Misfuelling Thread

[rookiepilot]

Who is responsible for the aircraft, the fueler or the FO?

Neither? It’s the Ca who will end up in the hottest water.

Been a while since I took on gas in YPL but your fuel ticket should also say the grade they put in and since the truck prints that I’d trust it to be accurate. Hopefully Skycare has multiple places where an error like this can be trapped now, or better supervision of crews to prevent cranial-rectal inversion if there was some procedure skipped back then.

Procedure? I would take odds it was cold out. No one wanted to stay outside.

[cdnavater]

Who is responsible for the aircraft, the fueler or the FO?

Neither? It’s the Ca who will end up in the hottest water.

Been a while since I took on gas in YPL but your fuel ticket should also say the grade they put in and since the truck prints that I’d trust it to be accurate. Hopefully Skycare has multiple places where an error like this can be trapped now, or better supervision of crews to prevent cranial-rectal inversion if there was some procedure skipped back then.

Procedure? I would take odds it was cold out. No one wanted to stay outside.

We’re in a business that requires trust to a certain extent, most of the time the fuel truck is not there when you arrive, if it is, I can almost certainly guarantee the pilot would look at the truck and see if it was the correct fuel.
It’s been a day since I’ve flown a piston but I was wary because most of the time I didn’t see the fueling, so I would check the fuel slip, never left without it.
That’s really what should have happened and unfortunately the time pressure the pilots would definitely feel working for Frank would be conducive to an environment where things are missed because of it.
It’s NOT because it was cold, you continue to show how little you know about the industry and what goes on on a daily basis, if the pilots weren’t there at the time of fueling, they were doing something else related to the job, not sitting around the fireplace drinking hot cocoa!

[rookiepilot]

Neither? It’s the Ca who will end up in the hottest water.

Been a while since I took on gas in YPL but your fuel ticket should also say the grade they put in and since the truck prints that I’d trust it to be accurate. Hopefully Skycare has multiple places where an error like this can be trapped now, or better supervision of crews to prevent cranial-rectal inversion if there was some procedure skipped back then.

Procedure? I would take odds it was cold out. No one wanted to stay outside.

We’re in a business that requires trust to a certain extent, most of the time the fuel truck is not there when you arrive, if it is, I can almost certainly guarantee the pilot would look at the truck and see if it was the correct fuel.
It’s been a day since I’ve flown a piston but I was wary because most of the time I didn’t see the fueling, so I would check the fuel slip, never left without it.
That’s really what should have happened and unfortunately the time pressure the pilots would definitely feel working for Frank would be conducive to an environment where things are missed because of it.
It’s NOT because it was cold, you continue to show how little you know about the industry and what goes on on a daily basis, if the pilots weren’t there at the time of fueling, they were doing something else related to the job, not sitting around the fireplace drinking hot cocoa!

You know,I have refueled in northern Ontario many, many times. In winter. Its why I am entitled to comment here.

Did they look at the label on the truck? This aint YYZ. The trucks are real close by.

Its an airplane everyone knows resembles a turboprop. Whose responsibility is it to make sure its known it is not?

Your words are BS. I have sat with other pilots, drinking the cocoa, right beside me more than once.

Stop patronizing, because I don’t do this for a living — and stop blaming Frank too. I know Frank.

Its BS to always shove the blame on someone else. Its the fueler. Its the boss.

[cdnavater]

Procedure? I would take odds it was cold out. No one wanted to stay outside.

We’re in a business that requires trust to a certain extent, most of the time the fuel truck is not there when you arrive, if it is, I can almost certainly guarantee the pilot would look at the truck and see if it was the correct fuel.
It’s been a day since I’ve flown a piston but I was wary because most of the time I didn’t see the fueling, so I would check the fuel slip, never left without it.
That’s really what should have happened and unfortunately the time pressure the pilots would definitely feel working for Frank would be conducive to an environment where things are missed because of it.
It’s NOT because it was cold, you continue to show how little you know about the industry and what goes on on a daily basis, if the pilots weren’t there at the time of fueling, they were doing something else related to the job, not sitting around the fireplace drinking hot cocoa!

You know,I have refueled in northern Ontario many, many times. In winter. Its why I am entitled to comment here.

Did they look at the label on the truck? This aint YYZ. The trucks are real close by.

Its an airplane everyone knows resembles a turboprop. Whose responsibility is it to make sure its known it is not?

Your words are BS. I have sat with other pilots, drinking the cocoa, right beside me more than once.

Stop patronizing, because I don’t do this for a living — and stop blaming Frank too. I know Frank.

