WJ Merger Committee should he ashamed

[AngryWJPilot]

- Imagine being a 9 year WJ FO in YYZ who has been waiting patiently for an upgrade, and now you have to fly with a junior Sunwing Captain who was only hired in 2022? Imagine finding out he also getting paid as a Westjet Captain? Seems fair right?

- Imagine finding out that guy who ended up at Sunwing, AFTER HE WAS FIRED from your initial WJ course 10 years ago, will now be a Captain at Westjet and sit 250 names above you on the seniority list?

Need I say more?

Some Sunwing pilots are seeing a seniority boost by almost 4 years above Westjet Pilots. For example, a Sunwing pilot hired in 2011 will sit above a Westjet pilot hired in 2007.

This is absolute garbage.

The WJ merger committee tried to play fair and nice, and it wrecked us.

All of them, and any ALPA reps that agreed with their position need to be recalled immediately.

[‘Bob’]

Doesn’t a SW pilot also see a reduction in seniority as more WS pilots are folded in above him as well?

A SW pilot took a huge risk by working for any Canadian tour operator (historically the hardest hit in Canadian aviation) for better lifestyle and advancement

I think the question you should ask yourself is why you didn’t do the same thing? Tons of your compadres jumped ship to other operators and tons more pilots never even applied. Staying at WS was the low risk option and with that comes low reward.

[truecolours]

Doesn’t a SW pilot also see a reduction in seniority as more WS pilots are folded in above him as well?

A SW pilot took a huge risk by working for any Canadian tour operator (historically the hardest hit in Canadian aviation) for better lifestyle and advancement

I think the question you should ask yourself is why you didn’t do the same thing? Tons of your compadres jumped ship to other operators and tons more pilots never even applied. Staying at WS was the low risk option and with that comes low reward.

So we are supposed to reward people for taking risks in this industry? I guess when Flair fails we should expect their #1 to be a 787 captain because they took a risk and went to work for a company being funded by a drug smuggling cartel based in Miami?

[rookiepilot]

the low risk option and with that comes low reward.

That’s how it’s supposed to work as a principle, but people want it both ways.

[‘Bob’]

Doesn’t a SW pilot also see a reduction in seniority as more WS pilots are folded in above him as well?

A SW pilot took a huge risk by working for any Canadian tour operator (historically the hardest hit in Canadian aviation) for better lifestyle and advancement

I think the question you should ask yourself is why you didn’t do the same thing? Tons of your compadres jumped ship to other operators and tons more pilots never even applied. Staying at WS was the low risk option and with that comes low reward.

So we are supposed to reward people for taking risks in this industry? I guess when Flair fails we should expect their #1 to be a 787 captain because they took a risk and went to work for a company being funded by a drug smuggling cartel based in Miami?

High risk works both ways. That’s why it’s called high risk.

The Flair situation isn’t comparable. SW was bought to be operated and that comes with the crew. If SW pilots were demoted or sent BOTL likely they all would depart leaving WS with even more planes it can’t fly.

Great for WS pilot’s seniority and advancement—that is until the company starts laying off and cutting services to keep afloat.

[Me262]

Why is this in General Comments and not where it belongs, in the Westjet subforum?

[digits_]

- Imagine being a 9 year WJ FO in YYZ who has been waiting patiently for an upgrade, and now you have to fly with a junior Sunwing Captain who was only hired in 2022? Imagine finding out he also getting paid as a Westjet Captain? Seems fair right?

You mean that you think it's weird that the new colleague that has actual captain experience gets offered the captain job before the FO?

Do you think there's any way this merger could have gone where you wouldn't be able to find any perceived unfair examples?

WJ obviously saw value in the SW company and pilots, otherwise they wouldn't have wanted to merge.

- Imagine finding out that guy who ended up at Sunwing, AFTER HE WAS FIRED from your initial WJ course 10 years ago, will now be a Captain at Westjet and sit 250 names above you on the seniority list?

Oh no, a fellow pilot improved his skills and experience in 10 years time and due to a stroke of luck he's now slightly ahead of some WJ pilots. That same WJ who kicked him out. What's he supposed to do? Not apply to any airline that could have potentially merged with WJ? Be forever deemed inferior to every WJ pilot because he failed a course at some point in his career?

