Dominoes...|/

[Localizer]

You are right. the political minefield and unfair ACPPA legislation that only Air Canada have to operate under are not fair.

Air Canada is the only airline and possibly the only private company in the country that has to do business as mandated by the federal government in a completely political Act that exists to please Quebec. Air Canada has never taken a cash gift from the federal government, quite the opposite in fact as they are a cash cow that the government feeds off and uses for their own political purposes to the expense of stakeholders.

I’m under no delusion that the world is an unfair place, the claim of fairness wasn’t made by me. I just find it rich that employees of that company would shit on another and play the “fairness” card when they benefited from long history built on taxpayer dollars. I’m not denying it’s a private company today, but to deny its past is silly.

Your argument isn't correct though. Sure, 40 years ago AC was a crown corporation and all the government does is waste money in every one of their departments, surely AC as a crown corporation was no different. But then the government sold it off and since it was privatized there haven't been any bailouts. Your perception is wrong.

And as you've exposed, AC is in fact hamstrung by all the baggage that the government dumped on it and continues to dump on it.

From the crown era bloat and bureaucracy, to the retirees with pensions and benefits that outnumber active employees, then there's all the politics and the special rules and restrictions and extra costs that no other airline has to deal with.

I'm not shitting on your company. But your assertions are incorrect and irrelevant.

Nobody is talking about bailouts, my premise is correct by your own admission, bureaucracy and bloat. You’re not going to convince anyone that taxpayers were made whole by the sale, nor would you expect them to be, but it doesn’t change the fact the company’s foundation is built on taxpayer dollars.

My assertions are irrelevant because you don’t like the emotional response it triggers. Tough ..

[Localizer]

Has any other airline borrowed nearly a billion dollars from the government and not paid it back?

AC, AT, Sunwing, Porter took “loans” during Covid, AC received $1.2 billion to refund pax, as far as I understand today nobody has fully paid back those loans. WestJet is required to pay Sunwing’s loan back as part of the deal, no idea whether that’s happened or not.

It takes 30 secs of google, instead of saying as far as I know!
https://globalnews.ca/news/8386386/air- ... -covid-19/
Air Canada is pulling out of from the federal government’s $5.375 billion aid program as its business rebounds from the COVID-19 pandemic.


The company has used the aid package to refund customers’ non-refundable tickets, the airline said Friday. Out of the total aid available, $3.975 billion was not used.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busines ... ment-loan/

Air Canada AC-T +1.90%increase
has repaid $462-million it borrowed from the Canadian government to buy planes during the pandemic, as Canada’s largest airline shores up its balance sheet amid strong demand for travel

Maybe you should take longer than 30 seconds …

https://www.ceefc-cfuec.ca/approved-loans/

As I stated, they have a loan for just over $1.2 billion that’s outstanding.

The second article you posted is a loan they had with Economic Development Canada, totally a separate thing.

[altiplano]

Every Canadian business that took the Covid loans including the LEEF loans has had to pay them back with interest. I have friends whose business was decimated during covid and then crushed when the loans were called in.

The fare repayment loans are a political animal and all the airlines have them and are treated the same with regards to interest and repayment terms. Look at the differentiation in your link - loan vs. voucher facility. AC has zero in loans. The government forced airlines to refund people with non refundable tickets that chose not to show up for their flights as the pandemic took hold, that's the voucher facility.

People with non-refundable tickets choose not to travel all the time and for all kinds of valid reasons beyond their control, weather, civil unrest, health... but they should have bought a refundable ticket, there aren't entitled to a refund. But the Liberals used this wedge, and forced the airlines to take the low of interest credit vouchers to do the fare repayment as they called the election in 2021 hoping to go buy off enough Canadians to come back with a majority.

Air Canada bureaucracy and bloat are it's own problems though, baggage left over from it's history and the fact that the government has it's thumb constantly in it for political purposes. Air Canada carries that weight and it drags on it's economic performance, it's employees, and it's shareholders, it's not paid for by the government.

[Localizer]

Every Canadian business that took the Covid loans including the LEEF loans has had to pay them back with interest. I have friends whose business was decimated during covid and then crushed when the loans were called in.

The fare repayment loans are a political animal and all the airlines have them and are treated the same with regards to interest and repayment terms. Look at the differentiation in your link - loan vs. voucher facility. AC has zero in loans. The government forced airlines to refund people with non refundable tickets that chose not to show up for their flights as the pandemic took hold, that's the voucher facility.