Its BS to always shove the blame on someone else. Its the fueler. Its the boss.

I’ve fueled in Northern Ontario and Manitoba and the arctic a few thousand times before I joined the airlines and I can say with absolute certainty, with my 5000 hours 12 years of medevac operations, the majority of the time the fuel truck is was parked in front of me when I either went to get a weather briefing or went to the nursing station with the entire crew or went to town to pick up the flight nurse and grab some food on our way back to the airplane for the 3rd or 4th leg of the now 12 hour day, no time to waste, we need to get back to base to start the crew rest so they can call us at the nine hour mark for another 14 hour day.
You fueling in Northern Ontario is not remotely, never mind remotely, not even in the same universe as the same thing, you have the luxury of time!
Don’t get me wrong, I think the crew should’ve looked at the fuel slip to verify correct fuel but to suggest they were just sitting around in a warm building, which is slightly possible but very unlikely in a medevac operation, especially one run by Frank!
You DON’T know Frank unless you’ve worked for Frank, I worked for him in the early 90s and I have trained pilots over the last several years who were working for Frank, every single time, EVERY single time the stories are the same and it’s like time stood still. I have never, ever encountered a pilot who had good things to say about him.

[rookiepilot]

We’re in a business that requires trust to a certain extent, most of the time the fuel truck is not there when you arrive, if it is, I can almost certainly guarantee the pilot would look at the truck and see if it was the correct fuel.
It’s been a day since I’ve flown a piston but I was wary because most of the time I didn’t see the fueling, so I would check the fuel slip, never left without it.
That’s really what should have happened and unfortunately the time pressure the pilots would definitely feel working for Frank would be conducive to an environment where things are missed because of it.
It’s NOT because it was cold, you continue to show how little you know about the industry and what goes on on a daily basis, if the pilots weren’t there at the time of fueling, they were doing something else related to the job, not sitting around the fireplace drinking hot cocoa!

You know,I have refueled in northern Ontario many, many times. In winter. Its why I am entitled to comment here.

Did they look at the label on the truck? This aint YYZ. The trucks are real close by.

Its an airplane everyone knows resembles a turboprop. Whose responsibility is it to make sure its known it is not?

Your words are BS. I have sat with other pilots, drinking the cocoa, right beside me more than once.

Stop patronizing, because I don’t do this for a living — and stop blaming Frank too. I know Frank.

Its BS to always shove the blame on someone else. Its the fueler. Its the boss.

I’ve fueled in Northern Ontario and Manitoba and the arctic a few thousand times before I joined the airlines and I can say with absolute certainty, with my 5000 hours 12 years of medevac operations, the majority of the time the fuel truck is was parked in front of me when I either went to get a weather briefing or went to the nursing station with the entire crew or went to town to pick up the flight nurse and grab some food on our way back to the airplane for the 3rd or 4th leg of the now 12 hour day, no time to waste, we need to get back to base to start the crew rest so they can call us at the nine hour mark for another 14 hour day.
You fueling in Northern Ontario is not remotely, never mind remotely, not even in the same universe as the same thing, you have the luxury of time!
Don’t get me wrong, I think the crew should’ve looked at the fuel slip to verify correct fuel but to suggest they were just sitting around in a warm building, which is slightly possible but very unlikely in a medevac operation, especially one run by Frank!
You DON’T know Frank unless you’ve worked for Frank, I worked for him in the early 90s and I have trained pilots over the last several years who were working for Frank, every single time, EVERY single time the stories are the same and it’s like time stood still. I have never, ever encountered a pilot who had good things to say about him.

I got it. I can’t comment because I expect a pilot to check the truck or fuel slip.

Does JETA even resemble 100LL on a piece of paper? How long does that take to look?

F —- I’m such an ass—le.

Done. Its always the same story here.

[cdnavater]

From TSB...

C-GQXD, a Piper PA-31-350 operated by 2080061 Ontario Inc. (dba SkyCare Air Ambulance), was
conducting a flight from Pickle Lake Airport (CYPL), ON to Winnipeg/St. Andrews (CYAV), MB.
The aircraft was fuelled by a local fuelling company in CYPL. As the aircraft was departing from
CYPL, the fueller realized that the aircraft was fuelled with Jet A instead of AVGAS and called NAV
CANADA to relay a message to the flight crew of C-GQXD. The engines continued running and
crew diverted to Sioux Lookout Airport (CYXL), ON, where the aircraft landed without incident.

If one does not see the fuel truck and read the type of gas labelled on the truck, they can always look at the fuel bill. I got a bill once that said Jet A when it was supposed to be avgas. They swore up and down that it was an error on the bill and after several checks of fuel, it appears that it was an billing error.