[MaxAuto]

This was fair. The only guys losing in this are the top 50 or so pilots on the Sunwing list who had the best schedules and QOL in the industry. It's not UNIFORs fault or ALPAs fault. It was simply a business deal between to companies and the arbitrator prevented a larger labor group from clobbering a smaller labor group.

If you're a middle of the pack WJ FO, you'll still be next in line for upgrade. A good chunk of the SW pilots pilots are BOTL IAW date of hire anyway. It's all relative with the additional planes coming over and the amount of new flying that WJ is already experiencing from providing wet least flying for SW not only this year, but also last year. A tone of SW pilots sat reserved while we watched several WJ flights departing everyday carrying Sunwing vacation passengers. We lost big financially last year. But we didn't blame WJ pilots, we blamed our management.

WestJet MECs email to its pilots was inappropriate. The letters CRM should not have been in that same email. "Frosty"

I'm very grateful!!

When's the next election!?!?

[Tony Soprano]

I got a buddy at WJ. He has some SWG guy gain 3 years on him. Another buddy saw someone gain a year.
I have another buddy who's dad was at Alaska before he retired. He saw some Virgin guy gain 7 years on him. Some gained 8.

That happens in every merger. EVERY ONE. Canadian North gained 3 years ACROSS THE BOARD.

Looks like the WJ guys did alright on the seniority list. (Although the Sunwing guys one the lottery with job security. They should be damn happy they have job.)

[Tony Soprano]

- Imagine being a 9 year WJ FO in YYZ who has been waiting patiently for an upgrade, and now you have to fly with a junior Sunwing Captain who was only hired in 2022? Imagine finding out he also getting paid as a Westjet Captain? Seems fair right?

- Imagine finding out that guy who ended up at Sunwing, AFTER HE WAS FIRED from your initial WJ course 10 years ago, will now be a Captain at Westjet and sit 250 names above you on the seniority list?

Need I say more?

Some Sunwing pilots are seeing a seniority boost by almost 4 years above Westjet Pilots. For example, a Sunwing pilot hired in 2011 will sit above a Westjet pilot hired in 2007.

This is absolute garbage.

The WJ merger committee tried to play fair and nice, and it wrecked us.

All of them, and any ALPA reps that agreed with their position need to be recalled immediately.

Imagine you merge with Transat. We'll do a ratio of WB pilots with your WB pilots and then ratio the narrow body's. Or should we do it date of hire?

[Canpilot7]

- Imagine being a 9 year WJ FO in YYZ who has been waiting patiently for an upgrade, and now you have to fly with a junior Sunwing Captain who was only hired in 2022? Imagine finding out he also getting paid as a Westjet Captain? Seems fair right?

- Imagine finding out that guy who ended up at Sunwing, AFTER HE WAS FIRED from your initial WJ course 10 years ago, will now be a Captain at Westjet and sit 250 names above you on the seniority list?

Need I say more?

Some Sunwing pilots are seeing a seniority boost by almost 4 years above Westjet Pilots. For example, a Sunwing pilot hired in 2011 will sit above a Westjet pilot hired in 2007.

This is absolute garbage.

The WJ merger committee tried to play fair and nice, and it wrecked us.

All of them, and any ALPA reps that agreed with their position need to be recalled immediately.

The upgrade times for the WestJet pilots will be decreasing, not increasing. If that 9 year pilot signed up for a company with a long upgrade, they just won by having that timeline shrink.

[Canadaflyer46]

- Imagine being a 9 year WJ FO in YYZ who has been waiting patiently for an upgrade, and now you have to fly with a junior Sunwing Captain who was only hired in 2022? Imagine finding out he also getting paid as a Westjet Captain? Seems fair right?

- Imagine finding out that guy who ended up at Sunwing, AFTER HE WAS FIRED from your initial WJ course 10 years ago, will now be a Captain at Westjet and sit 250 names above you on the seniority list?

Need I say more?

