pension so please elaborate.

CWIPP actually works out to well over 200k/yr once you retire, with the new rates (25 YOS). Also, it's a real pension not just a % RRSP match. Look up how a defined contribution pension works - that's what CWIPP is.

Not sure what math your buddy did there but there's no way career earnings are higher at Porter, even under the old contract. The simple fact that Porter doesn't respect YOS when upgrading makes that impossible. Even more so when comparing the full compensation package.

Interesting. Do you know if WJ has a pension like AC yet?

I believe WJ still has a defined benefit pension, like AC used to before they moved to CWIPP. There are many at AC still grandfathered on the db plan. Db plans are generally considered the gold standard for pensions vs dc. But there are advantages/disadvantages to both.

[lostav8r]

CWIPP actually works out to well over 200k/yr once you retire, with the new rates (25 YOS). Also, it's a real pension not just a % RRSP match. Look up how a defined contribution pension works - that's what CWIPP is.

Not sure what math your buddy did there but there's no way career earnings are higher at Porter, even under the old contract. The simple fact that Porter doesn't respect YOS when upgrading makes that impossible. Even more so when comparing the full compensation package.

Interesting. Do you know if WJ has a pension like AC yet?

I believe WJ still has a defined benefit pension, like AC used to before they moved to CWIPP. There are many at AC still grandfathered on the db plan. Db plans are generally considered the gold standard for pensions vs dc. But there are advantages/disadvantages to both.

I thought WS was a very healthy 20% RRSP match but OTOH that's a giant amount of your take home to leave to the government for 30 years from now

[thepoors]

Interesting. Do you know if WJ has a pension like AC yet?

I believe WJ still has a defined benefit pension, like AC used to before they moved to CWIPP. There are many at AC still grandfathered on the db plan. Db plans are generally considered the gold standard for pensions vs dc. But there are advantages/disadvantages to both.

I thought WS was a very healthy 20% RRSP match but OTOH that's a giant amount of your take home to leave to the government for 30 years from now

You are likely correct, I don't know much about the WJ package.

[fish4life]

WJ has the CAAT DB plan starting in a few months

[flyinhigh]

As a current Porter DEC from when we launched the program I can say with certainty that the Porter earning are NOT nearly what AC's is UNLESS he built out his spread sheet based on the average of the credits per month that he is working vs. MMG at AC.

There is zero QOL at Porter (I had 5 scheduled days off from Sept 20 to Oct 15th, yes you read that right and I bid at 49%). Unfortunately the Porter pilot is a cog in the Deluce wheel and they are purely throwing money at the pilot group (classic Deluce move), and each time bring in concessions. Lots of pilots are happy with working obscene amounts for the 260K T4, but they do not have any days at home with family. Whats the point in making all that money when you live at work. I would happily, work for current pay and less days work and defined work rules with no ambiguity oppose to a base salary of 250K.

Any 30 something guy, if offered a AC spot I would pull shoot quick and go without hesitation. All earnings at Air Can FAR exceed what you will make at POE and once you have abit of seniority your QOL will be far superior than Porter.