67% yes

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

This is exactly the attitude I was referencing.

Air Canada shills are shameless!

Pay less than Flair for new hires...who cares! They are just cannon fodder...but UnItY or something

I keep waiting for someone to mention this but no-one has. I guess I'll be the one. Flair pays more than Air Canada does because they have to. What kind of moron would go to Flair if AC paid the same or more? If AC paid $100K/year flair would have to pay $120K. Obviously AC management has figured out that any rational person will look at the career potential at both companies and weigh the first couple of years of extra pay at Flair against the potentials at AC.

1.) The negotiators tried to get higher pay for new hire pilots and the company refused. They refused because they know they don't have to pay more.

Yes, I know the stated position of the new hire cohort is that the union should have sacrificed pay increases for the top end of the scale to increase the new hire pay. All I can say to that is; get hired, put in 25 years and then when a new contract is being negotiated you can be the ones to give up your pay increase for the new hires.

Furthermore, there aren't enough senior pilots to swing the vote this way by themselves. This means that it's not the greed of the senior guys driving this but rather it's the greed of the middle and lower half deciding that they want the rates to stay as they are in the TA.

Just how like Allegiant & UPS pays more than Delta & United!

Plus all the widebody Captains that were going to leave Air Canada if they didn't get their raise.

Just makes sense!

Don't argue sense against Air Canada pilot excuses for the inexcusable

[thepoors]

I keep waiting for someone to mention this but no-one has. I guess I'll be the one. Flair pays more than Air Canada does because they have to. What kind of moron would go to Flair if AC paid the same or more? If AC paid $100K/year flair would have to pay $120K. Obviously AC management has figured out that any rational person will look at the career potential at both companies and weigh the first couple of years of extra pay at Flair against the potentials at AC.

That's called playing to the lowest denominator - instead of showing your employees (and potential candidates) you value them and their labour. I'm sure this won't have any repercussions down the line as hiring minimums and experience continue to drop to attract anyone to AC...

[rudder]

I keep waiting for someone to mention this but no-one has. I guess I'll be the one. Flair pays more than Air Canada does because they have to. What kind of moron would go to Flair if AC paid the same or more? If AC paid $100K/year flair would have to pay $120K. Obviously AC management has figured out that any rational person will look at the career potential at both companies and weigh the first couple of years of extra pay at Flair against the potentials at AC.

That's called playing to the lowest denominator - instead of showing your employees (and potential candidates) you value them and their labour. I'm sure this won't have any repercussions down the line as hiring minimums and experience continue to drop to attract anyone to AC...

The issue isn’t whether AC will be able to attract applicants. I am not aware (at least over the last 50 years of hiring) that AC has ever had a problem filling seats, although historically there have even been times that non-ATPL pilots were hired (1973-1974). And even beyond that, there were pilots that had no commercial experience other than a 152 instructor (1979).

The issue is whether AC is attracting the most qualified applicants. My guess - and it is just a guess - is it is not.

The most qualified applicant is a current Part 705 CA with experience in large aircraft. It is always going to be a challenge to get a pilot to quit a $200k/yr job for a lower paying job. Proposing that choice with a delta in 4 year pay aggregate (4 x $200k vs AC year 1-4 NB FO) makes that choice much harder to justify (or explain to a spouse). Yes, there will be some exceptions (NB CA within 4 years) but that train will eventually leave the station and is NOT available to every new-hire at AC.

The parties made choices. They identified priorities. And they both allocated and agreed accordingly.

PIT seats will all be full. Whether Contract 2023 meets the staffing and experience needs of the operation over the next 3+ years will not be known for several bids.

[stall]

PIT classes might be full...but full with what?

[Daigo]

PIT seats will all be full. Whether Contract 2023 meets the staffing and experience needs of the operation over the next 3+ years will not be known for several bids.

This is totally false. They've been struggling hard this year to attract candidates and have been giving out job offeres less than 10 days from interview. Several PIT classes have been canceled to join other classes and the numbers have been very low. Latest PIT was only 12 people!