Some Sunwing pilots are seeing a seniority boost by almost 4 years above Westjet Pilots. For example, a Sunwing pilot hired in 2011 will sit above a Westjet pilot hired in 2007.

This is absolute garbage.

The WJ merger committee tried to play fair and nice, and it wrecked us.

All of them, and any ALPA reps that agreed with their position need to be recalled immediately.

The upgrade times for the WestJet pilots will be decreasing, not increasing. If that 9 year pilot signed up for a company with a long upgrade, they just won by having that timeline shrink.

I don’t see how. Sunwing is bringing over way more captains than we have flying for. Along with minimal growth and no aircraft orders arriving anytime soon (and still with the Max10 on order which will never exist, we could convert all those orders to -8s but why be proactive), a shrinking widebody program and no retirement age at WJ which will mean more and more pilots staying past 65.
The 11 year upgrade for current pilots will easily be 15-20 years for a new hire.

[eyebrow737]

- Imagine being a 9 year WJ FO in YYZ who has been waiting patiently for an upgrade, and now you have to fly with a junior Sunwing Captain who was only hired in 2022? Imagine finding out he also getting paid as a Westjet Captain? Seems fair right?

- Imagine finding out that guy who ended up at Sunwing, AFTER HE WAS FIRED from your initial WJ course 10 years ago, will now be a Captain at Westjet and sit 250 names above you on the seniority list?

Need I say more?

Some Sunwing pilots are seeing a seniority boost by almost 4 years above Westjet Pilots. For example, a Sunwing pilot hired in 2011 will sit above a Westjet pilot hired in 2007.

This is absolute garbage.

The WJ merger committee tried to play fair and nice, and it wrecked us.

All of them, and any ALPA reps that agreed with their position need to be recalled immediately.

The upgrade times for the WestJet pilots will be decreasing, not increasing. If that 9 year pilot signed up for a company with a long upgrade, they just won by having that timeline shrink.

I don’t see how. Sunwing is bringing over way more captains than we have flying for. Along with minimal growth and no aircraft orders arriving anytime soon (and still with the Max10 on order which will never exist, we could convert all those orders to -8s but why be proactive), a shrinking widebody program and no retirement age at WJ which will mean more and more pilots staying past 65.
The 11 year upgrade for current pilots will easily be 15-20 years for a new hire.

They should then try to come here to AC. Upgrade times can be measure in months with the right experience.

20 years is absurd. Blame your company, the industry and Canadian aviation, not each other. Not going to help anyone

[tik1]

- Imagine being a 9 year WJ FO in YYZ who has been waiting patiently for an upgrade, and now you have to fly with a junior Sunwing Captain who was only hired in 2022? Imagine finding out he also getting paid as a Westjet Captain? Seems fair right?

- Imagine finding out that guy who ended up at Sunwing, AFTER HE WAS FIRED from your initial WJ course 10 years ago, will now be a Captain at Westjet and sit 250 names above you on the seniority list?

Need I say more?

Some Sunwing pilots are seeing a seniority boost by almost 4 years above Westjet Pilots. For example, a Sunwing pilot hired in 2011 will sit above a Westjet pilot hired in 2007.

This is absolute garbage.

The WJ merger committee tried to play fair and nice, and it wrecked us.

All of them, and any ALPA reps that agreed with their position need to be recalled immediately.

The upgrade times for the WestJet pilots will be decreasing, not increasing. If that 9 year pilot signed up for a company with a long upgrade, they just won by having that timeline shrink.

I don’t see how. Sunwing is bringing over way more captains than we have flying for. Along with minimal growth and no aircraft orders arriving anytime soon (and still with the Max10 on order which will never exist, we could convert all those orders to -8s but why be proactive), a shrinking widebody program and no retirement age at WJ which will mean more and more pilots staying past 65.
The 11 year upgrade for current pilots will easily be 15-20 years for a new hire.

SWG is bringing over the entire tour package operation. That's where the biggest growth potential is. SWG has a baseline ~40 winter planes. With WJ having more summer work than SWG, the tour side isn't constrained to 40 in the winter anymore. We have the numbers to run 787 to the sun destinations, but frequency was more important.

