captain upgrade timeline/requirements for new hires

[lvf_abv_clouds]

hello everyone,

can someone share what sort of timeline can a new hire with ATPL expect in order to upgrade to the left seat and if there's a matrix that the company uses in order to access eligibility?

thanks you!

regards

[Babar350]

If you are a fresh ATPL holder with 1500hrs, you'll be upgradable in 6 years.
If you already have the hours between 4 to 8 years depending on the base you choose.

[stelmosfire]

If you are a fresh ATPL holder with 1500hrs, you'll be upgradable in 6 years.
If you already have the hours between 4 to 8 years depending on the base you choose.

What about a candidate with ATPL 2500-3000TT?

I heard the upgrade requirement is 4000-5000 TT

[Localizer]

If you are a fresh ATPL holder with 1500hrs, you'll be upgradable in 6 years.
If you already have the hours between 4 to 8 years depending on the base you choose.

What about a candidate with ATPL 2500-3000TT?

I heard the upgrade requirement is 4000-5000 TT

Flight ops will do an assessment based on your training, rides and route checks.

It’s really on a case by case basis and the “requirements” don’t matter if they deem you acceptable for the position.

[Babar350]

If you are a fresh ATPL holder with 1500hrs, you'll be upgradable in 6 years.
If you already have the hours between 4 to 8 years depending on the base you choose.

What about a candidate with ATPL 2500-3000TT?

I heard the upgrade requirement is 4000-5000 TT

Flight ops will do an assessment based on your training, rides and route checks.

It’s really on a case by case basis and the “requirements” don’t matter if they deem you acceptable for the position.

Obviously AT is not Jazz where you can go left seat at 1500 TT with an ATPL.
I'd say minimum is 4000TT with relevant experience and seniority based.

[stelmosfire]

If you are a fresh ATPL holder with 1500hrs, you'll be upgradable in 6 years.
If you already have the hours between 4 to 8 years depending on the base you choose.

What about a candidate with ATPL 2500-3000TT?

I heard the upgrade requirement is 4000-5000 TT

Flight ops will do an assessment based on your training, rides and route checks.

It’s really on a case by case basis and the “requirements” don’t matter if they deem you acceptable for the position.

So what I gather from that is it would take about 4 years for a 2500TT new hire to upgrade on average?

Which makes sense, that’s a similar timeline I was told at the job fair.

[hsilgnepilot]

It’s hard to say for sure but last bid only had 9 new captain upgrades. 750 total pilots in the company (including inactive and management), most junior CA is 480. Of course not everyone is taking the most junior upgrade available but with no real expansion plans and minimal growth/hiring, I certainly wouldn’t bank on 4 years.

[flyinhigh]

So what I gather from that is it would take about 4 years for a 2500TT new hire to upgrade on average?

Which makes sense, that’s a similar timeline I was told at the job fair.

From buddies there who are still patiently waiting for the upgrade, it'll be more like 6 or 7.

[Babar350]

So what I gather from that is it would take about 4 years for a 2500TT new hire to upgrade on average?

Which makes sense, that’s a similar timeline I was told at the job fair.

From buddies there who are still patiently waiting for the upgrade, it'll be more like 6 or 7.

Therefore, the FO pay scale must take that into account.
Most Junior Captain was hired in 2018, so I'd say 4 years if we don't count Covid for a YYZ spot.

[cdnavater]

So what I gather from that is it would take about 4 years for a 2500TT new hire to upgrade on average?

Which makes sense, that’s a similar timeline I was told at the job fair.

From buddies there who are still patiently waiting for the upgrade, it'll be more like 6 or 7.

Therefore, the FO pay scale must take that into account.
Most Junior Captain was hired in 2018, so I'd say 4 years if we don't count Covid for a YYZ spot.

That’s not how time works, Covid happened and all the effects of that happened so a 2018 junior Captain was hired 6 years ago.

