Sunwing/Westjet

[frog]

A good question is :
Where in WJ payscale will SWG pilots be ?

[mijbil]

Hey I am 100% in agreement that our SOPS our outdated and desperately need an overhaul. Most of it dates back the Classic and bush league philosophy from the founding fathers. Personally I’m excited that the merger will bring about a modernization of our SOPs finally.
My point was that complaining about new SOPs while many Sunwing pilots are leapfrogging 4 years of seniority seems a bit tactless. Of course I’m biased, but WJ pilots got absolutely nothing out of this merger. All losses. Usually an arbitrator will split the groups evenly in their displeasure. I am relieved our MEC is seeking a judicial review with our legal team.
For the record I hold no ill will towards the Sunwing pilots, like most pilots here, my anger is directed at our merger committee who pretended to be an arbitrator in their proposals instead of sticking up for all of us 100% like the Sunwing committee did.

CF46. I'm glad you know where to aim. From the WG perspective, I am told (by one of the guys on the merge committee) that the merger committees got along fairly well but it was the WS MEC that basically straight armed our MEC. We showed up to meeting #1 with 20 or 30 pages of notes. The WS MEC? Half a page. The comms were shite which is why it went to the arbitrator for everything The arbitrator did notice the difference in prep. Other comments I have seen recently: "They wanted one list - they've got one list". Also the read is a detailed slog of 59 pages. From what I got from it, the arbitrated formula is basically an adaptation of the WS #1 proposal. Correct me if I am wrong. From my perspective I will go up about 8 months in actual seniority (where I slot in on DOH) but will drop from 62.5% to about 77% overall seniority. Guess how delighted I am. THe actual list still has yet to be published. I am going by the xls spreadsheet floating around which has seniority (I am group 2) calculated as 315 + (4.1 ROUGHLY x WG sen #) + WG sen# ) = new blended sen#.
Not sure if that is what will be the final result but apparently it's a good approximation.

From my perspective your MEC chair "got some 'splaining to do Lucy". Back in Feb or so this year, the wife has a WS MEC podcast going. I'm half listening and then hear Mr Lewall say something like "Sunwing MEC finally came to the table". Pardon? We knew we were the small fish and have been wanting to talk since this was announced. That was a bit of a nose stretcher IMO. Now I see this latest from him post arbitrator announcement. See attachment. Wow. Perhaps he needs to head to planet Dagobah for some anger training from Master Yoda. Is this how he promotes unity etc going forward? Sounds like he did the same as the AC MEC and over promised and under delivered. The only difference is he isn't threatening to leave. In fact leaving might be the best thing possible since we at WG don't really see how he will be truly representing us post merge like the comments you can read for yourself. His comments before and after the announcement are attached. Anyhow, see some of you at one of my happiest places on the planet - the bar in PUJ after going sailing for a few drinks before dinner.

As far as those at WS telling us that "we at WG were saved" can they please provide their link to the private books of Stephen Hunter who owns the WG group and the private books of ONEX so that we can judge for ourselves who is and isn't profitable? This link paints a slightly different pic than that painted by the WS MEC. Yes it's CBC and thus a bit suspect but they quote what looks to be a serious person.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6552135

[FurHat]

As far as those at WS telling us that "we at WG were saved" can they please provide their link to the private books of Stephen Hunter who owns the WG group and the private books of ONEX so that we can judge for ourselves who is and isn't profitable? This link paints a slightly different pic than that painted by the WS MEC. Yes it's CBC and thus a bit suspect but they quote what looks to be a serious person.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6552135

In Sunwing's own submissions to the Governor in Council that approved their sale they admitted that in absence of acquisition, their ongoing viability in the market would be in jeopardy. Not relevant to the seniority integration though, and it was addressed by both Gedalof and Kaplan the his arbitration of the flight attendants.

The Financial Situation of the Parties
Before the pandemic, Sunwing’s financial position was stable, with a serviceable debt burden and a positive cash balance. However, the impact of the pandemic forced Sunwing to rely on more debt and lease liabilities, as was the case for several other carriers. Sunwing’s outstanding federal loans include loans of $216.5 million (M) to maintain viability in the face of COVID-19 and Travel Credit Facility drawings of $100.4M, both under the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility (LEEFF) program. Sunwing faced further financial hardships as a result of operational challenges during the 2022 winter holiday travel season, leading to high costs to repatriate stranded passengers. Sunwing was also required to compensate travelers for disruptions in accordance with the Air Passenger Protection Regulations (APPR).

