It’s Time - Back on track

[flyinhigh]

Since the last topic reverted to never ending discussions on SM and NM, let’s start a new topic to actually discuss what the topic was meant for, HAVING PROPER REPRESENTATION at Porter.

Looooong past due and will be a welcome change. Can’t wait for actual communication channels, one umbrella covering all aspects that is work (not having to email 39 different emails for different aspects of work), having a SAY in our work rules.

[TPP]

Biggest thing I'm looking forward to is no concessions via bulletin with nothing in return.

Over the many years I've been here I've seen a slow degradation of work rules, with rapid pay increases to keep the pitchforks at bay.

I'm all for more money in my pocket, especially in Canada's current economy, but I also want concrete work rules that can't be removed via bulletin when AG deems it inefficient.

[Grey_Wolf]

A few question for the organizing committee at Porter.

- If you had the required amount of signatures tomorrow, how long would it foreseeably take to complete a CBA/TA given the start up of a union?

- During that time, what would pilots be held to? the current FOAG? would everything on paper be 'frozen' until a CBA/TA was in place?

- Would it be possible in the interim; until a CBA/TA in formaly in place, to have modifications to the FOAG via MOA/MOU?

Thanks in advance!

[goingnowherefast]

A few question for the organizing committee at Porter.

- If you had the required amount of signatures tomorrow, how long would it foreseeably take to complete a CBA/TA given the start up of a union?

- During that time, what would pilots be held to? the current FOAG? would everything on paper be 'frozen' until a CBA/TA was in place?

- Would it be possible in the interim; until a CBA/TA in formaly in place, to have modifications to the FOAG via MOA/MOU?

Thanks in advance!

I'm not Porter, but I am ALPA, so still qualified to answer.

1. Depends on how negotiations go. CBA1 usually takes a while. Get a stubborn management team like AC or WJ and it'll take a while. Get a productive and cooperate management team like Calm Air and it'll happen quickly. I'd imagine the goal of any ALPA Negotiating Committee is cooperative and quick. Although with the QOL degradation that TPP and others talk about, it might extend it a bit. Some things also take multiple contracts. Every airline's CBA1 is usually a little weak. Can't fix everything at once. CBA2 is often much better, and where people are generally much more satisfied. The main win with CBA1 is work rules are now much more controlled by the pilot group. Sure they can still be amended (LOU/MOA), but it requires mutual agreement between management AND the union. I'm going out on a limb and say CBA1 will take a year, but it could be hopefully 6 months, could be painfully 2 years.

2. Yes, the current work rules are basically frozen. See #3

3. The work rules pre-CBA1 and after certification can still be amended with mutual agreement between management and the union. This starts down the complicated road of "negotiating capital". If management or the union REALLY wants something, the other party may use that as leverage to push timelines and their desires. If this doesn't happen, don't get too uppity. Something you really want might be getting used as leverage to bargain for something else you really want.

Now is probably the best time there will ever be to form a union and negotiate. Better get on it before its too late. The worst timing is to certify in a recession, when it's too late for the other union protections to be used. (Layoffs, mergers, etc., have already happened). Also negotiating in a recession is very different when there's a surplus of pilots.

[PRM1]

So what’s longer? A Nautical Mile or a Statute Mile?

I think it depends on if the earth is flat or not…

[pitottubey]

I'm starting to genuinely question whether unions actually benefit more then they cost, 1.85 percent of salary tax deductible, when time after time they don't seem to do great on contract negotiations. I know there's some advantages, but they seem minimal and are they really worth the cost? After watching AC fold like a cheap suit, what's the point? Not a rhetorical question btw.

[TPP]

I'm starting to genuinely question whether unions actually benefit more then they cost, 1.85 percent of salary tax deductible, when time after time they don't seem to do great on contract negotiations. I know there's some advantages, but they seem minimal and are they really worth the cost? After watching AC fold like a cheap suit, what's the point? Not a rhetorical question btw.

When you consider what Canadian ALPA was able to do in 1 round of negotiations for AC I wouldn't exactly call it folding like a cheap suit.

2 billion dollars in extra compensation

41 percent raise over the course of the contract

Better pension

Huge top up in benefits

Schedule release on the 12th of the month

Better reserve and release rules

Commuter policy

List goes on......

