It’s Time - Back on track

[goingnowherefast]

No, I. Pretty sure they separated the companies due to licensing issues, not to create a situation like WJ/Encore or dare I say AC/Jazz.
Remember when Jazz was wholly(100%) owned by AC, I do!

Dashport/Porter seems more like a AC/Rouge type arrangement. Albeit on a smaller scale. Two AOCs, one seniority list.

The intent behind it may be different, but at the end of the day they're the same. There are two lists and a "one-list" of sorts. Each Q400 operator flies flights for the mainline operator. They are both wholly owned by another company that also owns the mainline airline.

Code: Select all

WestJet

Onex
-> WestJet Airlines (sells tickets, operates flights for WestJet Airlines)
-> WestJet Encore (operates flights for WestJet Airlines)

Porter Aviation Holdings
-> Porter Airlines Canada Limited (sells tickets under Porter Airlines, operates flights for PACL)
-> Porter Airlines International (operates flights for PACL)

And Rouge operates flights for Air Canada. How the tickets are sold is irrelevant to common employer status and seniority lists. Buy a ticket on AC to JNB, and you'll probably end up on a United or Lufthansa flight.

Porter might have 2 AOCs, but it's the same pilot group on the same seniority list flying under both AOCs. I can't imagine why anyone would want to change that. In fact, I hear more rumors about merging operations under 1 AOC.

[CaptDukeNukem]

We are happy to share that we will be hosting our second ALPA information session. To join, reach out to one of our many organizing committee members, or, contact us via our website.

In solidarity,
www.PorterPilotsForChange.ca

Your email/meeting minutes is absolute garbage. You guys already talking like lawyers. I’m sure some 24 year old kid who doesn’t know anything about unions will be impressed by you, but none of what you’ve answered in your “meeting minutes” is actually worth much more than the paper it’s written on.

The Q&A portion is absolutely ridiculous. You don’t answer a single thing. Dodging bullets. I must have missed the “how politicians talk” training section on my annual ground school

If I was actually to be impressed by this and made to change my mind, you’ve failed miserably. I’ll wait, thank you very much.

You want votes? Do better

[TPP]

We are happy to share that we will be hosting our second ALPA information session. To join, reach out to one of our many organizing committee members, or, contact us via our website.

In solidarity,
www.PorterPilotsForChange.ca

Your email/meeting minutes is absolute garbage. You guys already talking like lawyers. I’m sure some 24 year old kid who doesn’t know anything about unions will be impressed by you, but none of what you’ve answered in your “meeting minutes” is actually worth much more than the paper it’s written on.

The Q&A portion is absolutely ridiculous. You don’t answer a single thing. Dodging bullets. I must have missed the “how politicians talk” training section on my annual ground school

If I was actually to be impressed by this and made to change my mind, you’ve failed miserably. I’ll wait, thank you very much.

You want votes? Do better

The power of ALPAs contracts speak for themselves.

If you can show me where the great flexibility of the FOAG gives us better work rules, benefits, pension or pay rates than the WJ or AC CBAs we all ears.

Porter will do what Porter always does. Increases pay rates, fall short on every other segment of other Airlines CBAs.

And the kicker is at anytime they can pull back even those gains that they gave us via an infamous Friday bulletin.

Things are gonna slow down eventually, we as a collective need working conditions backed by a legal contract, not written in pencil.

[braaap Braap]

We are happy to share that we will be hosting our second ALPA information session. To join, reach out to one of our many organizing committee members, or, contact us via our website.

In solidarity,
www.PorterPilotsForChange.ca

Your email/meeting minutes is absolute garbage. You guys already talking like lawyers. I’m sure some 24 year old kid who doesn’t know anything about unions will be impressed by you, but none of what you’ve answered in your “meeting minutes” is actually worth much more than the paper it’s written on.

The Q&A portion is absolutely ridiculous. You don’t answer a single thing. Dodging bullets. I must have missed the “how politicians talk” training section on my annual ground school

If I was actually to be impressed by this and made to change my mind, you’ve failed miserably. I’ll wait, thank you very much.

You want votes? Do better

Woah I think this is the spiciest DukeNukem I've seen on here before. You don't even talk this way to CDN.