In the absence of the Acquisition, Sunwing’s ongoing viability in the market would be in jeopardy.

https://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2023/202 ... t-eng.html

[cloak]

From a business point of view, there was no compelling advantage for this acquisition as WestJet was already providing a sizeable portion of the lift for Sunwing vacations, which would have naturally grown after Sunwing airline's likely bankruptcy.

Whatever perks, benefits or high pay for few senior pilots argued in their submission, would have been meaningless once the airline failed. Plus, Sunwing simply had too many pilots on its roster and needed to be "right-sized" like WestJet, before being absorbed. And there were “anomalies” in Sunwing’s seniority list that escaped the arbitrator’s scrutiny. These can be revisited.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I hope attitudes like this aren’t typical of the average Sunwing pilots. Senior WJ FOs have seen their upgrade go from 10 years to potentially 15+. The Sunwing pilots have been handed a lifeline with a golden goose, leapfrogging ahead years of current WJ pilots in some cases, on a vastly superior contract. While WJ pilots got absolutely nothing.
Yet they’re still complaining. ‘Archaic SOPS’. Give me a break. Pathetic

Attitudes like what? Ungrateful? Who should we be grateful to? It's that attitude that is stirring the pot over here. You also realise that there were plenty of FOs just about to get an upgrade at SWG that now may have to wait an extra 8-10 years as well right? Not what a lot of people signed up for. I feel for your guys, I do, however don't stand there and tell us we should be grateful. It comes across as more than a little bit arrogant

Bang on Handover. For Canada Flyer with regard to your WS archaic SOPs, we have some memo out for the new (actually really old) SOPs from WS. I read it and could see the 73A (-200) era SOPs in there as well as some RCAF type calls. I am told that the WS SOPs came from First Air who got theirs from Canadian Pacific. Not sure if that is correct, but they are a bit cumbersome at times. The ones at WG were converted from so-called "Green Sheets" to basically match the Boeing FCTM a few years back. Green Sheets were written back when WG started. Who wrote them I'm not sure but at some point it was decided to match up with what the airplane manufacturer recommended rather than something that quotes Admiral Horatio Nelson. Oh wait that's the Navy but you get the idea. Stick to simple and modern that utilizes all the available tools and promotes LESS talking below 1000' rather than the verbal diarrhea that is now our reality.
Pity the WS standards and training department did not use this merge as a golden opportunity to modernise.
You do know that VNAV can be armed on the ground at the gate? The wing will not separate from the fuselage if VNAV is engaged below 3000 AGL on departure.
Tell me what has fewer syllables: "Manual Flight" or "Auto throttle disengaged - Auto pilot disengaged".
At 1000' PF (or PM) calls "Stable" OR at 1000' "Check set MA ---> XXXX' set ---> stable (or GA). Hmmmmm. All thats missing is hearing the landing clearance.
You do know that there are other ways to do things?
Fun times ahead I am sure.

Dude. Shut up. You’re paid to fly a book. Syllables don’t matter. You can turn your tongue one extra time on a mandatory call. It’s fine, you won’t die

[boeingboy]

As far as those at WS telling us that "we at WG were saved" can they please provide their link to the private books of Stephen Hunter who owns the WG group and the private books of ONEX so that we can judge for ourselves who is and isn't profitable? This link paints a slightly different pic than that painted by the WS MEC. Yes it's CBC and thus a bit suspect but they quote what looks to be a serious person.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6552135

In Sunwing's own submissions to the Governor in Council that approved their sale they admitted that in absence of acquisition, their ongoing viability in the market would be in jeopardy. Not relevant to the seniority integration though, and it was addressed by both Gedalof and Kaplan the his arbitration of the flight attendants.

The Financial Situation of the Parties
Before the pandemic, Sunwing’s financial position was stable, with a serviceable debt burden and a positive cash balance. However, the impact of the pandemic forced Sunwing to rely on more debt and lease liabilities, as was the case for several other carriers. Sunwing’s outstanding federal loans include loans of $216.5 million (M) to maintain viability in the face of COVID-19 and Travel Credit Facility drawings of $100.4M, both under the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility (LEEFF) program. Sunwing faced further financial hardships as a result of operational challenges during the 2022 winter holiday travel season, leading to high costs to repatriate stranded passengers. Sunwing was also required to compensate travelers for disruptions in accordance with the Air Passenger Protection Regulations (APPR).