I read of these again and again. Gets old. These guys were lucky.

What exactly is the flight crew doing?

Supervise your fueling!

Or is that beneath you like cleaning out seatbacks?

Why don’t you get the fueler to do your walk around too? Turn on the aircraft and warm it up? LOL.

Seriously. Call yourself a professional pilot. Act like it.

I’ll await the “thats not my job” from snot nosed 20 year old 300 hr CPL’s.

Sheesh! Its your life.

Typical rookie bullshit, going off half cocked without any facts, so you sucked me in because I assumed you read the god damn report!

From the report,
“At CYPL, fuel is stored in above-ground fixed storage tanks (Figure 1), which are placarded according to the type of fuel. Aircraft must taxi or be towed to the designated refuelling area.
At approximately 1500, the occurrence aircraft taxied to the refuelling pad, where it had been refuelled over the course of the previous 4 days. The captain then left the refuelling area to work on flight planning while the FO stayed with the aircraft. The FO requested that the refuelling agent add fuel to the aircraft, and the refuelling agent proceeded to refuel the aircraft with Jet A-1. Video footage obtained from North Star Air shows the refuelling agent and the FO communicating before, during, and after the refuelling event, though it does not show the whole aircraft or the refuelling process. Once fuelling was completed, the refuelling agent handed the FO a fuel receipt (Figure 2), and the FO signed it and retained a copy. The FO then handed the receipt to the captain, who did not review it”

[rookiepilot]

From the report that you referenced: makes this look worse — not better.

The captain then left the refuelling area to work on flight planning while the FO stayed with the aircraft. The FO requested that the refuelling agent add fuel to the aircraft, and the refuelling agent proceeded to refuel the aircraft with Jet A-1.

And he noticed nothing wrong?


Once fuelling was completed, the refuelling agent handed the FO a fuel receipt (Figure 2), and the FO signed it and retained a copy. The FO then handed the receipt to the captain, who did not review it. At approximately 1700, the refuelled aircraft departed CYPL for Winnipeg/St. Andrews Airport (CYAV), Manitoba, with the flight crew on board.

Figure 2. Fuel receipt (Source: North Star Air Ltd., with permission. Personal information hidden.)
Image
Fuel receipt (Source: North Star Air Ltd., with permission. Personal information hidden.)

The receipts clearly both show “A1”. Or “JETA”

Did the pilots ask for “avgas” or just for “fuel” ?

Did he read the slip?


Also in the report:

A co-worker of the refuelling agent noticed unusual emissions trailing from the aircraft on departure and contacted the refuelling agent, who was leaving work after his shift. During the ensuing conversation, they decided that the emissions had likely been caused by fuel venting due to full auxiliary fuel tanks. Shortly after, the refuelling agent consulted the internet and realized that PA-31-350 aircraft normally take AVGAS and that the occurrence aircraft had instead been fuelled with Jet A-1 fuel. He subsequently reported this incident to his manager at North Star Air, who then contacted SkyCare dispatch and the London Flight Information Centre (FIC) to inform them that the occurrence aircraft had been fuelled with Jet A-1, the wrong type of fuel.

Someone was on the ball here, sure don’t look like the FO.

Typical Cadvatar BS. Blame everyone else but the person responsible.

[cdnavater]

From the report that you referenced: makes this look worse — not better.

The captain then left the refuelling area to work on flight planning while the FO stayed with the aircraft. The FO requested that the refuelling agent add fuel to the aircraft, and the refuelling agent proceeded to refuel the aircraft with Jet A-1.

And he noticed nothing wrong?


Once fuelling was completed, the refuelling agent handed the FO a fuel receipt (Figure 2), and the FO signed it and retained a copy. The FO then handed the receipt to the captain, who did not review it. At approximately 1700, the refuelled aircraft departed CYPL for Winnipeg/St. Andrews Airport (CYAV), Manitoba, with the flight crew on board.

Figure 2. Fuel receipt (Source: North Star Air Ltd., with permission. Personal information hidden.)
Image
Fuel receipt (Source: North Star Air Ltd., with permission. Personal information hidden.)

The receipts clearly both show “A1”. Or “JETA”

Did the pilots ask for “avgas” or just for “fuel” ?

Did he read the slip?