You keep mentioning people not understanding how unions work and yet you seem to be the most ignorant of them all. How would a group of people with a vision to represent a pilot group (Porter Pilots for Change) possibly be able to speak in absolutes when they don't have a mandate from the group they're trying to represent? Same thing goes for the ALPA leadership that was there. Not to mention having 0 idea on how the company would react in negotiations. You think ALPA's going to wave a magic wand and force their will on us? If so, why is there such variety in contracts at the other ALPA pilot groups?

It's an 18 page summary with supplemental context added in, I can certainly appreciate the effort that went into it. I'm sure you voiced some constructive feedback to their feedback form? Nah too busy sprinkling your comments on every thread on this site.

Your whole "I'll wait" and "STawP PlZ! Ma BeNcHMaRK iS aLMosT HErE!" is so naive and funny. Do you not think they're aware?! Has it ever crossed your mind that people sticking their necks out and beating an "Its Time" drum combined with higher attrition will motivate the company to benchmark their brains out?

Go ahead, wait till the cows come home. Wait until its too late and your pay is cut at the drop of a hat, or you're laid off with 2 days notice, or your seniority is dismissed (transfers for D8, PBS bidding for E2), or your flying is sent off to Swoop 2.0, or you're thrown into a merger & acquisition situation, or Porter IPOs and your beloved leaders run off into the sunset to enjoy their $$$$ while you get thrown to the wall st wolves. I know you've been here for a bit at this point and its been fun and exciting getting wasted on Benchmark Bellinis™, but I don't see how you can look around at other people's situations, historical and present, inside Porter and out, and think we're immune to the bullshit antics of this industry.

[carnie]

Preach brother! So true.

[Hangry]

Watching Porter pilots simp for the company a la WJ back in the day is hilarious and pathetic.

We’re different! It’s going to be different for us! Very strange.

Goood luck!

[cdnavater]

Watching Porter pilots simp for the company a la WJ back in the day is hilarious and pathetic.

We’re different! It’s going to be different for us! Very strange.

Goood luck!

Yep, history is always a valuable lesson, if you choose to learn from it!

[CaptDukeNukem]

Watching Porter pilots simp for the company a la WJ back in the day is hilarious and pathetic.

We’re different! It’s going to be different for us! Very strange.

Goood luck!

You can dish it out to me, it’s fine I can take it.

It took over 20 years for WestJet to sign on with ALPA. Not saying we wait that long. so with an new operation that is very much going full tilt and benchmarking coming in the next few months, are you actually gonna just blindly side with signing up for something without hearing out what is being offered because you’re angry about a couple things that may actually get changed. Again, wait and see then decide. Today is not the day to lock up the FOAG for the better part of two years while we get things in order.

Call me a simp, no problem. Maybe i am in your eyes. But I’m allowed to have my opinion about this drive that is being done and I think it’s foolish at this present time.

[cdnavater]

Watching Porter pilots simp for the company a la WJ back in the day is hilarious and pathetic.

We’re different! It’s going to be different for us! Very strange.

Goood luck!

You can dish it out to me, it’s fine I can take it.

It took over 20 years for WestJet to sign on with ALPA. Not saying we wait that long. so with an new operation that is very much going full tilt and benchmarking coming in the next few months, are you actually gonna just blindly side with signing up for something without hearing out what is being offered because you’re angry about a couple things that may actually get changed. Again, wait and see then decide. Today is not the day to lock up the FOAG for the better part of two years while we get things in order.

Call me a simp, no problem. Maybe i am in your eyes. But I’m allowed to have my opinion about this drive that is being done and I think it’s foolish at this present time.

Is there actually a union drive or just information sessions?
Is there cards being passed around for signing?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Watching Porter pilots simp for the company a la WJ back in the day is hilarious and pathetic.

We’re different! It’s going to be different for us! Very strange.

Goood luck!

You can dish it out to me, it’s fine I can take it.

It took over 20 years for WestJet to sign on with ALPA. Not saying we wait that long. so with an new operation that is very much going full tilt and benchmarking coming in the next few months, are you actually gonna just blindly side with signing up for something without hearing out what is being offered because you’re angry about a couple things that may actually get changed. Again, wait and see then decide. Today is not the day to lock up the FOAG for the better part of two years while we get things in order.