In the absence of the Acquisition, Sunwing’s ongoing viability in the market would be in jeopardy.

https://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2023/202 ... t-eng.html

Oh please - can we stop with the "Sunwing wasn't viable and was going under" Bullshit.

There is nothing that points to this. If any of you had bothered to look up the company financials - you would find we made $70 - $100 million profit, ($20 million in 2019 due to new hotels being built) just about every year except for losing about 200 million during the 2 years of COVID. In the last year of operation (before the sale was completed) we made 75 million dollars and had 2 billion in assets. Yea - that's the group - but so what. The airline wasn't going anywhere - it was part of the groups success.

Westjet is no different. You most likely lost 4 times that amount. If you were a stand alone company you might all be BOTL at Transat when they bought a bankrupt Westjet. The only reason Westjet came out on top of this is the internal shuffling of money in the ONEX umbrella.

The sale is done - put it behind us and try to get along.

[FurHat]

As far as those at WS telling us that "we at WG were saved" can they please provide their link to the private books of Stephen Hunter who owns the WG group and the private books of ONEX so that we can judge for ourselves who is and isn't profitable? This link paints a slightly different pic than that painted by the WS MEC. Yes it's CBC and thus a bit suspect but they quote what looks to be a serious person.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/video/9.6552135

In Sunwing's own submissions to the Governor in Council that approved their sale they admitted that in absence of acquisition, their ongoing viability in the market would be in jeopardy. Not relevant to the seniority integration though, and it was addressed by both Gedalof and Kaplan the his arbitration of the flight attendants.

The Financial Situation of the Parties
Before the pandemic, Sunwing’s financial position was stable, with a serviceable debt burden and a positive cash balance. However, the impact of the pandemic forced Sunwing to rely on more debt and lease liabilities, as was the case for several other carriers. Sunwing’s outstanding federal loans include loans of $216.5 million (M) to maintain viability in the face of COVID-19 and Travel Credit Facility drawings of $100.4M, both under the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility (LEEFF) program. Sunwing faced further financial hardships as a result of operational challenges during the 2022 winter holiday travel season, leading to high costs to repatriate stranded passengers. Sunwing was also required to compensate travelers for disruptions in accordance with the Air Passenger Protection Regulations (APPR).

In the absence of the Acquisition, Sunwing’s ongoing viability in the market would be in jeopardy.

https://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2023/202 ... t-eng.html

Oh please - can we stop with the "Sunwing wasn't viable and was going under" Bullshit.

There is nothing that points to this. If any of you had bothered to look up the company financials - you would find we made $70 - $100 million profit, ($20 million in 2019 due to new hotels being built) just about every year except for losing about 200 million during the 2 years of COVID. In the last year of operation (before the sale was completed) we made 75 million dollars and had 2 billion in assets. Yea - that's the group - but so what. The airline wasn't going anywhere - it was part of the groups success.

Westjet is no different. You most likely lost 4 times that amount. If you were a stand alone company you might all be BOTL at Transat when they bought a bankrupt Westjet. The only reason Westjet came out on top of this is the internal shuffling of money in the ONEX umbrella.

The sale is done - put it behind us and try to get along.

So...Sunwing lied to the government about their financial status?

[BigQ]

Someone earlier (page 17) asked how many pilots at the Sunwing YQB base

16 Captains
27 FOs

As they will be merged into YUL, that will make the YUL base

70 CAs
84 FOs

[JBI]

Oh please - can we stop with the "Sunwing wasn't viable and was going under" Bullshit.

...

The sale is done - put it behind us and try to get along.

So...Sunwing lied to the government about their financial status?

WestJet pilot here.

Legally, Sunwing's financial status isn't a consideration in seniority list integration. We can argue that perhaps a company's viability should be, but that's not what the law is (there are exceptions, but they are not really a factor in this situation). So while the feelings in that debate may be valid, it is entirely moot in this discussion and I tell that to every WJ pilot who has asked, some even quite innocently "we're buying them, so they go BOTL, right?" No, not at all.

I'll be honest, there are things about this award that I don't like. There are a few points that Gedalof makes where he outlines a potential issue and then just goes "ya, but, whatever" and then moves on. Many other mergers have different ratios for different traunches of pilots - I think that different ratios in different areas could have smoothed over some of the areas of perceived unfairness.