And unlike Porter Pilots, AC pilots have YOS and do not pay for their benefits like we do, and their benefits are far superior to ours.

There was no way you're going to undo the harm of ACPA in one round of negotiations.

But if Porter copy and pasted ACs new CBA here I think everyone would be doing cartwheels all the way to the bank.

Plus all other benefits of a union like legal protections, scope, right to dispute violations to work rules through a legal process, etc.

And if you look at WJ's ALPA don't think for one second Swoop would not be alive and well today, suppressing Canadian wages if ALPA didn't use it's negotiations power in full force.

I find people that say ALPA isn't effective in Canada are missing the forest for the trees.

[cjp]

I'm starting to genuinely question whether unions actually benefit more then they cost, 1.85 percent of salary tax deductible, when time after time they don't seem to do great on contract negotiations. I know there's some advantages, but they seem minimal and are they really worth the cost? After watching AC fold like a cheap suit, what's the point? Not a rhetorical question btw.

When you consider what Canadian ALPA was able to do in 1 round of negotiations for AC I wouldn't exactly call it folding like a cheap suit.

2 billion dollars in extra compensation

41 percent raise over the course of the contract

Better pension

Huge top up in benefits

Schedule release on the 12th of the month

Better reserve and release rules

Commuter policy

List goes on......

And unlike Porter Pilots, AC pilots have YOS and do not pay for their benefits like we do, and their benefits are far superior to ours.

There was no way you're going to undo the harm of ACPA in one round of negotiations.

But if Porter copy and pasted ACs new CBA here I think everyone would be doing cartwheels all the way to the bank.

Plus all other benefits of a union like legal protections, scope, right to dispute violations to work rules through a legal process, etc.

And if you look at WJ's ALPA don't think for one second Swoop would not be alive and well today, suppressing Canadian wages if ALPA didn't use it's negotiations power in full force.

I find people that say ALPA isn't effective in Canada are missing the forest for the trees.

Agreed, except first years. yes yes yes, I know, you spend most of your career on year 12 lol.

Sorry had to.

[cdnavater]

I'm starting to genuinely question whether unions actually benefit more then they cost, 1.85 percent of salary tax deductible, when time after time they don't seem to do great on contract negotiations. I know there's some advantages, but they seem minimal and are they really worth the cost? After watching AC fold like a cheap suit, what's the point? Not a rhetorical question btw.

When you consider what Canadian ALPA was able to do in 1 round of negotiations for AC I wouldn't exactly call it folding like a cheap suit.

2 billion dollars in extra compensation

41 percent raise over the course of the contract

Better pension

Huge top up in benefits

Schedule release on the 12th of the month

Better reserve and release rules

Commuter policy

List goes on......

And unlike Porter Pilots, AC pilots have YOS and do not pay for their benefits like we do, and their benefits are far superior to ours.

There was no way you're going to undo the harm of ACPA in one round of negotiations.

But if Porter copy and pasted ACs new CBA here I think everyone would be doing cartwheels all the way to the bank.

Plus all other benefits of a union like legal protections, scope, right to dispute violations to work rules through a legal process, etc.

And if you look at WJ's ALPA don't think for one second Swoop would not be alive and well today, suppressing Canadian wages if ALPA didn't use it's negotiations power in full force.

I find people that say ALPA isn't effective in Canada are missing the forest for the trees.

I think the problem might be the expectation bias, everyone was expecting the moon and the stars but only got the moon!
They don’t realize in negotiations you ask for 100, they start a zero and you meet somewhere in the middle, I was actually surprised at some of the high end wages.
Could more have gone to the bottom, sure, two things at play here, AC wants to pay less and the union is happy to let them so that when they have trouble filling ground schools, they will need to figure something out without ALPA giving up any bargaining power.
Let’s say AC finds itself needing to offer a signing bonus to attract pilots, ALPA won’t let that happen without the rest of the pilots getting the same bonus or at the very least something in exchange. Whereas Porter could do that without any trouble, then have have two groups, those who started without the bonus and those who have, guess what that does to morale, ask Jazz pilots, they can tell you!

[cjp]

I'm starting to genuinely question whether unions actually benefit more then they cost, 1.85 percent of salary tax deductible, when time after time they don't seem to do great on contract negotiations. I know there's some advantages, but they seem minimal and are they really worth the cost? After watching AC fold like a cheap suit, what's the point? Not a rhetorical question btw.