Call me a simp, no problem. Maybe i am in your eyes. But I’m allowed to have my opinion about this drive that is being done and I think it’s foolish at this present time.

Is there actually a union drive or just information sessions?
Is there cards being passed around for signing?

Good question. I don’t think it’s at the card stage, but frankly I won’t sign one till I see the benchmark. I totally agree with info sessions. But again, in my opinion, now is not the time to make a decision.

[cjp]

You can dish it out to me, it’s fine I can take it.

It took over 20 years for WestJet to sign on with ALPA. Not saying we wait that long. so with an new operation that is very much going full tilt and benchmarking coming in the next few months, are you actually gonna just blindly side with signing up for something without hearing out what is being offered because you’re angry about a couple things that may actually get changed. Again, wait and see then decide. Today is not the day to lock up the FOAG for the better part of two years while we get things in order.

Call me a simp, no problem. Maybe i am in your eyes. But I’m allowed to have my opinion about this drive that is being done and I think it’s foolish at this present time.

Is there actually a union drive or just information sessions?
Is there cards being passed around for signing?

Good question. I don’t think it’s at the card stage, but frankly I won’t sign one till I see the benchmark. I totally agree with info sessions. But again, in my opinion, now is not the time to make a decision.

Just information gathering at this point. Organizers are known to management, it's all civil, no one is operating in the shadows. I think if the pilot group really wants it next year, I imagine the cards will circulate.

Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year.

[cdnavater]

Is there actually a union drive or just information sessions?
Is there cards being passed around for signing?

Good question. I don’t think it’s at the card stage, but frankly I won’t sign one till I see the benchmark. I totally agree with info sessions. But again, in my opinion, now is not the time to make a decision.

Just information gathering at this point. Organizers are known to management, it's all civil, no one is operating in the shadows. I think if the pilot group really wants it next year, I imagine the cards will circulate.
Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year

I do wonder if Porter is waiting to see how the union stuff pans out before releasing the benchmark, they know full well if they benchmark and then a union drive is successful, it’s locked in.
On the other hand, a sure way to fire up the troops is to not benchmark, interesting times for sure.
Besides the benchmarking, how is the QOL these days?
Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year

[cjp]

Good question. I don’t think it’s at the card stage, but frankly I won’t sign one till I see the benchmark. I totally agree with info sessions. But again, in my opinion, now is not the time to make a decision.

Just information gathering at this point. Organizers are known to management, it's all civil, no one is operating in the shadows. I think if the pilot group really wants it next year, I imagine the cards will circulate.
Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year

I do wonder if Porter is waiting to see how the union stuff pans out before releasing the benchmark, they know full well if they benchmark and then a union drive is successful, it’s locked in.
On the other hand, a sure way to fire up the troops is to not benchmark, interesting times for sure.
Besides the benchmarking, how is the QOL these days?
Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year

Operation is mostly stable right now. Typical medium to large 705 carrier. Some people are happy, some people are disappointed. FOs are waiting for upgrades. Captains are waiting for benchmarks. Senior Porter pilots are filing SMS's about premium trips going to LID trainers instead of them. Trainers are so busy they don't know which day of the week it is, but that's just starting to relax a little too. Getting into Christmas, so people are getting ready for the winter flying across the country. Vacation bids just dropped for 2025, hopefully people are happy.

Life's good I guess. Nice easy months, nice paychecks. I don't feel like I'm working too much, and always room to pickup if I wanted. Spending tons of time with family. Also excited to go out and fly. Aircraft could use a cleaning, but I do my best to tidy up after others (it's like my kids fly this jet before me). Wifi is quick. Legs can be long.

All in all, we're where we need to be. Could be better, but certainly could be a lot lot worse.

I'm hoping for a nice solid benchmark that ups the bar for the industry a bit (obviously its a benchmark, its not raising Air Canada's 777 bar, likely not even their narrowbodies), but hopefully something healthy both bottom and top (I'd love to see FO's north of 100k), with flavour for retirement, and other accoutrements.

Standing by for now.

[goingnowherefast]

Good question. I don’t think it’s at the card stage, but frankly I won’t sign one till I see the benchmark. I totally agree with info sessions. But again, in my opinion, now is not the time to make a decision.

