We won't leave a penny on the table!!

[Aerkavo]

Sounds like someone enjoying their shiny new boat. Too bad it’s winter now I suppose, oh well can’t win em all I guess

Did you ever work at a place where there's that one old employee who is angry and twisted - hates the boss, hates the company, hates the job? They spend their days muttering, glaring at people and swearing at this, that, everything.

Poor 'lil FNGYYZ is on track to be one of these sad souls. Hates the company, his fellow pilots and feels like he's being forced to "eat shit". Do you think he (she) will magically become a happy, productive employee when they do get on regular formula pay or get upgraded to Capt or do you think they will carry this anger and bitterness forward? I'd bet on the latter.

I think it would be best for him (her) to go out into the world and find a place where he (she) feels appreciated. I certainly don't want to be working along side him (her).

[Canadianpilot2024]

Yeah, no one wants to be a curmudgeon.

But you need to step back and think..

Leave your “cushy” 705 employer to come to AC to greater opportunity with a WCC on the horizon…

Then waiting for a “massive” equipment bid….

Then realizing you can’t afford to be a commuter, financially and socially, the rest of your career…

Then you realize you made a mistake coming to AC, as is falls short on every metric regarding QOL and the only big pros are job security and flying a WB

Then you consider going back to your previous employer, but you’ve given up all your seniority and will be stuck at the bottom there as well… at least you won’t have to commute

So now you’re stuck as a commuter, making significantly less than your previous employer, with a good track record of broken promises working for a company than feels like a broken toxic marriage.

I’ll admit it was a gamble coming here, and I hope it pays off still. But I’ll admit leaving does cross my mind more than not.

I’m fortunate I have a second job, and have my head above water. I’ve heard guys are thousands in debt, going through divorces, have kids that they never see, etc.

Maybe have a little empathy for those crusty guys. 30 years of this could make anyone bitter imo.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Aerkavo is a shill...only empathy he has is towards Mikey and the company as they extract the maximum from the pilots for their bonuses & promotions.

Pretty fcked up!

[crystalpizza]

Sounds like someone enjoying their shiny new boat. Too bad it’s winter now I suppose, oh well can’t win em all I guess

Did you ever work at a place where there's that one old employee who is angry and twisted - hates the boss, hates the company, hates the job? They spend their days muttering, glaring at people and swearing at this, that, everything.

Poor 'lil FNGYYZ is on track to be one of these sad souls. Hates the company, his fellow pilots and feels like he's being forced to "eat shit". Do you think he (she) will magically become a happy, productive employee when they do get on regular formula pay or get upgraded to Capt or do you think they will carry this anger and bitterness forward? I'd bet on the latter.

I think it would be best for him (her) to go out into the world and find a place where he (she) feels appreciated. I certainly don't want to be working along side him (her).

They're all just bored trolls trying to be deliberately annoying at this point and this whole thread serves no useful purpose anyway. Not even worth reading let alone responding to.

[FNGYYZ]

It’s a horrific TA. Will be a resounding no from me. All is lost for Canadian aviation if this passes.

So all is well? I thought all was lost

[sicamore]

Christ you all sound like a bunch of crusty old curmudgeons. Air Canada sounds like one toxic place to work.

Sounds like you spend more time hating on each other than actually being happy

[Aerkavo]

Aerkavo is a shill...only empathy he has is towards Mikey and the company as they extract the maximum from the pilots for their bonuses & promotions.

Pretty fcked up!

You clearly don't know me. Everyone who knows me IRL would say I'm on the opposite end from being pro-company. I have also been burned by the union here and at other places enough to know that you can't fully trust them either.

I don't know if you're just throwing punches in the dark hoping something lands but you're completely off the mark if you think I have any empathy for the MR or the company.

[altiplano]

Sounds like someone enjoying their shiny new boat. Too bad it’s winter now I suppose, oh well can’t win em all I guess

Did you ever work at a place where there's that one old employee who is angry and twisted - hates the boss, hates the company, hates the job? They spend their days muttering, glaring at people and swearing at this, that, everything.

Poor 'lil FNGYYZ is on track to be one of these sad souls. Hates the company, his fellow pilots and feels like he's being forced to "eat shit". Do you think he (she) will magically become a happy, productive employee when they do get on regular formula pay or get upgraded to Capt or do you think they will carry this anger and bitterness forward? I'd bet on the latter.

I think it would be best for him (her) to go out into the world and find a place where he (she) feels appreciated. I certainly don't want to be working along side him (her).

That type of attitude is what is toxic.

Telling people they should quit or go work somewhere else if they are let down by the new deal, if they are having a hard time is divisive and disrespectful. It beats down your colleagues, not lifts them up.