While WestJet pilots have, for the most part, kept or improved their relative seniority, based on their current scheduling, vacation and base allocations, relative seniority is less of an issue than it seems to be at Sunwing where your relatively seniority, especially in your base, is primary. It's a little like when I gave my kids their Halloween Candy yesterday after dinner; they each wanted what they other got!

I'm not looking to engage in a fight of who won or lost. Just as I'm trying to do with colleagues, I'm trying to focus on what the real facts are as opposed to who has things worse. Onex is merging us and we don't have a choice in the matter. While my wife would definitely say I'm not an optimist, I'm trying to focus on the positives that in the medium to longer term, I think this merger provides more positives for both pilot groups than negatives.

[Handover]

Oh please - can we stop with the "Sunwing wasn't viable and was going under" Bullshit.

...

The sale is done - put it behind us and try to get along.

So...Sunwing lied to the government about their financial status?

WestJet pilot here.

Legally, Sunwing's financial status isn't a consideration in seniority list integration. We can argue that perhaps a company's viability should be, but that's not what the law is (there are exceptions, but they are not really a factor in this situation). So while the feelings in that debate may be valid, it is entirely moot in this discussion and I tell that to every WJ pilot who has asked, some even quite innocently "we're buying them, so they go BOTL, right?" No, not at all.

I'll be honest, there are things about this award that I don't like. There are a few points that Gedalof makes where he outlines a potential issue and then just goes "ya, but, whatever" and then moves on. Many other mergers have different ratios for different traunches of pilots - I think that different ratios in different areas could have smoothed over some of the areas of perceived unfairness.

While WestJet pilots have, for the most part, kept or improved their relative seniority, based on their current scheduling, vacation and base allocations, relative seniority is less of an issue than it seems to be at Sunwing where your relatively seniority, especially in your base, is primary. It's a little like when I gave my kids their Halloween Candy yesterday after dinner; they each wanted what they other got!

I'm not looking to engage in a fight of who won or lost. Just as I'm trying to do with colleagues, I'm trying to focus on what the real facts are as opposed to who has things worse. Onex is merging us and we don't have a choice in the matter. While my wife would definitely say I'm not an optimist, I'm trying to focus on the positives that in the medium to longer term, I think this merger provides more positives for both pilot groups than negatives.

Rational and well said.

[boeingboy]

In Sunwing's own submissions to the Governor in Council that approved their sale they admitted that in absence of acquisition, their ongoing viability in the market would be in jeopardy. Not relevant to the seniority integration though, and it was addressed by both Gedalof and Kaplan the his arbitration of the flight attendants.



https://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2023/202 ... t-eng.html

Oh please - can we stop with the "Sunwing wasn't viable and was going under" Bullshit.

There is nothing that points to this. If any of you had bothered to look up the company financials - you would find we made $70 - $100 million profit, ($20 million in 2019 due to new hotels being built) just about every year except for losing about 200 million during the 2 years of COVID. In the last year of operation (before the sale was completed) we made 75 million dollars and had 2 billion in assets. Yea - that's the group - but so what. The airline wasn't going anywhere - it was part of the groups success.

Westjet is no different. You most likely lost 4 times that amount. If you were a stand alone company you might all be BOTL at Transat when they bought a bankrupt Westjet. The only reason Westjet came out on top of this is the internal shuffling of money in the ONEX umbrella.

The sale is done - put it behind us and try to get along.

So...Sunwing lied to the government about their financial status?

Maybe and maybe not. Maybe they should have looked it up themselves...just like ALPA and CUPE should have before opening their big mouths.

I 'm thinking SH just used the airline numbers. When people simply say Sunwing - they usually refer to the airline, as it is the most visible part of the group - but that's not how the business is run.

The airline was created for one reason.....lift stability.

Jetsgo was roughly 90% of our lift. When they went out of business - that weekend alone cost the company $6 million, and it was decided then to start our own airline. I would bet my next paycheck that the airline never made money - but it was a necessary part of the business. A little loss here for a much bigger profit there. Especially now with 40 - 45 aircraft flying daily (8500 seats) during the winter season. It also allowed us to control the entire trips service level. The group as a whole was extremely successful - with the airline being an integral part of that.