Just information gathering at this point. Organizers are known to management, it's all civil, no one is operating in the shadows. I think if the pilot group really wants it next year, I imagine the cards will circulate.
Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year

I do wonder if Porter is waiting to see how the union stuff pans out before releasing the benchmark, they know full well if they benchmark and then a union drive is successful, it’s locked in.
On the other hand, a sure way to fire up the troops is to not benchmark, interesting times for sure.
Besides the benchmarking, how is the QOL these days?
Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year

Is the benchmark just pay? Or are there QOL and other important items involved as well?
Scheduling rules?
Reserve rules?
Trip rigs?
YOS?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Is the benchmark just pay? Or are there QOL and other important items involved as well?
Scheduling rules?
Reserve rules?
Trip rigs?
YOS?

I think that Porter pilots would like to know too.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Is the benchmark just pay? Or are there QOL and other important items involved as well?
Scheduling rules?
Reserve rules?
Trip rigs?
YOS?

I think that Porter pilots would like to know too.

My point exactly. Wait and see. What’s the rush

[cjp]

Just information gathering at this point. Organizers are known to management, it's all civil, no one is operating in the shadows. I think if the pilot group really wants it next year, I imagine the cards will circulate.
Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year

I do wonder if Porter is waiting to see how the union stuff pans out before releasing the benchmark, they know full well if they benchmark and then a union drive is successful, it’s locked in.
On the other hand, a sure way to fire up the troops is to not benchmark, interesting times for sure.
Besides the benchmarking, how is the QOL these days?
Let's see where the FOAG gets us in December, strum the old chins over Xmas, and look at it in the New Year

Is the benchmark just pay? Or are there QOL and other important items involved as well?
Scheduling rules?
Reserve rules?
Trip rigs?
YOS?

Typically benchmarks have been centralized around pay. That said, if this one was just about pay I feel it would've dropped already.

I think this one is a little more well rounded which is why there is so much back and forth.

I'd like to see salary benchmarking for Captain's closer to 90% of Air Canada. FO's 130% on the E2. I don't know comparables for the Q400 and same pay on the Q400 is not going to fly.

DB pension, matching Westjet (they're just getting theirs so follow their lead).

Per diems adjusted. Current 83 CAD everywhere, including USD for tips. Little things.

Those were my top three. Schedule drops around the 20th. I'm ok with that. Reserve is A and B, I'd like the ability to pickup while on reserve ahead of time.

YOS is important but expensive. Probably easier to bite the bullet now, but may cause salary tables to flatten. I think guys are getting max 3 YOS on the jet in the left if they do 10+ years here.

Trips right now are mostly 1-4 days.

[flyinhigh]

My point exactly. Wait and see. What’s the rush

Dude, statements like this shows you need to get educated in the process. You make it sound like we will certify tomorrow which is so far from the truth.

Even if the drive was started tomorrow, it would take months, not days. If the company doesn’t release the bench mark when they said of next month should the world stop while they work that super flexibly they always preach. No, the world continues and the holes of the FOAG will continue to show themselves.

The fact they are still reviewing it shows how week it is, all this work should have been completed in Sept when the TA was released, yet here we are.

Also, what’s the rush? The OC has been in the shadows for well over a year working away at this. Is that a rush? Really?

You know it’s been ongoing for aloooong time, heck someone start racoonsunionize thread here at the beginning of the year.

[goingnowherefast]

My point exactly. Wait and see. What’s the rush

Because there's more to ALPA than negotiations and having a collective agreement.

Scope protection and merger protection. People will argue if those points are relevant, but it's like car insurance. How much insurance you want is a personal decision. With 2 AOCs, it's probably important to solidify one seniority list before anyone decides it's a better business decision to have 2 lists and a terrible transfer process. Scope can secure it all on one seniority list and remove the ability to whipsaw Q400 against e2 pilots against each other.

What about the lawyers? You never know when a passenger will go berserk, ignore the seat belt sign and now you need a lawyer. Maybe someone decides the flare at YTZ is a good time to use the bathroom and goes tumbling down the isle.

I certainly appreciated access to ALPA's safety side when I had an engine quit. That's a dramatic, but anti-climatic event. Q400 hydraulic 1 failure and blow a couple tires, you'll really want ALPA safety support then. End up involved in a TSB or NTSB investigation, ALPA is invaluable.