The potential is big for everyone. SWG has a lock on all-inclusive packages AND we're not just in Canada. We've got a whole vacation division in US. Somewhere on the internet, the SWG group is $3 billion in revenue.

AC has clearly won the business crowd. We dominate the tour package all-inclusive crowd.

[BigQ]

How many at WS are hitting 65 between here and 2030?

[Canadaflyer46]

How many at WS are hitting 65 between here and 2030?

That's a great question. Many people I speak to plan on staying past 65. Currently the Age Restricted pilots can bid for reserve and sit at home without being used, as most pairings have an international flight in them at some point. It's a great loophole and I don't blame people at all for not retiring, particularly when WJ has no retiree plans for health/dental/travel.
So in short, impossible to plan on anyone retiring and so the number of upgrades may well decrease year over year unless WJ decides to end the AR program and stop kicking the can down the road (or upgrades might pick up if we ever have any growth, which seems a pipe dream). It is going to start costing them a lot of money. The fuel burn on a YYZ YHZ is significantly more with the 45 degree dogleg around Maine.

[‘Bob’]

How can you bid reserve if you aren't able to be used on most pairings? And if you can be on reserve just for pairings that don't involve international travel, why can't you bit blocks that are the same?

[Canadaflyer46]

How can you bid reserve if you aren't able to be used on most pairings? And if you can be on reserve just for pairings that don't involve international travel, why can't you bit blocks that are the same?

I agree, it's ludicrous. And every year as more age 65+ people join the program it'll just get more and more farcical. They are provided with domestic only pairings, but can bid for reserve if they want to within the monthly bid. Those that do manage to secure a reserve block can obviously only be called in to cover domestic flying. I was amazed to discover that this loophole exists.

[MaxAuto]

Is there a push to end the AR program by the union? How did this come about in the first place? What has management said regarding this program?

Is this something that can be addressed in CA3?

[co-joe]

Is there a push to end the AR program by the union? How did this come about in the first place? What has management said regarding this program?

Is this something that can be addressed in CA3?

Flair had no retirement date till the last CBA and ALPA agreed to grandfather anyone hired before a certain date, anyone after has a 65 madatory retirement date, so it's certainly possible for WS to go this route on the next CBA or an LOU.

Somebody always loses in mergers. I know AC pilots who lost 10 years of seniority with the CAI merger. They sat in the right seat for an extra decade and watched new additions upgrade ahead of them. It's not fair, it just is.

[5x5]

It's not fair, it just is.

What?!??! You mean being an airline pilot isn’t better than the rest of the world?

[dontcallmeshirley]

I got a buddy at WJ. He has some SWG guy gain 3 years on him. Another buddy saw someone gain a year.
I have another buddy who's dad was at Alaska before he retired. He saw some Virgin guy gain 7 years on him. Some gained 8.

That happens in every merger. EVERY ONE. Canadian North gained 3 years ACROSS THE BOARD.

Looks like the WJ guys did alright on the seniority list. (Although the Sunwing guys one the lottery with job security. They should be damn happy they have job.)

DOH seniority with a position freeze. You keep your current position unless you choose to bid for something else.

Everyone is happy and everyone is unhappy, but nobody questions whether someone else deserves to be in the slot that they land.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Where’s the popcorn emoji when you need it.

[Meatservo]

- Imagine being an FO and you have to fly with a Captain? Seems fair right?

Once you edit the whining out, it’s easier to read.

[Handover]

- Imagine being a 9 year WJ FO in YYZ who has been waiting patiently for an upgrade, and now you have to fly with a junior Sunwing Captain who was only hired in 2022? Imagine finding out he also getting paid as a Westjet Captain? Seems fair right?

Imagine being a widebody captain in the sandpit,.coming back to.canada because your wife wants to be with her family, getting a job at an airline that has relatively quick upgrades, then being sold to an other airlines and now your upgrade will take 12.years and your experience is worthless., sitting next to your supervisor who is 20 years younger with a fifth of your time and this is their first jet.

Seems fair right? Welcome to aviation bud.