People with non-refundable tickets choose not to travel all the time and for all kinds of valid reasons beyond their control, weather, civil unrest, health... but they should have bought a refundable ticket, there aren't entitled to a refund. But the Liberals used this wedge, and forced the airlines to take the low of interest credit vouchers to do the fare repayment as they called the election in 2021 hoping to go buy off enough Canadians to come back with a majority.

Air Canada bureaucracy and bloat are it's own problems though, baggage left over from it's history and the fact that the government has it's thumb constantly in it for political purposes. Air Canada carries that weight and it drags on it's economic performance, it's employees, and it's shareholders, it's not paid for by the government.

The voucher facilities are very much a loan with an interest rate, spare us the political spin.

[cdnavater]

Good luck, hope you come out of this, take care!

[altiplano]

Every Canadian business that took the Covid loans including the LEEF loans has had to pay them back with interest. I have friends whose business was decimated during covid and then crushed when the loans were called in.

The fare repayment loans are a political animal and all the airlines have them and are treated the same with regards to interest and repayment terms. Look at the differentiation in your link - loan vs. voucher facility. AC has zero in loans. The government forced airlines to refund people with non refundable tickets that chose not to show up for their flights as the pandemic took hold, that's the voucher facility.

People with non-refundable tickets choose not to travel all the time and for all kinds of valid reasons beyond their control, weather, civil unrest, health... but they should have bought a refundable ticket, there aren't entitled to a refund. But the Liberals used this wedge, and forced the airlines to take the low of interest credit vouchers to do the fare repayment as they called the election in 2021 hoping to go buy off enough Canadians to come back with a majority.

Air Canada bureaucracy and bloat are it's own problems though, baggage left over from it's history and the fact that the government has it's thumb constantly in it for political purposes. Air Canada carries that weight and it drags on it's economic performance, it's employees, and it's shareholders, it's not paid for by the government.

The voucher facilities are very much a loan with an interest rate, spare us the political spin.

And that's what I called them "fare repayment loans' - but it was devised to repay a debt that wasn't even theirs. It is was to repay a political plan that the government imposed on them for their own benefit seeking re election as I described.

And the fact is that all airlines in this country used these loans to repay non-refundable fares to no shows

But look at the line for "Loan amount drawn" - Air Canada - NIL.

That's the covid bailout loan that Transat is having an issue with terms.

The fact is that every loan up until now that AC took, it has repaid with interest.

[Localizer]

Good luck, hope you come out of this, take care!

[cdnavater]

Good luck, hope you come out of this, take care!

Ok, how about screw you and welcome to the bottom of someone’s list, better!?

[Tbayer2021]

Good luck, hope you come out of this, take care!

Ok, how about screw you and welcome to the bottom of someone’s list, better!?

I'm curious. In the history of mergers, purchases, integrations, whatever we want to call them. Has any group ever been awarded bottom of the list in Canada?

[Localizer]

Ok, how about screw you and welcome to the bottom of someone’s list, better!?

I'm curious. In the history of mergers, purchases, integrations, whatever we want to call them. Has any group ever been awarded bottom of the list in Canada?

It’s under section 3 of “A Child’s Guide to Airline Mergers”.

It’s never happened.

[fish4life]

The Sunwing loan was paid, in fact the government used the fact it might not get paid as reasoning for approving that merger.

https://www.ceefc-cfuec.ca/may-1-2023-announcement/

Like I said AT needs to either stand on its own 2 feet or the other airlines should get the same proportional amount of cash that AT gets.

[cdnavater]

Ok, how about screw you and welcome to the bottom of someone’s list, better!?

I'm curious. In the history of mergers, purchases, integrations, whatever we want to call them. Has any group ever been awarded bottom of the list in Canada?

It’s under section 3 of “A Child’s Guide to Airline Mergers”.

It’s never happened.