As has been pointed out - the success or not doesn't make a difference in the award but my irritation is that some Westjet people are using it to stroke some sort of god complex where we are better than you losers. Unsustainable, bankrupt, viability in question - all words used by people who are not connected to the business or bother to try and understand it. All this does is poke the bear. Its human nature to focus on negatives as it's easy and gives a channel for funneling ones frustrations and anger, where we should be focusing on the positives that each side can bring. Our leaders should be the mechanism for focusing on the positives but inflammatory statements like the ones from your MEC chair show piss poor leadership....I was actually very impressed with his first release and held out hope until he decided to ignore his own words and drive off a cliff - again bringing the negatives to the spotlight.

I've been around too long and seen what lingering negative emotions have done to companies....I don't want to live through that here. We all need to accept what has transpired and welcome each other together.

[Handover]

Also an excellent post.

In complex situations like the Sunwing and WestJet merger, it's important to recognize that not everything is black and white; there's a vast spectrum of grey areas that hold value. Both companies have their strengths—be it in their Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs), contracts, or the quality of life they offer pilots. Each brings unique benefits that contribute positively to our profession.

it's natural to seek validation and a sense of superiority, especially during times of change and uncertainty. This can be a way to bolster our self-esteem and affirm our professional identities. However, focusing on superiority can create unnecessary divisions among colleagues who share the same passion and goals.

Instead of trying to outshine one another, let's appreciate the diverse experiences and expertise each pilot brings to the table. By embracing collaboration and learning from each other, we can forge a stronger, unified team that elevates everyone's success.

Can we move past the need to be superior and strive to be better together?

"Coming together is a beginning; keeping together is progress; working together is success." — Henry Ford

[pelmet]

I remember merging our company with a much smaller company at one point. They had a few small aircraft and we had way more. They were nearly out of business and after the merger got opportunities to fly aircraft that could only have dreamed of at their old company. And they were almost all on those dream aircraft reasonably quickly even though they didn't get date of hire. Yet I still heard the whining that they got screwed over because they didn't get date of hire.

It's a little like when I gave my kids their Halloween Candy yesterday after dinner; they each wanted what they other got!

The thought has crossed my mind that it seems that the more some have, the more they complain. Management is a bunch of idiots and the place can so obviously be run better, should have way more pay and less work(look at our government workers), extreme jealousy to want what others have, a desire for others to suffer if they are suffering, etc.

I think the only thing that will change with many kids when they grow up is the ability to have a veneer to hide their true feelings.

[Joeschumer]

I don’t know where you get your information from but nothing you said is correct, Air Canada was actually doing a more sizable portion of SVA flying than WJ, very little was done by Westjet, over 80% was done by sunwing pilots on sunwing or dry leased aircraft.

Westjet was not equipped to battle Air Transat and AC in vacation sales, they were the one of weakest vacation sellers in Canada. Sunwing was never overstaffed, in fact Sunwing was always understaffed and still is to this day. The winter flying is what the staffing level is predicated on and because it is operated on a minimal reserve schedule, average published schedule winter block hours are 90-120+ hours with OT availability almost every day.

I’m certain the arbitrator looked at all anomalies in all lists but in every merger there will be list anomalies it’s inescapable.

From a business point of view, there was no compelling advantage for this acquisition as WestJet was already providing a sizeable portion of the lift for Sunwing vacations, which would have naturally grown after Sunwing airline's likely bankruptcy.

Whatever perks, benefits or high pay for few senior pilots argued in their submission, would have been meaningless once the airline failed. Plus, Sunwing simply had too many pilots on its roster and needed to be "right-sized" like WestJet, before being absorbed. And there were “anomalies” in Sunwing’s seniority list that escaped the arbitrator’s scrutiny. These can be revisited.

[FurHat]

Oh please - can we stop with the "Sunwing wasn't viable and was going under" Bullshit.

There is nothing that points to this. If any of you had bothered to look up the company financials - you would find we made $70 - $100 million profit, ($20 million in 2019 due to new hotels being built) just about every year except for losing about 200 million during the 2 years of COVID. In the last year of operation (before the sale was completed) we made 75 million dollars and had 2 billion in assets. Yea - that's the group - but so what. The airline wasn't going anywhere - it was part of the groups success.

Westjet is no different. You most likely lost 4 times that amount. If you were a stand alone company you might all be BOTL at Transat when they bought a bankrupt Westjet. The only reason Westjet came out on top of this is the internal shuffling of money in the ONEX umbrella.

The sale is done - put it behind us and try to get along.

So...Sunwing lied to the government about their financial status?

Maybe and maybe not. Maybe they should have looked it up themselves...just like ALPA and CUPE should have before opening their big mouths.