So what's the rush? Work in this industry long enough, something will go wrong. You'll be wanting a professional and experienced organization to support you through the process.

Don't rush to certified with ALPA. Rushing means mistakes. Do work in that direction and get it done. As others have said, it's not like you can wake up one morning, push a button and ALPA is there with a mature contract and well established committees. It's a big complicated and time consuming process. Best to get it going.

[cjp]

A lot of the items you listed happened in the 18 years of Porter operations. Some worse than others; overruns, tail strikes, severe turbulence events, minor inconveniences, major oversights, countless hard landings, damage due to not following SOPs, blown slides, Captain's banging their way through the backend and everyone's booking off.

I've never heard of anyone being sewered by the company in 18 years when TC, or the TSB was involved.

A little remedial training, a finger wag and that was usually enough to forge on.

This doesn't seem to be Doug's Flyfishing Fly In Cabin, where you fart upwind and the boss smells it, he's not paying you for the last 12 weeks and he's already called up that next Confed grad.

The company I believe does provide a lawyer for the pilot should a work related event require one.

That said yes, probably not a bad idea to have ALPA in your back pocket if you are the type to Denzel the overnight. That I can see the company having less patience with.

[fliter]

I've never heard of anyone being sewered by the company in 18 years when TC, or the TSB was involved.

A little remedial training, a finger wag and that was usually enough to forge on.

Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I'm aware of at least one firing and one demotion to the right seat due to emergencies handled in a suboptimal manner. I'm not trying to make a case for whether those actions by the company were justified or not, I'm just saying that it's in the pilots' best interests to have independent legal protection.

The company I believe does provide a lawyer for the pilot should a work related event require one.

You believe? Isn't this the kind of thing one would like to know for sure?

Either way, it's all fine and good to have a company-supplied lawyer when yours and the company's interests align; less than optimal, however, if they diverge...

[goingnowherefast]

That said yes, probably not a bad idea to have ALPA in your back pocket if you are the type to Denzel the overnight. That I can see the company having less patience with.

I've seen ALPA pilots fired for less than "Denzel the overnight" type behavior. ALPA and their lawyers aren't a get-out-of-jail-free card. Do blow off a hooker's navel, and ALPA won't/can't save you. (They do have great substance abuse recovery supports, and thats another great benefit of ALPA).

I've never heard of anyone being sewered by the company in 18 years when TC, or the TSB was involved.

I wouldn't expect any company to sewer a pilot during a TSB/NTSB investigation. Real investigators are generally smart enough to see though that sorta crap anyway.
But wouldn't it be better if your perspective and experience is directly represented for you instead of through your employer? It leads to a more accurate representation of why something happened, a better report and findings. Lastly, who's going to walk you through the process and ease your fears and concerns? How about an organization that is already doing this continously and has a great working relationship with both the TSB and NTSB?

Either way, it's all fine and good to have a company-supplied lawyer when yours and the company's interests align; less than optimal, however, if they diverge...

This ^

[cjp]

That said yes, probably not a bad idea to have ALPA in your back pocket if you are the type to Denzel the overnight. That I can see the company having less patience with.

I've seen ALPA pilots fired for less than "Denzel the overnight" type behavior. ALPA and their lawyers aren't a get-out-of-jail-free card. Do blow off a hooker's navel, and ALPA won't/can't save you. (They do have great substance abuse recovery supports, and thats another great benefit of ALPA).

I've never heard of anyone being sewered by the company in 18 years when TC, or the TSB was involved.

I wouldn't expect any company to sewer a pilot during a TSB/NTSB investigation. Real investigators are generally smart enough to see though that sorta crap anyway.
But wouldn't it be better if your perspective and experience is directly represented for you instead of through your employer? It leads to a more accurate representation of why something happened, a better report and findings. Lastly, who's going to walk you through the process and ease your fears and concerns? How about an organization that is already doing this continously and has a great working relationship with both the TSB and NTSB?

Either way, it's all fine and good to have a company-supplied lawyer when yours and the company's interests align; less than optimal, however, if they diverge...