The fact is that morale at this company is in the shitter. The leadership is completely absent. And we can look at this country as a whole it's some pretty bleak times. Looking at my last pay report of the year I just had my best year ever in terms of total income by about 50%, I have zero debt, but costs are through the roof on everything, it's debatable that I better off. If so, it's minimally at most, and mostly from some good timing in real estate.

It's not just new hires having a tough time around here. There are all sectors of this list, early career, mid career, and approaching the end...

What happened in this last round is water under the bridge now, doesn't mean we have to forget though, really it means we have to remember that we had never left behind. and we have brothers and sisters that want us all to do better.

[digits_]

Sounds like someone enjoying their shiny new boat. Too bad it’s winter now I suppose, oh well can’t win em all I guess

Did you ever work at a place where there's that one old employee who is angry and twisted - hates the boss, hates the company, hates the job? They spend their days muttering, glaring at people and swearing at this, that, everything.

Poor 'lil FNGYYZ is on track to be one of these sad souls. Hates the company, his fellow pilots and feels like he's being forced to "eat shit". Do you think he (she) will magically become a happy, productive employee when they do get on regular formula pay or get upgraded to Capt or do you think they will carry this anger and bitterness forward? I'd bet on the latter.

I think it would be best for him (her) to go out into the world and find a place where he (she) feels appreciated. I certainly don't want to be working along side him (her).

That type of attitude is what is toxic.

Telling people they should quit or go work somewhere else if they are let down by the new deal, if they are having a hard time is divisive and disrespectful. It beats down your colleagues, not lifts them up.

The fact is that morale at this company is in the shitter. The leadership is completely absent. And we can look at this country as a whole it's some pretty bleak times. Looking at my last pay report of the year I just had my best year ever in terms of total income by about 50%, I have zero debt, but costs are through the roof on everything, it's debatable that I better off. If so, it's minimally at most, and mostly from some good timing in real estate.

It's not just new hires having a tough time around here. There are all sectors of this list, early career, mid career, and approaching the end...

What happened in this last round is water under the bridge now, doesn't mean we have to forget though, really it means we have to remember that we had never left behind. and we have brothers and sisters that want us all to do better.

Hmm I absolutely think you guys should have gotten more with the new contract, but can you blame having a tough time in 'mid career, and approaching the end' on AC? If you can't avoid tough times on a 200k+ salary, should you really blame your employer?

[altiplano]

Hmm I absolutely think you guys should have gotten more with the new contract, but can you blame having a tough time in 'mid career, and approaching the end' on AC? If you can't avoid tough times on a 200k+ salary, should you really blame your employer?

That's sort of a forest/trees type response to my comment.

Your definition of tough times must be very narrow.

[FelixGustof]

Sounds like someone enjoying their shiny new boat. Too bad it’s winter now I suppose, oh well can’t win em all I guess

Did you ever work at a place where there's that one old employee who is angry and twisted - hates the boss, hates the company, hates the job? They spend their days muttering, glaring at people and swearing at this, that, everything.

Poor 'lil FNGYYZ is on track to be one of these sad souls. Hates the company, his fellow pilots and feels like he's being forced to "eat shit". Do you think he (she) will magically become a happy, productive employee when they do get on regular formula pay or get upgraded to Capt or do you think they will carry this anger and bitterness forward? I'd bet on the latter.

I think it would be best for him (her) to go out into the world and find a place where he (she) feels appreciated. I certainly don't want to be working along side him (her).

Is this what Air Canada pilots do?

Tell their fellow unionized brothers & sisters to go work somewhere else if they aren't happy? Isn't that the exact purpose of a union? Fight for more?

Or do geniuses like this spend time actively busting their own union

[Aerkavo]

Did you ever work at a place where there's that one old employee who is angry and twisted - hates the boss, hates the company, hates the job? They spend their days muttering, glaring at people and swearing at this, that, everything.

Poor 'lil FNGYYZ is on track to be one of these sad souls. Hates the company, his fellow pilots and feels like he's being forced to "eat shit". Do you think he (she) will magically become a happy, productive employee when they do get on regular formula pay or get upgraded to Capt or do you think they will carry this anger and bitterness forward? I'd bet on the latter.

I think it would be best for him (her) to go out into the world and find a place where he (she) feels appreciated. I certainly don't want to be working along side him (her).

Is this what Air Canada pilots do?

Tell their fellow unionized brothers & sisters to go work somewhere else if they aren't happy? Isn't that the exact purpose of a union? Fight for more?

Or do geniuses like this spend time actively busting their own union

No, this is not what AC pilots do however this is a special case.

After multiple posts from FNGYYZ and others likening the job to "eating shit" and telling us how much they hate their fellow pilots, the job and the company it just seems like they are really, really unhappy.