I 'm thinking SH just used the airline numbers. When people simply say Sunwing - they usually refer to the airline, as it is the most visible part of the group - but that's not how the business is run.

The airline was created for one reason.....lift stability.

Jetsgo was roughly 90% of our lift. When they went out of business - that weekend alone cost the company $6 million, and it was decided then to start our own airline. I would bet my next paycheck that the airline never made money - but it was a necessary part of the business. A little loss here for a much bigger profit there. Especially now with 40 - 45 aircraft flying daily (8500 seats) during the winter season. It also allowed us to control the entire trips service level. The group as a whole was extremely successful - with the airline being an integral part of that.

As has been pointed out - the success or not doesn't make a difference in the award but my irritation is that some Westjet people are using it to stroke some sort of god complex where we are better than you losers. Unsustainable, bankrupt, viability in question - all words used by people who are not connected to the business or bother to try and understand it. All this does is poke the bear. Its human nature to focus on negatives as it's easy and gives a channel for funneling ones frustrations and anger, where we should be focusing on the positives that each side can bring. Our leaders should be the mechanism for focusing on the positives but inflammatory statements like the ones from your MEC chair show piss poor leadership....I was actually very impressed with his first release and held out hope until he decided to ignore his own words and drive off a cliff - again bringing the negatives to the spotlight.

I've been around too long and seen what lingering negative emotions have done to companies....I don't want to live through that here. We all need to accept what has transpired and welcome each other together.

Transport Canada did look into it themselves. They hired Oxera to perform a financial analysis on both companies and found Sunwing at significantly more risk. They approved the deal partly out of concern that Sunwing would disappear and the competitive landscape in Canada would suffer. This way there are conditions attached to its integration that wouldn't have existed had it simply been allowed to fail or withdraw.

I agree that it is immaterial to the seniority integration, and precedent agrees. I'm disappointed that the respective WestJet merger committees wasted so much energy on it.

[TommyJet]

Could it be possible that the 'Sunwing financial vulnerability' card was played to grease the wheels of the merger approval? Mergers are always politically difficult as they inevitably imply less competition and higher vacation prices for Joe Public. If you can convince the public that one of the parties is on the verge of going out of business it is much easier politically to get the business deal done.

Sunwing Airlines has always been an 'unprofitable' expense on the balance sheet of Sunwing Travel Group, but a necessary expense to provide guaranteed lift to the tour operator. These things can be made to look however profitable or unprofitable is convenient for tax purposes. The only insight into Sunwing's true financial viability has been through the TUI AG Annual Report, as they own a 49% stake. These financial statements show a significant profit in 2022 from the 'Canadian strategic venture' and a year-on-year downturn in the half-year reports in 2023 due to a sale of the venture. TUI still own 49% of the Blue Diamond Hotel Group although it has been renamed Midnight Holdings in the statements; this is still profitable. Undoubtedly Sunwing Travel Group could have afforded to keep the airline operating if they needed to, but this venture brings synergies and a chance to have Westjet run the airline and guarantee the lift, so they can concentrate on the part of the business they enjoy being in. It also allows them to take over and absorb a competitor in Westjet Vacations. Westjet Airlines were happy to get more planes and pilots and more guaranteed charter business for their airline.

It seems the arbitrators did believe the press releases about financial vulnerability, but found it irrelevant regardless. A lot of the public statements from the companies and the unions are truthful to an extent, but also public posturing and should be understood in context. If you take them on face value though sometimes it can result in dissappointment. Hopefully the pilot groups can overcome their individual disappointments and accept the new reality, as together there are opportunities for growth and the best way to ensure the pilots share in those opportunities is through solidarity.

[MaxAuto]

Could it be possible that the 'Sunwing financial vulnerability' card was played to grease the wheels of the merger approval? Mergers are always politically difficult as they inevitably imply less competition and higher vacation prices for Joe Public. If you can convince the public that one of the parties is on the verge of going out of business it is much easier politically to get the business deal done.

Sunwing Airlines has always been an 'unprofitable' expense on the balance sheet of Sunwing Travel Group, but a necessary expense to provide guaranteed lift to the tour operator. These things can be made to look however profitable or unprofitable is convenient for tax purposes. The only insight into Sunwing's true financial viability has been through the TUI AG Annual Report, as they own a 49% stake. These financial statements show a significant profit in 2022 from the 'Canadian strategic venture' and a year-on-year downturn in the half-year reports in 2023 due to a sale of the venture. TUI still own 49% of the Blue Diamond Hotel Group although it has been renamed Midnight Holdings in the statements; this is still profitable. Undoubtedly Sunwing Travel Group could have afforded to keep the airline operating if they needed to, but this venture brings synergies and a chance to have Westjet run the airline and guarantee the lift, so they can concentrate on the part of the business they enjoy being in. It also allows them to take over and absorb a competitor in Westjet Vacations. Westjet Airlines were happy to get more planes and pilots and more guaranteed charter business for their airline.