[330heavy]

From buddies there who are still patiently waiting for the upgrade, it'll be more like 6 or 7.

Therefore, the FO pay scale must take that into account.
Most Junior Captain was hired in 2018, so I'd say 4 years if we don't count Covid for a YYZ spot.

That’s not how time works, Covid happened and all the effects of that happened so a 2018 junior Captain was hired 6 years ago.

You'll be correct if covid or another flu is biennial. Pre covid upgrades were 5 years. Same can be said now minus covid, as Air transat was shut down with all laid off. With 321s slowly coming back online in the near future, it looks to remain 5 years. The caveat is, there's lots of senior FOs who are waiting for YUL or better left seat seniority, that could inflate the upgrade times. Flip side, a fleet expansion could lower them.

[cdnavater]

Therefore, the FO pay scale must take that into account.
Most Junior Captain was hired in 2018, so I'd say 4 years if we don't count Covid for a YYZ spot.

That’s not how time works, Covid happened and all the effects of that happened so a 2018 junior Captain was hired 6 years ago.

You'll be correct if covid or another flu is biennial. Pre covid upgrades were 5 years. Same can be said now minus covid, as Air transat was shut down with all laid off. With 321s slowly coming back online in the near future, it looks to remain 5 years. The caveat is, there's lots of senior FOs who are waiting for YUL or better left seat seniority, that could inflate the upgrade times. Flip side, a fleet expansion could lower them.

I understand what you are attempting to get at, our industry is and has always been cyclical, the low cycle has always been caused by outside influences, typically the economy, obviously a worldwide pandemic would have an effect.
People have been using Covid as an excuse for many things, I still hear people making excuses for bad service as an after effect from the pandemic, I mean come on, how long do the restrictions have to be lifted before it’s no longer an excuse!
Every company was affected by it, so whether you were hired before Covid and had your upgrade time delayed or not hired for a couple years until things started to pick back up is irrelevant, the time passed either way and many people were affected, it changed the path!
Let me ask this, if Trump imposes the 25% tariffs and sends our economy into a tailspin, a recession for two years delaying upgrades or causing mass layoffs, when hiring resumes and upgrade times are average of 9 years, would you then say, well the tariffs…..
WJ is saying upgrades are at 12-16 years depending on base and no one seems to be blaming Covid, the blame is on the fact that there is no growth and minimal retirements.

[kozak_letun]

Hello,

Could someone please provide information on how many guaranteed days off you get per month? How many on average in practice? Are there any changes expected after contract negotiations?

Is there any possibility of changing between the 320/330 fleet if you are assigned the less preferred option on joining day?

Are most flights to the southern vacation destinations turns or layovers? If layovers then typically how many hours rest?

Does the 330 still offer a good amount of turns and are they generally more junior or senior trips out of YYZ? What sort of trips can a junior pilot expect for the first few years on this fleet?

On the 320/321 are south trips generally turns? Donthey generally go to more senior pilots? Are there a lot of integrated patterns that have you hopping away from home for a few days? What sort of trips can a junior pilot expect for the first few years on this fleet based in YYZ?

Which fleet will give you the most time off at home today? What is the more preferred fleet to join on? If I was hypothetically number one on seniority I would prefer high credit daylight hour turns down south and back.

Thanks in advance

[330heavy]

Hello,

Could someone please provide information on how many guaranteed days off you get per month? 12 How many on average in practice? 12 to 20+ depends on fleet, month, seniorityAre there any changes expected after contract negotiations?possible

Is there any possibility of changing between the 320/330 fleet if you are assigned the less preferred option on joining day?possible through equipment/transfer bid based on seniority

Are most flights to the southern vacation destinations turns or layovers? Turns, some layovers ranging from 24hr to 4 daysIf layovers then typically how many hours rest? Away from base min 12hr but reality is 20+