When you consider what Canadian ALPA was able to do in 1 round of negotiations for AC I wouldn't exactly call it folding like a cheap suit.

2 billion dollars in extra compensation

41 percent raise over the course of the contract

Better pension

Huge top up in benefits

Schedule release on the 12th of the month

Better reserve and release rules

Commuter policy

List goes on......

And unlike Porter Pilots, AC pilots have YOS and do not pay for their benefits like we do, and their benefits are far superior to ours.

There was no way you're going to undo the harm of ACPA in one round of negotiations.

But if Porter copy and pasted ACs new CBA here I think everyone would be doing cartwheels all the way to the bank.

Plus all other benefits of a union like legal protections, scope, right to dispute violations to work rules through a legal process, etc.

And if you look at WJ's ALPA don't think for one second Swoop would not be alive and well today, suppressing Canadian wages if ALPA didn't use it's negotiations power in full force.

I find people that say ALPA isn't effective in Canada are missing the forest for the trees.

I think the problem might be the expectation bias, everyone was expecting the moon and the stars but only got the moon!
They don’t realize in negotiations you ask for 100, they start a zero and you meet somewhere in the middle, I was actually surprised at some of the high end wages.
Could more have gone to the bottom, sure, two things at play here, AC wants to pay less and the union is happy to let them so that when they have trouble filling ground schools, they will need to figure something out without ALPA giving up any bargaining power.
Let’s say AC finds itself needing to offer a signing bonus to attract pilots, ALPA won’t let that happen without the rest of the pilots getting the same bonus or at the very least something in exchange. Whereas Porter could do that without any trouble, then have have two groups, those who started without the bonus and those who have, guess what that does to morale, ask Jazz pilots, they can tell you!

I'm confused, Jazz has ALPA and those negative things happened anyways. Jazz is likely not a good benchmark to sell ALPA from, as they are case and point as to how a union as powerful as ALPA can get the wind knocked out of them by a CPA and organization as forceful as AC.

[Speedbrakes]

I think the problem might be the expectation bias, everyone was expecting the moon and the stars but only got the moon!

And where did this expectation come from? It was shoved down their throats by ALPA.

I understand it's going to take a couple CBAs to get back what the AC pilots lost but ALPA understood that too and still decided to promise the moon and the stars to their constituents.

Bottom line for me is that my confidence has never been lower in ALPA. Let us see how this next benchmarking goes and if it's not great then I'll be more willing to talk union.

The people I've spoken to on the FOAG feel very strongly that they can give us all of the protections that ALPA can—including scope—while not taking 1.85%. I don't know yet whether that's true or not but I'm willing to give it a chance. Having an amicable relationship with management is a big plus.

I'm asking this honestly. Are there any examples of where the morale and atmosphere improved at a company after bringing in a union? I can't think of any off the top of my head. In fact I can only think of examples to the contrary but I would be happy to be wrong.

[goingnowherefast]

Much of AC ALPA's media campaign was aimed at the public and politicians. "We're paid less than the US pilots and less than we used to be paid".
Yes, that did have the appearances of over promise and under deliver. Lessons learned by all.

How can a company policy guide have the same protections as a union? Is there a way to invoke the appropriate sections of the CLC without forming a union? I don't know, I don't think so, but I'm happy to be proven wrong. Is there any air tight guarantee that management can't unilaterally amend the FOAG should some big important business change require it? (Including back-pedaling on any scope promise). Businesses gotta business, it's not a bad thing, it's what they do. Employee interests will always be 3rd (business 1st, customer 2nd). A union helps balance the playing field.

Morale improved at WJ. Not right away as it took time. WJ morale today is better than it was pre-certification.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I think the problem might be the expectation bias, everyone was expecting the moon and the stars but only got the moon!
They don’t realize in negotiations you ask for 100, they start a zero and you meet somewhere in the middle, I was actually surprised at some of the high end wages.
Could more have gone to the bottom, sure, two things at play here, AC wants to pay less and the union is happy to let them so that when they have trouble filling ground schools, they will need to figure something out without ALPA giving up any bargaining power.
Let’s say AC finds itself needing to offer a signing bonus to attract pilots, ALPA won’t let that happen without the rest of the pilots getting the same bonus or at the very least something in exchange. Whereas Porter could do that without any trouble, then have have two groups, those who started without the bonus and those who have, guess what that does to morale, ask Jazz pilots, they can tell you!