It seems the arbitrators did believe the press releases about financial vulnerability, but found it irrelevant regardless. A lot of the public statements from the companies and the unions are truthful to an extent, but also public posturing and should be understood in context. If you take them on face value though sometimes it can result in dissappointment. Hopefully the pilot groups can overcome their individual disappointments and accept the new reality, as together there are opportunities for growth and the best way to ensure the pilots share in those opportunities is through solidarity.

BINGO!!

This merger is a partner between WestJet a Sunwing Group. Sunwing group fills the resorts through the reservation platforms that WestJet now owns and fills the seats on the planes that WestJet now own. WestJet will make money from both including the existing WestJet Vacations.

WestJet did not buy a failing company. They bought into a major competitor and joined forces to go up against Air Canada Vacations, Air Transat, and now Flair.

Alex H. has said repeatedly over the last two years that major growth is in the vacation and leisure markets. This deal is a major collaboration between two companies that Sunwing Group is still a major part of. "Stronger Together"

[CaptDukeNukem]

So...Sunwing lied to the government about their financial status?

Maybe and maybe not. Maybe they should have looked it up themselves...just like ALPA and CUPE should have before opening their big mouths.

I 'm thinking SH just used the airline numbers. When people simply say Sunwing - they usually refer to the airline, as it is the most visible part of the group - but that's not how the business is run.

The airline was created for one reason.....lift stability.

Jetsgo was roughly 90% of our lift. When they went out of business - that weekend alone cost the company $6 million, and it was decided then to start our own airline. I would bet my next paycheck that the airline never made money - but it was a necessary part of the business. A little loss here for a much bigger profit there. Especially now with 40 - 45 aircraft flying daily (8500 seats) during the winter season. It also allowed us to control the entire trips service level. The group as a whole was extremely successful - with the airline being an integral part of that.

As has been pointed out - the success or not doesn't make a difference in the award but my irritation is that some Westjet people are using it to stroke some sort of god complex where we are better than you losers. Unsustainable, bankrupt, viability in question - all words used by people who are not connected to the business or bother to try and understand it. All this does is poke the bear. Its human nature to focus on negatives as it's easy and gives a channel for funneling ones frustrations and anger, where we should be focusing on the positives that each side can bring. Our leaders should be the mechanism for focusing on the positives but inflammatory statements like the ones from your MEC chair show piss poor leadership....I was actually very impressed with his first release and held out hope until he decided to ignore his own words and drive off a cliff - again bringing the negatives to the spotlight.

I've been around too long and seen what lingering negative emotions have done to companies....I don't want to live through that here. We all need to accept what has transpired and welcome each other together.

Transport Canada did look into it themselves. They hired Oxera to perform a financial analysis on both companies and found Sunwing at significantly more risk. They approved the deal partly out of concern that Sunwing would disappear and the competitive landscape in Canada would suffer. This way there are conditions attached to its integration that wouldn't have existed had it simply been allowed to fail or withdraw.

I agree that it is immaterial to the seniority integration, and precedent agrees. I'm disappointed that the respective WestJet merger committees wasted so much energy on it.

Transport Canada didn’t do diddly squat. Maybe you’re thinking of the CTA? Or the competition bureau. Transport Canada is good at doing two things. Running old exams for young pilots with questions that don’t mean anything in today’s world, and 2nd…… sending stickers 12 months late

[FurHat]

Transport Canada didn’t do diddly squat. Maybe you’re thinking of the CTA? Or the competition bureau. Transport Canada is good at doing two things. Running old exams for young pilots with questions that don’t mean anything in today’s world, and 2nd…… sending stickers 12 months late

The Gazette I posted disagrees;

Financial Implications
Transport Canada also assessed the Parties’ financial stability, as Canadian air carriers continue to recover from the unprecedented impacts of COVID-19 pandemic, which saw their revenues fall drastically.

https://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2023/202 ... t-eng.html

[CaptDukeNukem]

Transport Canada didn’t do diddly squat. Maybe you’re thinking of the CTA? Or the competition bureau. Transport Canada is good at doing two things. Running old exams for young pilots with questions that don’t mean anything in today’s world, and 2nd…… sending stickers 12 months late

The Gazette I posted disagrees;

Financial Implications
Transport Canada also assessed the Parties’ financial stability, as Canadian air carriers continue to recover from the unprecedented impacts of COVID-19 pandemic, which saw their revenues fall drastically.

https://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2023/202 ... t-eng.html

I stand corrected. Thank you for the link. Typically TC doesn’t have much say in these things, but asked from the minister of transport then yes.