Does the 330 still offer a good amount of turns and are they generally more junior or senior trips out of YYZ? What sort of trips can a junior pilot expect for the first few years on this fleet? Winter 330 turns south, summer EU layovers regardless seniority. Expect that as junior or senior

On the 320/321 are south trips generally turns? Donthey generally go to more senior pilots? Are there a lot of integrated patterns that have you hopping away from home for a few days? What sort of trips can a junior pilot expect for the first few years on this fleet based in YYZ? Essentially same as 330 but more variety all year. You can do turns year round (more in winter) or do EU year round (more in summer) or both. Like the 330 seniority plays in better desintations and layovers, some prefer turns, but juniors get a bit as well

Which fleet will give you the most time off at home today? What is the more preferred fleet to join on? If I was hypothetically number one on seniority I would prefer high credit daylight hour turns down south and back.This changes thoughout the year, as the 330 does a bit less flying in winter currently, but busy summer. Whereas 321 is pretty steady, but the groundings have given crews more time off on average. Preference depends on what you want, more variety (321), less variety and more long legs in summer to ATH, FCO etc in summer (330). Currently both fleets have a mix of seniority based on ones preference.
Pay is same regardless of fleet which is set to improve later this year

Thanks in advance

[kozak_letun]

Thank you very much for the information 330heavy.

Got another question:
At what point does the company add a 3rd pilot to the crew compliment? Do they load a 3rd pilot both ways if it’s only required 1 way?

[LongBranch]

It depends length of flight and time of departure based off your home base time that is roughly based off a Transport Canada new fatigue regulations. There is also an internal calculation that determines foreseen fatigue based off a given flight. For example all flights going to Peru require a augment both ways, but most European crossings only have a third crew member on the return leg. The argument being that going south at Midnight between mountains, weather, and the intertropical convergence zone so require a more an additional crew member.

Transat also does not do the 65 percent rule like AC, all flights are full flight credits for the purpose of pay and logbook.

[kozak_letun]

Ok, thanks for then reply. So one can expect a fair amount of deadheading to Europe then? Are you guaranteed a business class seat on other carriers or an upgraded class seat on Transat aircraft? Any perspectives of getting bunks on the widebodies? Also, is the company still considering buying 330neos/787? I remember some rumours circulating about that.

[330heavy]

Ok, thanks for then reply. So one can expect a fair amount of deadheading to Europe then? Not really, only if to augment back or some weird pairing. Usually junior, and they are finalizing more efficent pairings through Jeppsen, so should be less Are you guaranteed a business class seat on other carriers or an upgraded class seat on Transat aircraft? Only if DH over 6hrs subject to availibilty. On Transat, club based on availbilty and seniority Any perspectives of getting bunks on the widebodies? No Also, is the company still considering buying 330neos/787? Not in the near future I remember some rumours circulating about that.

[hsilgnepilot]

Thank you very much for the information 330heavy.

Got another question:
At what point does the company add a 3rd pilot to the crew compliment? Do they load a 3rd pilot both ways if it’s only required 1 way?

No. They absolutely will not add a pilot both ways if it’s only required one way. I have also called supervisors many hours prior to operating transatlantic flights which have been delayed to a 4am departure, and asked for an extra pilot and they have said “no because we can’t justify paying for it, you’re still legal.” So it’s purely just to save a buck and there any reason behind it other than that. I’ll provide two examples of scenarios where you will not see it.

1 - DH to Europe, 24h layover, operate back. Pays about 11h30 credit. Would be about 14h credit if you operate both legs.

2 - DH to Europe, 48h layover, operate back. Pays about 16h30 credit, and would pay the exact same if you operated both legs as is based on TAFB trip rig for credit. This scenario is the most mind blowing of them all that they won’t augment, and occurs much more frequently than people on here will admit.

I also would not bank on seeing augmented flights to Europe in the next collective agreement, it will continue to only occur when required by law. But hey - let’s keep sending 4 pilots to do south turns to save on layovers because somehow that’s more efficient.