The problem is that ALPA over promises and under delivers.

[Speedbrakes]

Much of AC ALPA's media campaign was aimed at the public and politicians. "We're paid less than the US pilots and less than we used to be paid".
Yes, that did have the appearances of over promise and under deliver. Lessons learned by all.

But this is a lesson that has not been learned. It's been repeated more than once.

How can a company policy guide have the same protections as a union? Is there a way to invoke the appropriate sections of the CLC without forming a union? I don't know, I don't think so, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

This is where I'm at as well. I don't yet know the answer. I'm fortunate to know some of the people on the FOAG quite well and they are very certain that they can give us the same protections as a CBA without the need for a union. As I said I'm not sure about that. I need more information.

Morale improved at WJ. Not right away as it took time. WJ morale today is better than it was pre-certification.

Sorry but I was under the exact opposite impression. Again, happy to be wrong.

[cdnavater]

When you consider what Canadian ALPA was able to do in 1 round of negotiations for AC I wouldn't exactly call it folding like a cheap suit.

2 billion dollars in extra compensation

41 percent raise over the course of the contract

Better pension

Huge top up in benefits

Schedule release on the 12th of the month

Better reserve and release rules

Commuter policy

List goes on......

And unlike Porter Pilots, AC pilots have YOS and do not pay for their benefits like we do, and their benefits are far superior to ours.

There was no way you're going to undo the harm of ACPA in one round of negotiations.

But if Porter copy and pasted ACs new CBA here I think everyone would be doing cartwheels all the way to the bank.

Plus all other benefits of a union like legal protections, scope, right to dispute violations to work rules through a legal process, etc.

And if you look at WJ's ALPA don't think for one second Swoop would not be alive and well today, suppressing Canadian wages if ALPA didn't use it's negotiations power in full force.

I find people that say ALPA isn't effective in Canada are missing the forest for the trees.

I think the problem might be the expectation bias, everyone was expecting the moon and the stars but only got the moon!
They don’t realize in negotiations you ask for 100, they start a zero and you meet somewhere in the middle, I was actually surprised at some of the high end wages.
Could more have gone to the bottom, sure, two things at play here, AC wants to pay less and the union is happy to let them so that when they have trouble filling ground schools, they will need to figure something out without ALPA giving up any bargaining power.
Let’s say AC finds itself needing to offer a signing bonus to attract pilots, ALPA won’t let that happen without the rest of the pilots getting the same bonus or at the very least something in exchange. Whereas Porter could do that without any trouble, then have have two groups, those who started without the bonus and those who have, guess what that does to morale, ask Jazz pilots, they can tell you!

I'm confused, Jazz has ALPA and those negative things happened anyways. Jazz is likely not a good benchmark to sell ALPA from, as they are case and point as to how a union as powerful as ALPA can get the wind knocked out of them by a CPA and organization as forceful as AC.

The difference here is Jazz had scope through the AC pilots contract, it literally said no other operator as tier 2 other than Jazz. So, we never felt the need to secure scope, AC pilots “sold” our scope for peanuts and we ended up having to defend what we had which of course had a negative effect. We also made a big mistake, when we thought we had exclusivity, it turned out it was in the CPA and that required Jazz(Chorus) to enforce it, they didn’t and now PAL is operating when they are not supposed to be, hopefully the CIRB can set that straight.
We had to work hard to get rid of the competition that we weren’t protected from, years of unofficial bargaining and we were once again the sole provider of tier 2, obviously other than PAL discussed above.
The result of this was a negotiated contract where all Jazz pilots got a raise, it was supposed to be bigger and this month Jazz ALPA will make our case to the CIRB, again hopefully that is set right too.
I ended up taking home about 31% more from that, guess what Jazz tried to do, money at the bottom, where the problem was and more for instructors, ALPA said no way, you fix everyone or live with the mess you created. I’m pretty sure they originally just wanted to do a signing bonus, so they could take it away at any time, ALPA said nope!
I’ve been under the ALPA banner for a couple decades and never once have I regretted giving my dues, money well spent!
If you guys don’t get solid scope, what stops Porter from turning Porter Q into Porter SWOOP, I wouldn’t count on pilot supply from preventing that, things are slowing down and pilots love to skip the line.
I honestly don’t care too much what you guys do and if you feel protected enough, my guess is you’ll find out someday.