[A310Heavy]

Lol...you think Delta/American/United pattern bargains off Spirit/Allegiant/JetBlue

AC pilots are brutal at negotiating

[yycflyguy]

PIT classes might be full...but full with what?

Oh, they’re full of it…

[Texarcana]

Furthermore, there aren't enough senior pilots to swing the vote this way by themselves. This means that it's not the greed of the senior guys driving this but rather it's the greed of the middle and lower half deciding that they want the rates to stay as they are in the TA.

You are 100% correct, not that you need a math degree to solve this one.

It’s the 8.4 thing
It’s always been the 8.4 thing.

It’s the 8.4 thing this time as well
It’s 8.4 of every 10 AC Pilots

Junior, mid seniority and senior
8.4 of every 10

It’s the entire membership effectively
Well, other than me and a handful of others
It’s always been that way
I doubt it will ever change.

And just in case you still don’t get it;
Pay won over most (I suspect just as the surveys directed) and the YOS piece sealed the deal (that’s the almost most Junior, for those that don’t know).

This shit is a no brainer for the company.

And, finally,.. if you are one of those idiots blaming our woes on me, please stop being an idiot.

[flying4dollars]

And, finally,.. if you are one of those idiots blaming our woes on me, please stop being an idiot.

It's all your fault tex!!!!!!!!

[737Drver]

Air Canada pilots are cheap pilots!

[Aerkavo]

It’s the 8.4 thing
It’s always been the 8.4 thing.

It’s the 8.4 thing this time as well
It’s 8.4 of every 10 AC Pilots

Junior, mid seniority and senior
8.4 of every 10

It’s the entire membership effectively
Well, other than me and a handful of others
It’s always been that way
I doubt it will ever change.

And just in case you still don’t get it;
Pay won over most (I suspect just as the surveys directed) and the YOS piece sealed the deal (that’s the almost most Junior, for those that don’t know).

This shit is a no brainer for the company.

What is this "8.4 thing"? Am I missing some cultural reference or it something in statistics? A movie quote? What?

Regarding your comment about the company finding the magic formula to get the TA to pass - of course they did but such a thing is always possible. Wouldn't matter if it was a group of pilots, teachers or dock workers - you divide the group into subsets, figure out what each subset wants and tweak the offer enough to get it to pass. There's no mystery to this nor is there anything special about pilots that makes them more susceptible.

[Texarcana]

I thought it was pretty clear.

[braaap Braap]

I also dont know what is meant by 8.4

[Bede]

I thought it was pretty clear.

If you're the only one who thought it was clear...

I don't understand either.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yea 8.4 times out of 10 I’m wrong. Not sure what the 8.4 means otherwise

[digits_]

Yea 8.4 times out of 10 I’m wrong. Not sure what the 8.4 means otherwise

I'd give that statement a perfect 5/7

[Tbayer2021]

Yea 8.4 times out of 10 I’m wrong. Not sure what the 8.4 means otherwise

I'd give that statement a perfect 5/7

Some solid internet/meme lore right here

[Texarcana]

Yea 8.4 times out of 10 I’m wrong. Not sure what the 8.4 means otherwise

So close
But no

Jokes not on me
Jokes on 8.4 out of every 10 AC pilots
Certainly since 1995

One thing about AC pilots
They’re consistent, if nothing else.

[GeoffPilot]

84% voted yes to a 10 yrs deal to cement us in the bottom of legacy carriers...(8.4 out of 10)

Then we brought in all mighty ALPA

Then we buckled with a historic opportunity

Then we went back to hunting down cellphone deals

I guess we will get em next time?

[oakmoss1889]

I keep waiting for someone to mention this but no-one has. I guess I'll be the one. Flair pays more than Air Canada does because they have to. What kind of moron would go to Flair if AC paid the same or more? If AC paid $100K/year flair would have to pay $120K. Obviously AC management has figured out that any rational person will look at the career potential at both companies and weigh the first couple of years of extra pay at Flair against the potentials at AC.