I want every AC pilot to have the best career they can and don't want anyone to go away. Well, unless they are really, really unhappy in which case they should think about whether they actually can make a career at AC or if they'd be happier elsewhere.

Don't be putting words in my mouth or trying to read between the lines - no hidden message. It's just that in some of these posts I seem to be seeing the seeds of longterm discontent. The latest TA/contract fiasco has been a big shock and disappointment to all of us. I'm much too far along in my career to go anywhere else but if I was younger and found myself in the "seriously unhappy" mindset I see in these posts I think looking at other options would be worthwhile vs spending 30 years being bitter and unhappy every day.

Regarding your comment about the union fighting for more - well, by the next contract almost 3/4 of the flat pay and reduced formula pilots will be on full formula. Will their anger and bitterness go away then or will it remain? That's the question.

[Protonpilot]

I'd add:

- Posties have been on strike for nearly a month. Somehow Air Canada pilots were going to get FOS

It's true that the posties were allowed to go on strike. Also true is that after five weeks it looks like they're going to be legislated back to work in a roundabout way via the CIRB. Just like was done with the rail workers.

So one month's pay gone, and the union has now dropped it's demands from 24% over four years to 19% over the same period (9/4/3/3).

The outcome of a strike is never a sure thing.

[Canadianpilot2024]

Does it cost Canada Post that much to go on strike?

Similar to other government jobs like teachers, nurses, etc.

The main expense would be labour I’d assume?

With AC, there is a lot more hemorrhaging going on if a strike did occur, no?

Hence, making a strike a lot more effective as the employer has a lot more to lose day to day?

[PeakLeverage]

Does it cost Canada Post that much to go on strike?

Similar to other government jobs like teachers, nurses, etc.

The main expense would be labour I’d assume?

With AC, there is a lot more hemorrhaging going on if a strike did occur, no?

Hence, making a strike a lot more effective as the employer has a lot more to lose day to day?

Air Canada pilots had a historic opportunity to truly push the limits for gains. Striking has for been demonstrated time and time again for 150 plus years to improve working conditions for workers. The idea this isn't true completely goes against the history of the labour movement.

The biggest travesty is the pilots were truly ready to fight corporate greed for more and their union took that away from them. Members who feel they deserve more will never forgive the current leaders of this. If they think they can just hide out and wait for this blow over...they are delusional

[Protonpilot]

Striking has for been demonstrated time and time again for 150 plus years to improve working conditions for workers. The idea this isn't true completely goes against the history of the labour movement.

When looking at how unions have fared after going on strike in this country, I'm more inclined to look at how things have played out over the last twelve months. The Winnipeg general strike of 1919 might be worth talking about in history class, but as to what I would expect from the government, company response and public reaction after turning down 26/4/4/4? Not so relevant IMHO.

[digits_]

Does it cost Canada Post that much to go on strike?

Similar to other government jobs like teachers, nurses, etc.

The main expense would be labour I’d assume?

With AC, there is a lot more hemorrhaging going on if a strike did occur, no?

Hence, making a strike a lot more effective as the employer has a lot more to lose day to day?

Exactly. Striking against a government is always less effective than against a private corporation. Especially if that government has the power to legislate you back to work. It's not a real strike as long as that possibility exists.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Yeah, no one wants to be a curmudgeon.

But you need to step back and think..

Leave your “cushy” 705 employer to come to AC to greater opportunity with a WCC on the horizon…

Then waiting for a “massive” equipment bid….

Then realizing you can’t afford to be a commuter, financially and socially, the rest of your career…

Then you realize you made a mistake coming to AC, as is falls short on every metric regarding QOL and the only big pros are job security and flying a WB

Then you consider going back to your previous employer, but you’ve given up all your seniority and will be stuck at the bottom there as well… at least you won’t have to commute

So now you’re stuck as a commuter, making significantly less than your previous employer, with a good track record of broken promises working for a company than feels like a broken toxic marriage.

I’ll admit it was a gamble coming here, and I hope it pays off still. But I’ll admit leaving does cross my mind more than not.

I’m fortunate I have a second job, and have my head above water. I’ve heard guys are thousands in debt, going through divorces, have kids that they never see, etc.

Maybe have a little empathy for those crusty guys. 30 years of this could make anyone bitter imo.

if someone can't live with 5k clear a month, the issue isn't the employer, it's the budgeting skills. That's also what happen when a kid's first working experience is at the control of a jet.

[FelixGustof]

Yeah, no one wants to be a curmudgeon.

But you need to step back and think..

Leave your “cushy” 705 employer to come to AC to greater opportunity with a WCC on the horizon…

Then waiting for a “massive” equipment bid….

