Air Canada Pilot Incentive Bonus

[Aerkavo]

To summarize;

One group feels that through the confluence of events - external and internal; the political environment, pilot sentiment and other factors that the pilot group had a rare (once in a lifetime) opportunity to reset the relationship, establish a new high-water mark and achieve a best-in-the-world contract. They feel that this opportunity was squandered by the self-interested, greedy and weak (fearful) and that they are embarrassed and disgusted by it and that such an opportunity is unlikely to ever happen again. They feel the union acted foolishly and was adroitly outplayed by the company.

They feel that a NO vote would have resulted in the company offering more (some feel significantly more was possible) and that the chance of ending up in arbitration was low, and even if the pilots did end up in arbitration that the TA terms were safe and worthwhile gains were possible. This group feels that "arbitration" was a bogeyman and that ending in arbitration, even if it resulted in less than the TA terms was worth the risk.

This group is fractured by sub-groups. One who feels the TA terms were completely inadequate and another who feels there was enough value in the TA but it wasn't allocated properly; should have been less money for the seniors and more for the juniors or less in payrates and more in QoL.

The second group feels that through the confluence of events - external and internal; the political environment, pilot sentiment and other factors that the pilots had a rare (once in a lifetime) opportunity to reset the relationship, establish a new high-water mark and achieve a best-in-the-world contract. The second group feels (after taking some time to digest it and hear the that this explanations of the process) that this opportunity was adequately managed by the union leadership who took advice and counsel from internal and external experts in labour negotiation, finance, etc.

The second group felt that the chance of the company offering more after a NO vote was low, that the threat of ending up in arbitration was significant and the possibility of losing ground with reference to the previously negotiated TA terms was possible based on their experience with the uncertainty of the arbitration process in the past. They voted to accept the TA based on some combination of fear, self-interest and/or acceptance/respect for the assessment of the union leadership as to what were the achieveable contract gains.

None of this second group see the new contract terms as being the "World Class Contract" promised but generally accept the leadership's assessment of the situation as this being the best contract possible and view it as a significant improvement especially when the possible negatives of voting NO were considered.

The first group thinks the second group are idiots and/or greedy for accepting the first offer because more was possible in their view.
The second group thinks the first group is ignorant and/or reckless for voting NO because they didn't have an accurate understanding of the risks of doing so.

There. Are we done now?

[thepoors]

To summarize;

One group feels that through the confluence of events - external and internal; the political environment, pilot sentiment and other factors that the pilot group had a rare (once in a lifetime) opportunity to reset the relationship, establish a new high-water mark and achieve a best-in-the-world contract. They feel that this opportunity was squandered by the self-interested, greedy and weak (fearful) and that they are embarrassed and disgusted by it and that such an opportunity is unlikely to ever happen again. They feel the union acted foolishly and was adroitly outplayed by the company.

They feel that a NO vote would have resulted in the company offering more (some feel significantly more was possible) and that the chance of ending up in arbitration was low, and even if the pilots did end up in arbitration that the TA terms were safe and worthwhile gains were possible. This group feels that "arbitration" was a bogeyman and that ending in arbitration, even if it resulted in less than the TA terms was worth the risk.

This group is fractured by sub-groups. One who feels the TA terms were completely inadequate and another who feels there was enough value in the TA but it wasn't allocated properly; should have been less money for the seniors and more for the juniors or less in payrates and more in QoL.

The second group feels that through the confluence of events - external and internal; the political environment, pilot sentiment and other factors that the pilots had a rare (once in a lifetime) opportunity to reset the relationship, establish a new high-water mark and achieve a best-in-the-world contract. The second group feels (after taking some time to digest it and hear the that this explanations of the process) that this opportunity was adequately managed by the union leadership who took advice and counsel from internal and external experts in labour negotiation, finance, etc.

The second group felt that the chance of the company offering more after a NO vote was low, that the threat of ending up in arbitration was significant and the possibility of losing ground with reference to the previously negotiated TA terms was possible based on their experience with the uncertainty of the arbitration process in the past. They voted to accept the TA based on some combination of fear, self-interest and/or acceptance/respect for the assessment of the union leadership as to what were the achieveable contract gains.