No, I was wishing you good luck with whatever happens, I don’t wish any pilot a company failure but when you’re a complete dick, I say screw you and when your company fails, welcome to the bottom of the list at whoever hires you!
Everyone paid back or is paying back their loans, you seem to think it’s ok for your company to borrow 800 plus million, burn through it and not pay it back, why because Air Canada was a crown company in 1988. How friggen ridiculous is that, around the time your company started AC was privatized and came out with a billion in debt, was sold to finance a fleet renewal and borrowed the rest, not tax payer money. What ever happened before that is irrelevant to 36 years later when your company borrowed this money!
If it’s not paid back, it’s taxpayers footing the bill, no guarantee Transat can even go forward as a concern without this loan as they still owe other creditors and couldn’t make money when everyone else is literally raking it in.
The write off is 176k per employee, not exactly good use of tax payer money and who friggen cares about other government waste, it’s completely egoistic to think your company should be saved, what are you willing to do to save your company? Will you take a significant pay cut to help?
If Transat fails, AC will pick up the slack and you could apply there, maybe they hire you but you should probably get rid of that chip on your shoulder before the interview.
The other thing about not repaying this loan, perhaps the next company who needs the help will have a much steeper hill to climb to qualify, clearly the loan criterion was not stringent enough!
Last year, I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with Jazz, I was literally questioning if I would apply elsewhere or just take whatever pension I had and supplement my income with something outside of aviation, I never once thought, ohhh, the government should save my job!!!

[CaptDukeNukem]

I'm curious. In the history of mergers, purchases, integrations, whatever we want to call them. Has any group ever been awarded bottom of the list in Canada?

It’s under section 3 of “A Child’s Guide to Airline Mergers”.

It’s never happened.

No, I was wishing you good luck with whatever happens, I don’t wish any pilot a company failure but when you’re a complete dick, I say screw you and when your company fails, welcome to the bottom of the list at whoever hires you!
Everyone paid back or is paying back their loans, you seem to think it’s ok for your company to borrow 800 plus million, burn through it and not pay it back, why because Air Canada was a crown company in 1988. How friggen ridiculous is that, around the time your company started AC was privatized and came out with a billion in debt, was sold to finance a fleet renewal and borrowed the rest, not tax payer money. What ever happened before that is irrelevant to 36 years later when your company borrowed this money!
If it’s not paid back, it’s taxpayers footing the bill, no guarantee Transat can even go forward as a concern without this loan as they still owe other creditors and couldn’t make money when everyone else is literally raking it in.
The write off is 176k per employee, not exactly good use of tax payer money and who friggen cares about other government waste, it’s completely egoistic to think your company should be saved, what are you willing to do to save your company? Will you take a significant pay cut to help?
If Transat fails, AC will pick up the slack and you could apply there, maybe they hire you but you should probably get rid of that chip on your shoulder before the interview.
The other thing about not repaying this loan, perhaps the next company who needs the help will have a much steeper hill to climb to qualify, clearly the loan criterion was not stringent enough!
Last year, I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with Jazz, I was literally questioning if I would apply elsewhere or just take whatever pension I had and supplement my income with something outside of aviation, I never once thought, ohhh, the government should save my job!!!

Dude. I literally joined avcanada because your posts are absolute nonsense sometimes. Here I am, 1000+posts later,

I’m also very opinionated.
I’m proposing a Truce between you and me where we go and respond to idiotic arguments and comments.m


F@ck it, we can call it the DAPA, dukeavaterpilotassociation

[Localizer]

I'm curious. In the history of mergers, purchases, integrations, whatever we want to call them. Has any group ever been awarded bottom of the list in Canada?

It’s under section 3 of “A Child’s Guide to Airline Mergers”.

It’s never happened.

No, I was wishing you good luck with whatever happens, I don’t wish any pilot a company failure but when you’re a complete dick, I say screw you and when your company fails, welcome to the bottom of the list at whoever hires you!
Everyone paid back or is paying back their loans, you seem to think it’s ok for your company to borrow 800 plus million, burn through it and not pay it back, why because Air Canada was a crown company in 1988. How friggen ridiculous is that, around the time your company started AC was privatized and came out with a billion in debt, was sold to finance a fleet renewal and borrowed the rest, not tax payer money. What ever happened before that is irrelevant to 36 years later when your company borrowed this money!
If it’s not paid back, it’s taxpayers footing the bill, no guarantee Transat can even go forward as a concern without this loan as they still owe other creditors and couldn’t make money when everyone else is literally raking it in.
The write off is 176k per employee, not exactly good use of tax payer money and who friggen cares about other government waste, it’s completely egoistic to think your company should be saved, what are you willing to do to save your company? Will you take a significant pay cut to help?
If Transat fails, AC will pick up the slack and you could apply there, maybe they hire you but you should probably get rid of that chip on your shoulder before the interview.
The other thing about not repaying this loan, perhaps the next company who needs the help will have a much steeper hill to climb to qualify, clearly the loan criterion was not stringent enough!
Last year, I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with Jazz, I was literally questioning if I would apply elsewhere or just take whatever pension I had and supplement my income with something outside of aviation, I never once thought, ohhh, the government should save my job!!!