Then realizing you can’t afford to be a commuter, financially and socially, the rest of your career…

Then you realize you made a mistake coming to AC, as is falls short on every metric regarding QOL and the only big pros are job security and flying a WB

Then you consider going back to your previous employer, but you’ve given up all your seniority and will be stuck at the bottom there as well… at least you won’t have to commute

So now you’re stuck as a commuter, making significantly less than your previous employer, with a good track record of broken promises working for a company than feels like a broken toxic marriage.

I’ll admit it was a gamble coming here, and I hope it pays off still. But I’ll admit leaving does cross my mind more than not.

I’m fortunate I have a second job, and have my head above water. I’ve heard guys are thousands in debt, going through divorces, have kids that they never see, etc.

Maybe have a little empathy for those crusty guys. 30 years of this could make anyone bitter imo.

if someone can't live with 5k clear a month, the issue isn't the employer, it's the budgeting skills. That's also what happen when a kid's first working experience is at the control of a jet.

Air Canada pilots don't clear $5k a month? Lol

Hory shit you guys are sad

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Striking has for been demonstrated time and time again for 150 plus years to improve working conditions for workers. The idea this isn't true completely goes against the history of the labour movement.

When looking at how unions have fared after going on strike in this country, I'm more inclined to look at how things have played out over the last twelve months. The Winnipeg general strike of 1919 might be worth talking about in history class, but as to what I would expect from the government, company response and public reaction after turning down 26/4/4/4? Not so relevant IMHO.

So you think if the union turned it down Air Canada pilots would have got less? Like less than WestJet & Porter? How beaten down are you? You do realize your contract in almost every metric is pathetic.

Rousseau this week defended his pay in front of a government Committee by saying "it is in line with other CEOs around North America".

Seems pretty logical but so illogical to you

[Man_in_the_sky]

Yeah, no one wants to be a curmudgeon.

But you need to step back and think..

Leave your “cushy” 705 employer to come to AC to greater opportunity with a WCC on the horizon…

Then waiting for a “massive” equipment bid….

Then realizing you can’t afford to be a commuter, financially and socially, the rest of your career…

Then you realize you made a mistake coming to AC, as is falls short on every metric regarding QOL and the only big pros are job security and flying a WB

Then you consider going back to your previous employer, but you’ve given up all your seniority and will be stuck at the bottom there as well… at least you won’t have to commute

So now you’re stuck as a commuter, making significantly less than your previous employer, with a good track record of broken promises working for a company than feels like a broken toxic marriage.

I’ll admit it was a gamble coming here, and I hope it pays off still. But I’ll admit leaving does cross my mind more than not.

I’m fortunate I have a second job, and have my head above water. I’ve heard guys are thousands in debt, going through divorces, have kids that they never see, etc.

Maybe have a little empathy for those crusty guys. 30 years of this could make anyone bitter imo.

if someone can't live with 5k clear a month, the issue isn't the employer, it's the budgeting skills. That's also what happen when a kid's first working experience is at the control of a jet.

Air Canada pilots don't clear $5k a month? Lol

Hory shit you guys are sad

AC has the lowest pay and the highest pay you can get as a pilot in canada ... how ironic

[Canadianpilot2024]

Im curious how much of the AC salaries go to whom in the payscales.

For example, if 30 percent of the pilots are on flat pay does that account for 15 percent of total pilot wages?

How much more from that 1.9 billion would it have cost the company to put everyone on formula pay? Double?

Was it ever really a realistic ask for year 1 guys getting +$100k a year?

To give every pilot (at 5200) a $100,000 raise it be 520 million or 2.1 billion over 4 years.

Thats just armchair math. But just curious

[Man_in_the_sky]

Your armchair math could be logical, but our armchair math is also that we’re spending 15+ years at year 12, so every $ gained on year 12 is 12 times higher in our pocket than at year 1 ..
But year 1 still sucks

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Your armchair math could be logical, but our armchair math is also that we’re spending 15+ years at year 12, so every $ gained on year 12 is 12 times higher in our pocket than at year 1 ..
But year 1 still sucks

Yes. This is true.

However, the company obviously calculates the value of the deal and they know this. The cheapest thing is to fix flat pay because those pilots are only there once.

And Air Canada pilots and union leaders keep bringing forward deals with this elementary school logic and rational for fucking junior pilots.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Your armchair math could be logical, but our armchair math is also that we’re spending 15+ years at year 12, so every $ gained on year 12 is 12 times higher in our pocket than at year 1 ..
But year 1 still sucks

Yes. This is true.

However, the company obviously calculates the value of the deal and they know this. The cheapest thing is to fix flat pay because those pilots are on there once yet they don't.

And Air Canada pilots and union leaders keep bringing forward deals with this elementary school logic and rational for fucking junior pilots.

There was 0 pilot on flat pay at the table representing us. No bargaining capital was used for that.