None of this second group see the new contract terms as being the "World Class Contract" promised but generally accept the leadership's assessment of the situation as this being the best contract possible and view it as a significant improvement especially when the possible negatives of voting NO were considered.

The first group thinks the second group are idiots and/or greedy for accepting the first offer because more was possible in their view.
The second group thinks the first group is ignorant and/or reckless for voting NO because they didn't have an accurate understanding of the risks of doing so.

There. Are we done now?

Option 3:

Those who believe that the game was up as soon as this TA was presented. The yes/no squabbling was completely futile afterwards. ALPA was determined to push this through and was willing to undermine everything they had built up to that point. Unity, legitimacy, and trust be damned. It all went down the crapper.

This was a failure of the MEC by ignoring the (effectively unanimous) strike mandate they had from their membership and choosing to present a substandard TA before the company even felt anything resembling real labour leverage. We still don't have a good answer as to how/why this happened.

I maintain that everyone involved in this: MEC, NC, LECs need to be tossed out if ALPA is to be taken seriously again for the next round of negots. Their actions were beyond shameful and borderline treasonous.

[lownslow]

This was a failure of the MEC by ignoring the (effectively unanimous) strike mandate they had from their membership and choosing to present a substandard TA before the company even felt anything resembling real labour leverage.

What’s the difference in resolve or labour leverage between being unanimously approving of a strike and actually going on strike?

[thepoors]

This was a failure of the MEC by ignoring the (effectively unanimous) strike mandate they had from their membership and choosing to present a substandard TA before the company even felt anything resembling real labour leverage.

What’s the difference in resolve or labour leverage between being unanimously approving of a strike and actually going on strike?

Massive. Like I said, AC escaped this whole thing scott-free. A strike would have cost them tens of millions per day. Lots of leverage there.

[cjp]

Teamsters...rejects 70% raise offer.

Teamsters...and Allegiant pilots, reject 70%.

And they made more than pre-TA1 AC pilots, narrowbody Captains when coverting to CAD were same rates. FOs were already higher when converted.

Interesting to watch what happens.

Screenshot_20241111_154958_Chrome.jpg (367.67 KiB) Viewed 3097 times

Allegiant Air PAYSCALES
CAPTAIN PAY SCALE (Hourly)
Year
All
12 230
11 223
10 219
9 214
8 209
7 202
6 197
5 191
4 184
3 176
2 170
1 163
FIRST OFFICER PAY SCALE (Hourly)
Year
All
12 154
11 150
10 147
9 143
8 138
7 134
6 128
5 122
4 116
3 110
2 102
1 57

[BushCaddy]

I'd offer up a 4th option: Based on all the survey data that ALPA had, this offer met the minimums that the majority of the pilot group was willing to accept. If that was the case, they had no choice but to accept it and put it to a vote. Personally, this was the exact percentage increase that I said I'd be willing to accept, and I know many others that were in the same ballpark.

[Blueontop]

I'd offer up a 4th option: Based on all the survey data that ALPA had, this offer met the minimums that the majority of the pilot group was willing to accept. If that was the case, they had no choice but to accept it and put it to a vote. Personally, this was the exact percentage increase that I said I'd be willing to accept, and I know many others that were in the same ballpark.

Ok fine. If the bare minimum is all we were swinging for then mission accomplished. All that WCC crap was just to rally the proles. If the MEC really felt this was all that was necessary and too much pressure was on them to bring a vote to the members so be it. I can be fine with that. Up until the next point below.

What can’t be forgiven is the dereliction of duty they showed to the members they represented. By putting their fingers on the scale, they betrayed the very people they were supposed to advocate for, creating a sense of division and distrust. At a crucial, politically vulnerable moment, when unity and steadfast commitment were essential, they instead chose to weaken the group’s negotiating power and fracture its solidarity. This kind of leadership undermines the foundation of the union’s mission and jeopardizes future efforts to fight for the rights and welfare of its members.

The entire MEC needs to be recalled now and votes happen now that the deal is done so we can start preparing for the next fight.

This MEC cannot represent us again against the corporation.