[PorterPilots4Change]

We are happy to share that we will be hosting our second ALPA information session. To join, reach out to one of our many organizing committee members, or, contact us via our website.

In solidarity,
www.PorterPilotsForChange.ca

[flyinhigh]

The people I've spoken to on the FOAG feel very strongly that they can give us all of the protections that ALPA can—including scope—while not taking 1.85%. I don't know yet whether that's true or not but I'm willing to give it a chance. Having an amicable relationship with management is a big plus.

I'm asking this honestly. Are there any examples of where the morale and atmosphere improved at a company after bringing in a union? I can't think of any off the top of my head. In fact I can only think of examples to the contrary but I would be happy to be wrong.

Good news, I've talked to Rob Deluce and he promises that we will always be protected and have rainbows and unicorns.

Under the FOAG there is ZERO PROTECTIONS, they are literally written in pencil, there is also zero recourse for company abuse of the POLICY document. (I.e, the constant circumvention of seniority). People can promise stuff all they want, if it is not a CONTRACT it means nothing. Will these FOAG reps (who are great people) be there in 1.5 years, if not will they still go to battle for the pilot group. After all, it is their notes and discussions that will all go away when they leave the position and than we sit at ground zero, AGAIN.

Also, we always hear that we have a good relationship with management. 1) Says who? Pilots are getting written up weekly when that did not occur a year ago 2) Crewsked threatens to write up pilots weekly, never happened a year ago 3) Amicable because the company says??

How can the FOAG promise you legal councel on the ground in Mexico, SFO, etc. Who's footing that bill to have a lawyer or rep on retainer to travel at a moments notice? Scope, will be circumvent the second it benefits the company and there is nothing we can do. No way to take it to arbitration if required.

From everything I have saw, this drive is about the relationship with the company and maintaining a good one. That relationship can defiantly be maintained with ALPA unless the COMPANY chooses not to.

In the end, ALL nay sayers want to compare us to Jazz while demanding we are paid like AC. If we are to be a big boy, let's start comparing to WJ, and AC and all the gains they have got. WJ ALPA did us all a favour by killing swoop, AC just increased 2 Billion and negotiates in 3 years. The 1.85% is also brought up the the nay sayers, yet when you look at the product and how everything you do falls under ALPA. Have an issue, reach out to a rep for all aspects. We don't need a rolodex of emails for different problems that occur, just call your rep, or reach out to any number of volunteers that make up the communication channel.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I’m sure I’m gonna get some flak for this post.

I’m not a nay sayer to ALPA, but don’t you wanna see what the company has to offer BEFORE we group up and start the process. If we lock in NOW, there is ZERO chance the company will improve anything until CBA 1. Which will take up to 2 years. It’s all about timing. Whilst I realize protections need to be put in, I personally think that this is being rushed for no apparent reason. Porter is not gonna start a SWOOP or a Jazz or an encore in the next few months.

It’s foolish to think you’re gonna get more right off the bat with ALPA. Wait and see, then decide.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I’m sure I’m gonna get some flak for this post.

I’m not a nay sayer to ALPA, but don’t you wanna see what the company has to offer BEFORE we group up and start the process. If we lock in NOW, there is ZERO chance the company will improve anything until CBA 1. Which will take up to 2 years. It’s all about timing. Whilst I realize protections need to be put in, I personally think that this is being rushed for no apparent reason. Porter is not gonna start a SWOOP or a Jazz or an encore in the next few months.

It’s foolish to think you’re gonna get more right off the bat with ALPA. Wait and see, then decide.

I hate to break it to you... Porter already has an Encore and it's called Dashport.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I’m sure I’m gonna get some flak for this post.

I’m not a nay sayer to ALPA, but don’t you wanna see what the company has to offer BEFORE we group up and start the process. If we lock in NOW, there is ZERO chance the company will improve anything until CBA 1. Which will take up to 2 years. It’s all about timing. Whilst I realize protections need to be put in, I personally think that this is being rushed for no apparent reason. Porter is not gonna start a SWOOP or a Jazz or an encore in the next few months.

It’s foolish to think you’re gonna get more right off the bat with ALPA. Wait and see, then decide.