No offence, you will be anyway, but you sound a little unhinged in your rambling. You make a lot of assumptions, can you point to where I said the loans shouldn’t be paid back? I did reference in another thread that many countries provided support without strings, I also referenced opening up foreign investment beyond 49%.

Corporate aid isn’t new in Canada, automakers had billions forgiven over the years, and now we are subsidizing them further for new EV plants. Worse, nobody cares that taxpayers will be out billions of dollars! It’s only bad when it involves airlines, think about this, despite Air Canada never taking a “bailout” how many times have you heard it? A lot I bet … there is an anti airline mentality in this country.

With the above in mind you made an analysis that the AT’s debt would equate to $176K per employee. That’s a little high by my math, but we will go with it. The Volkswagen EV plant in St Thomas will provide 3000 jobs on a 20 year, $20 billion dollar investment, that’s $330K per employee. Is that good use of taxpayer money when the tech will evolve and most likely change in the next decade?

[cdnavater]

It’s under section 3 of “A Child’s Guide to Airline Mergers”.

It’s never happened.

No, I was wishing you good luck with whatever happens, I don’t wish any pilot a company failure but when you’re a complete dick, I say screw you and when your company fails, welcome to the bottom of the list at whoever hires you!
Everyone paid back or is paying back their loans, you seem to think it’s ok for your company to borrow 800 plus million, burn through it and not pay it back, why because Air Canada was a crown company in 1988. How friggen ridiculous is that, around the time your company started AC was privatized and came out with a billion in debt, was sold to finance a fleet renewal and borrowed the rest, not tax payer money. What ever happened before that is irrelevant to 36 years later when your company borrowed this money!
If it’s not paid back, it’s taxpayers footing the bill, no guarantee Transat can even go forward as a concern without this loan as they still owe other creditors and couldn’t make money when everyone else is literally raking it in.
The write off is 176k per employee, not exactly good use of tax payer money and who friggen cares about other government waste, it’s completely egoistic to think your company should be saved, what are you willing to do to save your company? Will you take a significant pay cut to help?
If Transat fails, AC will pick up the slack and you could apply there, maybe they hire you but you should probably get rid of that chip on your shoulder before the interview.
The other thing about not repaying this loan, perhaps the next company who needs the help will have a much steeper hill to climb to qualify, clearly the loan criterion was not stringent enough!
Last year, I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with Jazz, I was literally questioning if I would apply elsewhere or just take whatever pension I had and supplement my income with something outside of aviation, I never once thought, ohhh, the government should save my job!!!

Dude. I literally joined avcanada because your posts are absolute nonsense sometimes. Here I am, 1000+posts later,

I’m also very opinionated.
I’m proposing a Truce between you and me where we go and respond to idiotic arguments and comments.m


F@ck it, we can call it the DAPA, dukeavaterpilotassociation

Ok, Truce. Lol but I will miss it sometimes!

[cdnavater]

It’s under section 3 of “A Child’s Guide to Airline Mergers”.

It’s never happened.

No, I was wishing you good luck with whatever happens, I don’t wish any pilot a company failure but when you’re a complete dick, I say screw you and when your company fails, welcome to the bottom of the list at whoever hires you!
Everyone paid back or is paying back their loans, you seem to think it’s ok for your company to borrow 800 plus million, burn through it and not pay it back, why because Air Canada was a crown company in 1988. How friggen ridiculous is that, around the time your company started AC was privatized and came out with a billion in debt, was sold to finance a fleet renewal and borrowed the rest, not tax payer money. What ever happened before that is irrelevant to 36 years later when your company borrowed this money!
If it’s not paid back, it’s taxpayers footing the bill, no guarantee Transat can even go forward as a concern without this loan as they still owe other creditors and couldn’t make money when everyone else is literally raking it in.
The write off is 176k per employee, not exactly good use of tax payer money and who friggen cares about other government waste, it’s completely egoistic to think your company should be saved, what are you willing to do to save your company? Will you take a significant pay cut to help?
If Transat fails, AC will pick up the slack and you could apply there, maybe they hire you but you should probably get rid of that chip on your shoulder before the interview.
The other thing about not repaying this loan, perhaps the next company who needs the help will have a much steeper hill to climb to qualify, clearly the loan criterion was not stringent enough!
Last year, I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with Jazz, I was literally questioning if I would apply elsewhere or just take whatever pension I had and supplement my income with something outside of aviation, I never once thought, ohhh, the government should save my job!!!