This ^

You both are not wrong about your positions, and I do agree that there are many benefits afforded by union representation, in standard and legal form. Forgive the ignorance I'm about to post, but in my many years of flying, both in and out of a union representation, I have never put myself into a position viewed as unfavorable by the company, at least nothing that if I took accountability for it, built a solution and moved forward, has ever been an issue. My times under a union, I have never reached out to the union for assistance, ever. Countless times I've had a discussion with the managers in an open setting, I've been directed to my union to continue the conversation...so it essentially stunts open communication with management (at least my former ops).

Unions are there to protect the weakest of employees, who typically (the employee) make poor decisions; career, life or otherwise, while all the good ones pay for it. Personally, I'm relieved when these employees are removed from the operation, instead of 'life supported' by it. If that happens to me in a version of my life that I work hard not to live, then I'll take the lessons, apply them to my growth, and move forward. I have worked under union guidance many times before and found no significant value in the process. Granted that was mostly non-ALPA representation.

I'm always open to growth and would consider ALPA if it made sense to our guys as a whole, but I'm not waving the ALPA flag. While both WS and AC did alright in their negotiations, watching it left many mixed emotions (generally developed after consoling friends who didn't see any major gains), even though when you look at the big picture, there were some gains to be had. To me, important items that I feel are missing right now at Porter are:

- Industry level salary for jet and scope of flying (I've stated my valuations above).
- Per diems (USD for US or international operations with a benchmark to CRA current levels).
- Retirement proofing (preferably a pension to signal long term care).
- Benefits (Medical/Dental) (general increase without a massive hit to monthly costs, or a decrease in costs in general).

Those things sorted, I can live with current state of operations. I know I won't see Christmas or summer vacation on my vacation bids for over a decade, but I can work around that. Everything else is in flux and I'm just a little ship on a big ocean, laying keel.

[goingnowherefast]

I'm glad you've had a privileged career. I got canned from a scummy 703 because I kept snagging the same issue. It was my fault maintenance didn't know how to fix the plane. After 2 months, they needed a scape goat, and I was easier to remove. (The problem persistented after my departure ).

I'm 100% certain Porter isn't like this. However, the point still remains. Fall out of favour with management, then you'll need support. Not just the big things, but the little day-to-day things that most probably don't notice. Maybe it's just a poorly worded fatigue policy/process and one looses some sick time. Snagging planes, bumping revenue for weather fuel, diversions, refusing fatiguing schedule shenanigans, etc. I've done lots of stuff that has put me in a position to be viewed as unfavorable by the company. Most of the time ALPA doesn't get involved, but it's great to know they have my back if needed. It's a little unnerving when I did things like that when there is no ALPA support. Sure the chief pilot might even be okay with a decision to take more gas in certain weather. However, it was some executive's friend that got bumped, and he's pissed. Is the chief pilot gonna put their neck on the line when they want the ops manager job, and are trying to schmooze the big wig?

As I've said earlier, I have seen ALPA pilots get fired too. ALPA ensured the due process was followed and the pilot was given fair treatment despite any manager's ill feelings towards the individual.

[cjp]

I'm glad you've had a privileged career. I got canned from a scummy 703 because I kept snagging the same issue. It was my fault maintenance didn't know how to fix the plane. After 2 months, they needed a scape goat, and I was easier to remove. (The problem persistented after my departure ).

I'm 100% certain Porter isn't like this. However, the point still remains. Fall out of favour with management, then you'll need support. Not just the big things, but the little day-to-day things that most probably don't notice. Maybe it's just a poorly worded fatigue policy/process and one looses some sick time. Snagging planes, bumping revenue for weather fuel, diversions, refusing fatiguing schedule shenanigans, etc. I've done lots of stuff that has put me in a position to be viewed as unfavorable by the company. Most of the time ALPA doesn't get involved, but it's great to know they have my back if needed. It's a little unnerving when I did things like that when there is no ALPA support. Sure the chief pilot might even be okay with a decision to take more gas in certain weather. However, it was some executive's friend that got bumped, and he's pissed. Is the chief pilot gonna put their neck on the line when they want the ops manager job, and are trying to schmooze the big wig?

As I've said earlier, I have seen ALPA pilots get fired too. ALPA ensured the due process was followed and the pilot was given fair treatment despite any manager's ill feelings towards the individual.

I've certainly been lucky in picking the right ops in a sometimes unforgiving industry. I've been there though, those days, weeks, months, stuck in the old snagging/pencil whip circle. Not at Porter though.

Fair, I can see your point.