That's called playing to the lowest denominator - instead of showing your employees (and potential candidates) you value them and their labour. I'm sure this won't have any repercussions down the line as hiring minimums and experience continue to drop to attract anyone to AC...

The issue isn’t whether AC will be able to attract applicants. I am not aware (at least over the last 50 years of hiring) that AC has ever had a problem filling seats, although historically there have even been times that non-ATPL pilots were hired (1973-1974). And even beyond that, there were pilots that had no commercial experience other than a 152 instructor (1979).

The issue is whether AC is attracting the most qualified applicants. My guess - and it is just a guess - is it is not.

The most qualified applicant is a current Part 705 CA with experience in large aircraft. It is always going to be a challenge to get a pilot to quit a $200k/yr job for a lower paying job. Proposing that choice with a delta in 4 year pay aggregate (4 x $200k vs AC year 1-4 NB FO) makes that choice much harder to justify (or explain to a spouse). Yes, there will be some exceptions (NB CA within 4 years) but that train will eventually leave the station and is NOT available to every new-hire at AC.

The parties made choices. They identified priorities. And they both allocated and agreed accordingly.

PIT seats will all be full. Whether Contract 2023 meets the staffing and experience needs of the operation over the next 3+ years will not be known for several bids.

Oct 2nd course had just 8 pilots so it was cancelled. Got rolled into the oct 21st class for a grand total of 20 pilots....

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yea 8.4 times out of 10 I’m wrong. Not sure what the 8.4 means otherwise

So close
But no

Jokes not on me
Jokes on 8.4 out of every 10 AC pilots
Certainly since 1995

One thing about AC pilots
They’re consistent, if nothing else.

lol. I get it now. Shocking statistic frankly

[rudder]

That's called playing to the lowest denominator - instead of showing your employees (and potential candidates) you value them and their labour. I'm sure this won't have any repercussions down the line as hiring minimums and experience continue to drop to attract anyone to AC...

The issue isn’t whether AC will be able to attract applicants. I am not aware (at least over the last 50 years of hiring) that AC has ever had a problem filling seats, although historically there have even been times that non-ATPL pilots were hired (1973-1974). And even beyond that, there were pilots that had no commercial experience other than a 152 instructor (1979).

The issue is whether AC is attracting the most qualified applicants. My guess - and it is just a guess - is it is not.

The most qualified applicant is a current Part 705 CA with experience in large aircraft. It is always going to be a challenge to get a pilot to quit a $200k/yr job for a lower paying job. Proposing that choice with a delta in 4 year pay aggregate (4 x $200k vs AC year 1-4 NB FO) makes that choice much harder to justify (or explain to a spouse). Yes, there will be some exceptions (NB CA within 4 years) but that train will eventually leave the station and is NOT available to every new-hire at AC.

The parties made choices. They identified priorities. And they both allocated and agreed accordingly.

PIT seats will all be full. Whether Contract 2023 meets the staffing and experience needs of the operation over the next 3+ years will not be known for several bids.

Oct 2nd course had just 8 pilots so it was cancelled. Got rolled into the oct 21st class for a grand total of 20 pilots....

Are you suggesting that there are just a grand total of 20 pilots in the AC hiring pool?

[JoeyBarton]

Of course not Rudder.
Just a training bottleneck to be resolved. Lots of internal movements to come as well as the 737 will go to rouge and all 320s back to mainline.
The fleet outlook shows growth for the next 2-3 years.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Of course not Rudder.
Just a training bottleneck to be resolved. Lots of internal movements to come as well as the 737 will go to rouge and all 320s back to mainline.
The fleet outlook shows growth for the next 2-3 years.

Lol..."training bottleneck"... as they cancel courses...

[BrassCraft]

Pussy’s. 67% need to be taught a lesson.

Maybe they should deny you the JS.

Edit by Sulako : threatening other posters means a nice little mini-vacation from the forum. Play nice, please.