[Justfer2day]

Blueontop
With respect:
1. Bare minimum would have been a 50%+1 ratification vote.
2. Not sure how long you have been at AC, but if you missed the TA1and then the 10 year framework roadshows, you can't imagine what "finger on the scales" looks like.
3. Given a 66% yes vote, it seems fairly unlikely that recall campaign would have anywhere near the political power for success

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

I'd offer up a 4th option: Based on all the survey data that ALPA had, this offer met the minimums that the majority of the pilot group was willing to accept. If that was the case, they had no choice but to accept it and put it to a vote. Personally, this was the exact percentage increase that I said I'd be willing to accept, and I know many others that were in the same ballpark.

You do realize you're not getting a bonus next spring right?

And that company is going for $800 million in share buybacks?

We both know your minimum was less. Very unlikely this "just met your threshold". Losing the bonus with minimal quality of life improvements made this not even close for me.

[thrust set]

Did you really think we were going to get a bonus ?

I’ll take my 330CA pay ( 381/hour + 17/hour Overseas ) over the meager profit share all day long. It’s hard to hear the same rhetoric from the same muppets crying over the contract they thought slipped through their finger tips…….ugh let’s give it a rest.
Call your union reps then call James and Harold from the Negotiating Committee and ask them to walk you through the last 72 hours.

What just happened to the Port workers ?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Did you really think we were going to get a bonus ?

I’ll take my 330CA pay ( 381/hour + 17/hour Overseas ) over the meager profit share all day long. It’s hard to hear the same rhetoric from the same muppets crying over the contract they thought slipped through their finger tips…….ugh let’s give it a rest.
Call your union reps then call James and Harold from the Negotiating Committee and ask them to walk you through the last 72 hours.

What just happened to the Port workers ?

Another binding arbitration story. No chance in hell the government would have let AC go past a single day on strike.

[Canadianpilot2024]

Key Differences Between Binding Arbitration and First Offer Selection:

1. Decision-Making Process:
• Binding Arbitration: The arbitrator can decide on a resolution that is somewhere between the parties’ proposals, crafting a compromise or custom resolution based on the facts and arguments presented.
• First Offer Selection: The arbitrator is forced to choose one side’s offer in its entirety, encouraging each party to make a reasonable proposal to avoid the risk of losing completely.
2. Impact on Parties’ Strategy:
• Binding Arbitration: Each side might take a more extreme position, knowing the arbitrator can find a middle ground.
• First Offer Selection: Each side is incentivized to make a fair offer, as the arbitrator will select one proposal in full rather than finding a compromise.
3. Likelihood of Settlement:
• Binding Arbitration: Parties may sometimes be less inclined to negotiate beforehand, knowing the arbitrator will craft a resolution.
• First Offer Selection: This method often leads to more realistic offers from both sides, as neither party wants to risk the arbitrator choosing the other’s offer if it seems more reasonable.

In summary, while binding arbitration gives the arbitrator full discretion, first offer selection puts more pressure on each party to be fair and strategic, knowing that the arbitrator will make an all-or-nothing decision.

[Canadianpilot2024]

“arbitration” isn’t a bad word, forced offer selection usually is though.

This is a good thing and arbitration will help find middle ground. Typically they just focus on dollar amounts and not QOL aspects but who knows how this will pan out.

This isn’t a bad thing for the port workers in my opinion and forces everyone back to the table.

Wish we had the same kind of fortitude and self respect to do the same for ourselves and colleagues in the industry… guess it’ll be interesting to see how this what if scenario pans out.

[PeakLeverage]

Did you really think we were going to get a bonus ?

I’ll take my 330CA pay ( 381/hour + 17/hour Overseas ) over the meager profit share all day long. It’s hard to hear the same rhetoric from the same muppets crying over the contract they thought slipped through their finger tips…….ugh let’s give it a rest.
Call your union reps then call James and Harold from the Negotiating Committee and ask them to walk you through the last 72 hours.

What just happened to the Port workers ?

The same two that pushed the amazing MOA and the pilots rejected at 80%?

Now they are to be trusted as experts?

[TheStig]

The Minister of Labour sending the Port Workers to binding arbitration shows that the Government would have intervened had there been a strike at AC. This validates the MEC's decision to let the negotiators work until the 11th hour, access the situation at that moment, and ultimately and put the TA to a vote.

I'm certain it wasn't the contract they had set out to achieve but at that point they had a difficult choice to make and the near certainty of Government intervention shows that they made the right call. If you think there was a realistic chance that an Arbitrator would have awarded the pilot group more than the 46% improvement in value over the previous collective agreement you're delusional.