Also in the report:

A co-worker of the refuelling agent noticed unusual emissions trailing from the aircraft on departure and contacted the refuelling agent, who was leaving work after his shift. During the ensuing conversation, they decided that the emissions had likely been caused by fuel venting due to full auxiliary fuel tanks. Shortly after, the refuelling agent consulted the internet and realized that PA-31-350 aircraft normally take AVGAS and that the occurrence aircraft had instead been fuelled with Jet A-1 fuel. He subsequently reported this incident to his manager at North Star Air, who then contacted SkyCare dispatch and the London Flight Information Centre (FIC) to inform them that the occurrence aircraft had been fuelled with Jet A-1, the wrong type of fuel.

Someone was on the ball here, sure don’t look like the FO.

Typical Cadvatar BS. Blame everyone else but the person responsible.

No you fu ckn moron, you started out saying the pilots were just sitting around and not supervising the fueling, you went on to say they were not professional and were just sitting inside to stay warm. I corrected you about the reality of being able to supervise, assuming you had actually read the report that you were commenting on!
In this instance, which was very likely a training mission, there would be no excuse to have prevented this, this FO is an idiot and the Captain for not double checking the correct fuel, clearly the FO had no clue!

[rookiepilot]

From the report that you referenced: makes this look worse — not better.

The captain then left the refuelling area to work on flight planning while the FO stayed with the aircraft. The FO requested that the refuelling agent add fuel to the aircraft, and the refuelling agent proceeded to refuel the aircraft with Jet A-1.

And he noticed nothing wrong?


Once fuelling was completed, the refuelling agent handed the FO a fuel receipt (Figure 2), and the FO signed it and retained a copy. The FO then handed the receipt to the captain, who did not review it. At approximately 1700, the refuelled aircraft departed CYPL for Winnipeg/St. Andrews Airport (CYAV), Manitoba, with the flight crew on board.

Figure 2. Fuel receipt (Source: North Star Air Ltd., with permission. Personal information hidden.)
Image
Fuel receipt (Source: North Star Air Ltd., with permission. Personal information hidden.)

The receipts clearly both show “A1”. Or “JETA”

Did the pilots ask for “avgas” or just for “fuel” ?

Did he read the slip?


Also in the report:

A co-worker of the refuelling agent noticed unusual emissions trailing from the aircraft on departure and contacted the refuelling agent, who was leaving work after his shift. During the ensuing conversation, they decided that the emissions had likely been caused by fuel venting due to full auxiliary fuel tanks. Shortly after, the refuelling agent consulted the internet and realized that PA-31-350 aircraft normally take AVGAS and that the occurrence aircraft had instead been fuelled with Jet A-1 fuel. He subsequently reported this incident to his manager at North Star Air, who then contacted SkyCare dispatch and the London Flight Information Centre (FIC) to inform them that the occurrence aircraft had been fuelled with Jet A-1, the wrong type of fuel.

Someone was on the ball here, sure don’t look like the FO.

Typical Cadvatar BS. Blame everyone else but the person responsible.

No you fu ckn moron, you started out saying the pilots were just sitting around and not supervising the fueling, you went on to say they were not professional and were just sitting inside to stay warm. I corrected you about the reality of being able to supervise, assuming you had actually read the report that you were commenting on!
In this instance, which was very likely a training mission, there would be no excuse to have prevented this, this FO is an idiot and the Captain for not double checking the correct fuel, clearly the FO had no clue!

Does an FO with 277 hours on type, and I year as FO on the 350, need training on which type of fuel goes in an aircraft?


From the FACTUAL report:
The FO had been employed by SkyCare since 25 October 2022 and was a PA-31-350 FO with 277.3 hours on type.

[cdnavater]

From the report that you referenced: makes this look worse — not better.

The captain then left the refuelling area to work on flight planning while the FO stayed with the aircraft. The FO requested that the refuelling agent add fuel to the aircraft, and the refuelling agent proceeded to refuel the aircraft with Jet A-1.

And he noticed nothing wrong?


Once fuelling was completed, the refuelling agent handed the FO a fuel receipt (Figure 2), and the FO signed it and retained a copy. The FO then handed the receipt to the captain, who did not review it. At approximately 1700, the refuelled aircraft departed CYPL for Winnipeg/St. Andrews Airport (CYAV), Manitoba, with the flight crew on board.

Figure 2. Fuel receipt (Source: North Star Air Ltd., with permission. Personal information hidden.)
Image
Fuel receipt (Source: North Star Air Ltd., with permission. Personal information hidden.)

The receipts clearly both show “A1”. Or “JETA”

Did the pilots ask for “avgas” or just for “fuel” ?

Did he read the slip?