I hate to break it to you... Porter already has an Encore and it's called Dashport.

You know. Never thought about it that way. You may be right. Thanks

[cdnavater]

I’m sure I’m gonna get some flak for this post.

I’m not a nay sayer to ALPA, but don’t you wanna see what the company has to offer BEFORE we group up and start the process. If we lock in NOW, there is ZERO chance the company will improve anything until CBA 1. Which will take up to 2 years. It’s all about timing. Whilst I realize protections need to be put in, I personally think that this is being rushed for no apparent reason. Porter is not gonna start a SWOOP or a Jazz or an encore in the next few months.

It’s foolish to think you’re gonna get more right off the bat with ALPA. Wait and see, then decide.

I hate to break it to you... Porter already has an Encore and it's called Dashport.

You know. Never thought about it that way. You may be right. Thanks

No, I. Pretty sure they separated the companies due to licensing issues, not to create a situation like WJ/Encore or dare I say AC/Jazz.
Remember when Jazz was wholly(100%) owned by AC, I do!

[goingnowherefast]

No, I. Pretty sure they separated the companies due to licensing issues, not to create a situation like WJ/Encore or dare I say AC/Jazz.
Remember when Jazz was wholly(100%) owned by AC, I do!

Dashport/Porter seems more like a AC/Rouge type arrangement. Albeit on a smaller scale. Two AOCs, one seniority list.

[dontcallmeshirley]

No, I. Pretty sure they separated the companies due to licensing issues, not to create a situation like WJ/Encore or dare I say AC/Jazz.
Remember when Jazz was wholly(100%) owned by AC, I do!

Dashport/Porter seems more like a AC/Rouge type arrangement. Albeit on a smaller scale. Two AOCs, one seniority list.

The intent behind it may be different, but at the end of the day they're the same. There are two lists and a "one-list" of sorts. Each Q400 operator flies flights for the mainline operator. They are both wholly owned by another company that also owns the mainline airline.

Code: Select all

WestJet

Onex
-> WestJet Airlines (sells tickets, operates flights for WestJet Airlines)
-> WestJet Encore (operates flights for WestJet Airlines)

Porter Aviation Holdings
-> Porter Airlines Canada Limited (sells tickets under Porter Airlines, operates flights for PACL)
-> Porter Airlines International (operates flights for PACL)

[Speedbrakes]

I’m sure I’m gonna get some flak for this post.

I’m not a nay sayer to ALPA, but don’t you wanna see what the company has to offer BEFORE we group up and start the process. If we lock in NOW, there is ZERO chance the company will improve anything until CBA 1. Which will take up to 2 years. It’s all about timing. Whilst I realize protections need to be put in, I personally think that this is being rushed for no apparent reason. Porter is not gonna start a SWOOP or a Jazz or an encore in the next few months.

It’s foolish to think you’re gonna get more right off the bat with ALPA. Wait and see, then decide.

This is exactly my point. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think a union is inevitable here. It will happen. And I'm perfectly fine with that in time. Just not right now. Let's see what the benchmark brings and at the very least it will serve as a starting point for CBA 1.

[cjp]

No, I. Pretty sure they separated the companies due to licensing issues, not to create a situation like WJ/Encore or dare I say AC/Jazz.
Remember when Jazz was wholly(100%) owned by AC, I do!

Dashport/Porter seems more like a AC/Rouge type arrangement. Albeit on a smaller scale. Two AOCs, one seniority list.

The intent behind it may be different, but at the end of the day they're the same. There are two lists and a "one-list" of sorts. Each Q400 operator flies flights for the mainline operator. They are both wholly owned by another company that also owns the mainline airline.

Code: Select all

WestJet

Onex
-> WestJet Airlines (sells tickets, operates flights for WestJet Airlines)
-> WestJet Encore (operates flights for WestJet Airlines)

Porter Aviation Holdings
-> Porter Airlines Canada Limited (sells tickets under Porter Airlines, operates flights for PACL)
-> Porter Airlines International (operates flights for PACL)

I think Porter is Porter. It does not fall under the same Westjet or Air Canada structure, as both of those companies created subsidiaries to compete in lower end markets. Porter instead created a higher end product, to step into a wider, more upscale market. Unfortunately that has left the original workhorse and it's crews feeling left out in the cold. It was evident in the call today.