[PeakLeverage]

The Minister of Labour sending the Port Workers to binding arbitration shows that the Government would have intervened had there been a strike at AC. This validates the MEC's decision to let the negotiators work until the 11th hour, access the situation at that moment, and ultimately and put the TA to a vote.

I'm certain it wasn't the contract they had set out to achieve but at that point they had a difficult choice to make and the near certainty of Government intervention shows that they made the right call. If you think there was a realistic chance that an Arbitrator would have awarded the pilot group more than the 46% improvement in value over the previous collective agreement you're delusional.

They sent the Port Workers to arbitration 8 days AFTER being on strike.

They were ON STRIKE causing $800 million dollars of damage A DAY.

Air Canada would cost the economy 10% of that. We capitaluated 3 days BEFORE the deadline.

Get your FACTS straight man.

I love all the confirmation bias fans looking so hard for validation of total capitulation

[737Drver]

Did you really think we were going to get a bonus ?

I’ll take my 330CA pay ( 381/hour + 17/hour Overseas ) over the meager profit share all day long. It’s hard to hear the same rhetoric from the same muppets crying over the contract they thought slipped through their finger tips…….ugh let’s give it a rest.
Call your union reps then call James and Harold from the Negotiating Committee and ask them to walk you through the last 72 hours.

What just happened to the Port workers ?

You do realize you can have BOTH right like...EVERYONE ELSE

You can get paid well AND have a bonus plan

Are all Air Canada pilots this fucking dumb?

[FNGYYZ]

Can someone honestly explain to me how the company announcing a share buyback program a week after the pilot contract worth a billion and how a much more costly strike with the Port Workers that went on for over a week isn't validation the MEC didn't completely settle too early??

[RAIM]

The Minister of Labour sending the Port Workers to binding arbitration shows that the Government would have intervened had there been a strike at AC. This validates the MEC's decision to let the negotiators work until the 11th hour, access the situation at that moment, and ultimately and put the TA to a vote.

I'm certain it wasn't the contract they had set out to achieve but at that point they had a difficult choice to make and the near certainty of Government intervention shows that they made the right call. If you think there was a realistic chance that an Arbitrator would have awarded the pilot group more than the 46% improvement in value over the previous collective agreement you're delusional.

Stig,

Can you explain to me how WestJet with only 2 rounds of bargaining, the first one being arbitrated, has almost the same pay now after making MORE than us as a low cost carrier.

THEN, they have better reserve and productivity rules?

How is that even possible??

Is arbitration really much worse and maybe the results are because WJ didn't practice the art of capitulation 3 days prior?

[TheStig]

Did you really think we were going to get a bonus ?

I’ll take my 330CA pay ( 381/hour + 17/hour Overseas ) over the meager profit share all day long. It’s hard to hear the same rhetoric from the same muppets crying over the contract they thought slipped through their finger tips…….ugh let’s give it a rest.
Call your union reps then call James and Harold from the Negotiating Committee and ask them to walk you through the last 72 hours.

What just happened to the Port workers ?

The same two that pushed the amazing MOA and the pilots rejected at 80%?

Now they are to be trusted as experts?

If you were actually on the property at the time you'd probably recall that they didn't push that MOA at all, the MEC Chair tried to justify it to the group and was replaced by the MEC for doing so with the current Chair. It was an easy no vote with meager gains and I'm glad that the pilot group actually showed the company it could vote 'no'. However, it would have reduced flat pay to 2 years and removed that as an item before entering negotiations..

The NC works as an instrument of the MEC, they don't sell or push anything but they do explain why the language ends up written the way it is. Right now the NC members that have formed the JIC are doing the important work in the union by making sure that the company doesn't 're-interpret' any grey areas of the language. The intent of the language does matter, as does the precedence of what is established over the coming months. Pilot calling for the immediate removal of the MEC and NC need to realise that continuity is important at this point to ensure that the managers who get paid full time to find 'savings' in the CA can't take advantage of any internal union chaos.

[CPU2000]

Did you really think we were going to get a bonus ?

I’ll take my 330CA pay ( 381/hour + 17/hour Overseas ) over the meager profit share all day long. It’s hard to hear the same rhetoric from the same muppets crying over the contract they thought slipped through their finger tips…….ugh let’s give it a rest.
Call your union reps then call James and Harold from the Negotiating Committee and ask them to walk you through the last 72 hours.