[munzil]

Transport Canada did look into it themselves. They hired Oxera to perform a financial analysis on both companies and found Sunwing at significantly more risk. They approved the deal partly out of concern that Sunwing would disappear and the competitive landscape in Canada would suffer. This way there are conditions attached to its integration that wouldn't have existed had it simply been allowed to fail or withdraw.

I agree that it is immaterial to the seniority integration, and precedent agrees. I'm disappointed that the respective WestJet merger committees wasted so much energy on it.

Canada Gazette, Part I, Volume 157, Number 14, published on April 8, 2023[
The financial analysis performed by Oxera prior to the conclusion of the Departmental Report on December 5, 2022, showed that, while both WestJet and Sunwing were financially viable, Sunwing presented more significant risk, especially if there were further disruptions and delays to the ongoing recovery of the air sector

It’s worth noting, however, that Oxera did not suggest that Sunwing was on the brink of bankruptcy. The report confirmed that both airlines were financially stable, with Sunwing simply carrying higher risk due to its smaller scale compared to WestJet. The portrayal of an imminent collapse seems to be an exaggerated narrative, potentially leveraged in negotiations to emphasize WestJet’s position.

[tik1]

I can finally post in real-time.

This is what WJ Group has scored. A entrenched dominant market share of the packaged vacation in Canada.

Unlike what I heard on the PIREP podcast, this ain't a small operation to the south. Just before the pandemic messed us all up, Sunwing Group was doing $3 billion in sales according to Globe and Mail.

Based on a interview on PAX last month, we're back to that level last year already.

We have a baseline of about 40 planes worth of winter work, and mostly constrained by our summer work.

With WJ having more work in summer, the vacation side isn't constrained anymore. We can expand a lot more. I think provided we can get more planes from Boeing, upgrade times will be faster on a overall basis. Individually it'll depend.

We also have a profitable US division and we've done work out of the US. If we get the vacation expansion, we might have to start running 787 south eventually.

It won't be instant, but our vacation division people are top notch. Our load factors are 95-100% consistently when we're in winter season.

I'll miss my summer work and lifestyle, but change is here and I'm excited to see where it goes, after one more season of sipping Fanta on the beach with my 1 leg days.

I also don't appreciate hearing CRM is "at risk'. Everyone should be a professional. I hope everyone can agree to that.

[Handover]

I also don't appreciate hearing CRM is "at risk'. Everyone should be a professional. I hope everyone can agree to that.

Yes, I'd like to understand what is meant by CRM is at risk. Certain pilots taking out their anger on a Sunwing pilot for a decision that the Sunwing pilot had nothing to do with?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Oh please - can we stop with the "Sunwing wasn't viable and was going under" Bullshit.

There is nothing that points to this. If any of you had bothered to look up the company financials - you would find we made $70 - $100 million profit, ($20 million in 2019 due to new hotels being built) just about every year except for losing about 200 million during the 2 years of COVID. In the last year of operation (before the sale was completed) we made 75 million dollars and had 2 billion in assets. Yea - that's the group - but so what. The airline wasn't going anywhere - it was part of the groups success.

Westjet is no different. You most likely lost 4 times that amount. If you were a stand alone company you might all be BOTL at Transat when they bought a bankrupt Westjet. The only reason Westjet came out on top of this is the internal shuffling of money in the ONEX umbrella.

The sale is done - put it behind us and try to get along.

You are comparing an airline that makes enough money to stay afloat who also owns a vacation package provider that brings in additional money to a vacation package provider that makes enough money to stay afloat who owns an airline that has the sole purpose of servicing the vacation packages and doesn't bring in much of any money.

Sunwing Airlines is basically a loss leader and by selling it off, Sunwing Travel Group can focus on the hotels that print cash. It's not unlike WestJet consolidating it's operations to the west where it makes much more net profit.