Also in the report:

A co-worker of the refuelling agent noticed unusual emissions trailing from the aircraft on departure and contacted the refuelling agent, who was leaving work after his shift. During the ensuing conversation, they decided that the emissions had likely been caused by fuel venting due to full auxiliary fuel tanks. Shortly after, the refuelling agent consulted the internet and realized that PA-31-350 aircraft normally take AVGAS and that the occurrence aircraft had instead been fuelled with Jet A-1 fuel. He subsequently reported this incident to his manager at North Star Air, who then contacted SkyCare dispatch and the London Flight Information Centre (FIC) to inform them that the occurrence aircraft had been fuelled with Jet A-1, the wrong type of fuel.

Someone was on the ball here, sure don’t look like the FO.

Typical Cadvatar BS. Blame everyone else but the person responsible.

No you fu ckn moron, you started out saying the pilots were just sitting around and not supervising the fueling, you went on to say they were not professional and were just sitting inside to stay warm. I corrected you about the reality of being able to supervise, assuming you had actually read the report that you were commenting on!
In this instance, which was very likely a training mission, there would be no excuse to have prevented this, this FO is an idiot and the Captain for not double checking the correct fuel, clearly the FO had no clue!

Does an FO need training on which type of fuel goes in an aircraft?

It appears so, however, it is not the FOs fault, this one falls squarely on the shoulder of the Captain

[CaptDukeNukem]

Too bad it wasn’t a pt-6. That shit will run on drunk pilot urine. Or butter. Or olive oil.

[rookiepilot]

I corrected you about the reality of being able to supervise, assuming you had actually read the report that you were commenting on!
In this instance, which was very likely a training mission, there would be no excuse to have prevented this, this FO is an idiot and the Captain for not double checking the correct fuel, clearly the FO had no clue!

I read the report. Twice. Where does it say this was a training mission?

From the report:

The FO had been employed by SkyCare since 25 October 2022 and was a PA-31-350 FO with 277.3 hours on type.

That is a lot of time to not know what type of fuel is required.

[Dias]

This whole issue was basically solved decades ago by Bob Hoover and the flared nozzle.
If North Star is an ESSO reseller than ESSO is going to be looking at them very hard now for not having the Hoover nozzle on as the default.
I think you guys are putting too much emphasis on PIC authority. Businesses can't do negligent things to airplanes and then say 'Well the PIC didn't stop me'.

[cdnavater]

This whole issue was basically solved decades ago by Bob Hoover and the flared nozzle.
If North Star is an ESSO reseller than ESSO is going to be looking at them very hard now for not having the Hoover nozzle on as the default.
I think you guys are putting too much emphasis on PIC authority. Businesses can't do negligent things to airplanes and then say 'Well the PIC didn't stop me'.

The buck stops with the Captain, trust is one thing but when you pull a piston airplane up to bulk fuel tanks of both avgas and jet A or B, you don’t think the Captain should have a glance at the fuel receipt?
If you want to blame the fueler, maybe the blame should be directed to any manufacturer that has a turbine aircraft that can’t be fueled without the smaller nozzle, if the manufacturers ALL had the correct fueling port, the nozzle would never need changing.
Let’s go even further and blame Transport Canada for allowing a retrofit of a piston aircraft to turbine without forcing a change to the filler port to be an approved mod.
So, this accident is all Transport Canada’s fault!

[rookiepilot]

This whole issue was basically solved decades ago by Bob Hoover and the flared nozzle.
If North Star is an ESSO reseller than ESSO is going to be looking at them very hard now for not having the Hoover nozzle on as the default.
I think you guys are putting too much emphasis on PIC authority. Businesses can't do negligent things to airplanes and then say 'Well the PIC didn't stop me'.

That how they teach it in flight school?

Whose responsibility is it for the conduct of a safe flight again?

These kinda — and too frequent— posts annoy me on this site. These threads become not a learning tool, but a “everyone f-d up except the pilots, because they possibly couldn’t have”.

And immediately following are the posts saying “we don’t get paid enough for the responsibility we carry”.

Something really wrong in that message.

[rookiepilot]

This whole issue was basically solved decades ago by Bob Hoover and the flared nozzle.
If North Star is an ESSO reseller than ESSO is going to be looking at them very hard now for not having the Hoover nozzle on as the default.
I think you guys are putting too much emphasis on PIC authority. Businesses can't do negligent things to airplanes and then say 'Well the PIC didn't stop me'.

The buck stops with the Captain, trust is one thing but when you pull a piston airplane up to bulk fuel tanks of both avgas and jet A or B, you don’t think the Captain should have a glance at the fuel receipt?

A piston airplane that looks a lot like a turboprop, and this why so many fueling incidents have happened with this particular type.

The captain would certainly know this, and I would hope an FO with 300 hours on type would know, too.