What just happened to the Port workers ?

The same two that pushed the amazing MOA and the pilots rejected at 80%?

Now they are to be trusted as experts?

If you were actually on the property at the time you'd probably recall that they didn't push that MOA at all, the MEC Chair tried to justify it to the group and was replaced by the MEC for doing so with the current Chair. It was an easy no vote with meager gains and I'm glad that the pilot group actually showed the company it could vote 'no'. However, it would have reduced flat pay to 2 years and removed that as an item before entering negotiations..

The NC works as an instrument of the MEC, they don't sell or push anything but they do explain why the language ends up written the way it is. Right now the NC members that have formed the JIC are doing the important work in the union by making sure that the company doesn't 're-interpret' any grey areas of the language. The intent of the language does matter, as does the precedence of what is established over the coming months. Pilot calling for the immediate removal of the MEC and NC need to realise that continuity is important at this point to ensure that the managers who get paid full time to find 'savings' in the CA can't take advantage of any internal union chaos.

I believe this is what you call "revisionist history"

This is total bullshit. They literally ran how many webinars, newsletters and townhalls to push it.

Wow Stig...are you Harold or James??

[Montroyal]

Did you really think we were going to get a bonus ?

I’ll take my 330CA pay ( 381/hour + 17/hour Overseas ) over the meager profit share all day long. It’s hard to hear the same rhetoric from the same muppets crying over the contract they thought slipped through their finger tips…….ugh let’s give it a rest.
Call your union reps then call James and Harold from the Negotiating Committee and ask them to walk you through the last 72 hours.

What just happened to the Port workers ?

You do realize you can have BOTH right like...EVERYONE ELSE

You can get paid well AND have a bonus plan

Are all Air Canada pilots this fucking dumb?

Long story short...not all...just some...pilots who brag about their pay online while having the worst productivity rules in the business are particularly retarded.

And the complete ignorance to having a bonus plan and a good pay is a possibility like every other airline group is the cherry on top

[thepoors]

The Minister of Labour sending the Port Workers to binding arbitration shows that the Government would have intervened had there been a strike at AC. This validates the MEC's decision to let the negotiators work until the 11th hour, access the situation at that moment, and ultimately and put the TA to a vote.

I'm certain it wasn't the contract they had set out to achieve but at that point they had a difficult choice to make and the near certainty of Government intervention shows that they made the right call. If you think there was a realistic chance that an Arbitrator would have awarded the pilot group more than the 46% improvement in value over the previous collective agreement you're delusional.

They sent the Port Workers to arbitration 8 days AFTER being on strike.

They were ON STRIKE causing $800 million dollars of damage A DAY.

Air Canada would cost the economy 10% of that. We capitaluated 3 days BEFORE the deadline.

Get your FACTS straight man.

I love all the confirmation bias fans looking so hard for validation of total capitulation

Exactly this. The company never felt ANY pain. They cancelled less than a handful of flights. Leverage was never used, it was thrown away.

That's why this MEC needs to burn.

[Montroyal]

Can someone honestly explain to me how the company announcing a share buyback program a week after the pilot contract worth a billion and how a much more costly strike with the Port Workers that went on for over a week isn't validation the MEC didn't completely settle too early??

You can't.

Pilots just read headlines about arbitration without the context to rationalize their plight

They are choosing to not take note of the share buyback program. It's called selective attention.

Simply...it is never an Air Canada Pilot's fault for their standing in comparing contracts. Just endless excuses

[Blueontop]

Blueontop
With respect:
1. Bare minimum would have been a 50%+1 ratification vote.
2. Not sure how long you have been at AC, but if you missed the TA1and then the 10 year framework roadshows, you can't imagine what "finger on the scales" looks like.
3. Given a 66% yes vote, it seems fairly unlikely that recall campaign would have anywhere near the political power for success

With respect:

I would argue and most would agree that a 66% yes vote was not an accurate representation because of my previously stated reason of the MEC abandoning the membership and putting their fingers on the scale. Had they just kept silent or publicly stated they would go back and fight again in the result of a no vote the pass would have been far lower. Perhaps hovering around a 50%ish level or even not even passing at all.