No offence, you will be anyway, but you sound a little unhinged in your rambling. You make a lot of assumptions, can you point to where I said the loans shouldn’t be paid back? I did reference in another thread that many countries provided support without strings, I also referenced opening up foreign investment beyond 49%.

Corporate aid isn’t new in Canada, automakers had billions forgiven over the years, and now we are subsidizing them further for new EV plants. Worse, nobody cares that taxpayers will be out billions of dollars! It’s only bad when it involves airlines, think about this, despite Air Canada never taking a “bailout” how many times have you heard it? A lot I bet … there is an anti airline mentality in this country.

With the above in mind you made an analysis that the AT’s debt would equate to $176K per employee. That’s a little high by my math, but we will go with it. The Volkswagen EV plant in St Thomas will provide 3000 jobs on a 20 year, $20 billion dollar investment, that’s $330K per employee. Is that good use of taxpayer money when the tech will evolve and most likely change in the next decade?

I did mention government waste earlier, the calculator I used says 880 million divided by 5000 is 176,000.
20 billion divided by 3000 says 6.66 million per job, lord Jesus, I would much rather they put that money towards increasing oil refineries in Canada and become self sufficient. Then would could slap a bunch of tariffs on refined fuel going to the US, @#$! Trump but I digress.

Regarding whether or not you said the loans should be forgiven doesn’t matter at this point because it was mentioned earlier in the thread and then I mentioned it should be fair, to which you responded about whether or not AC has had a helping hand nearly 40 years ago. This made it appear as though you support the earlier mentioned loan forgiveness.
:edited for clarity.
Fair assessment of what’s transpired here, yes or no!

[Localizer]

I’m sorry …. I need that last part translated. It’s word salad .. I’m feeling a little unburdened by what has been. If you know what I mean.

[cdnavater]

I’m sorry …. I need that last part translated. It’s word salad .. I’m feeling a little unburdened by what has been. If you know what I mean.

Translated, edited as Altiplano pointed out, it was harsh. I’m done with this thread, I wish Transat pilots a strong recovery!

[altiplano]

That's harsh.

What's wrong with you guys?

[Localizer]

[quote=Localizer post_id=<a href="tel:1325208">1325208</a> time=<a href="tel:1731625572">1731625572</a> user_id=2924]
I’m sorry …. I need that last part translated. It’s word salad .. I’m feeling a little unburdened by what has been. If you know what I mean.

Translated, edited as Altiplano pointed out, it was harsh. I’m done with this thread, I wish Transat pilots a strong recovery!
[/quote]

That's harsh.

What's wrong with you guys?

Honestly, I’m not sure what your question was, that was the point. What was “harsh”?

[altiplano]

It was edited out so I won't revisit it.

I love bullshitting about the industry, but attacking each other or wishing poorly on each other is stupid.

[thepoors]

If Transat fails, AC will pick up the slack and you could apply there, maybe they hire you but you should probably get rid of that chip on your shoulder before the interview.

Don't you know that Transat is the greatest company to ever exist in the belle province of Quebeckistan and everyone who has the privilege of working there wakes up every day feeling like they won the lottery? And anyone who has anything other than praise for them is just a jealous salty pfo?

There's no point arguing with these morons who speak frog on the radio. Not much going on between the ears.

[LongBranch]

If Transat fails, AC will pick up the slack and you could apply there, maybe they hire you but you should probably get rid of that chip on your shoulder before the interview.

Don't you know that Transat is the greatest company to ever exist in the belle province of Quebeckistan and everyone who has the privilege of working there wakes up every day feeling like they won the lottery? And anyone who has anything other than praise for them is just a jealous salty pfo?

There's no point arguing with these morons who speak frog on the radio. Not much going on between the ears.

Bro u mad? You sound mad? You think anywhere in Canada is better lol, where all in the same pile of shit.

[thepoors]

where all in the same pile of shit.

No argument there

[red_shiny_ribbon]

If Transat fails, AC will pick up the slack and you could apply there, maybe they hire you but you should probably get rid of that chip on your shoulder before the interview.

Don't you know that Transat is the greatest company to ever exist in the belle province of Quebeckistan and everyone who has the privilege of working there wakes up every day feeling like they won the lottery? And anyone who has anything other than praise for them is just a jealous salty pfo?

There's no point arguing with these morons who speak frog on the radio. Not much going on between the ears.

Bro u mad? You sound mad? You think anywhere in Canada is better lol, where all in the same pile of shit.

He was quite vocal calling WJ pilots cucks during AC negotiations. He's clearly still mad he was cucked harder than them.