FOAG 2025

[goingnowherefast]

Is it enough to keep the Q400 and e2 FOs from signing ALPA cards?
What about Q400 and e2 captains?

What's the consensus on the street?

[flyingpilot]

There are no improvements to qol or significant salary improvements for FOs. I dont see why any FO would not want to sign on with ALPA. This benchmark has produced one of the worst pay increases for FOs than any ALPA contract i have ever seen. Not sure how the CA feel.

[C-GGGQ]

I’m an E2 FO and never expected a huge pay increase. AC only came up to match out first few years basically so where was the payscale supposed to go? I was hoping for more QOL stuff and have a suspicion that this was all delayed cause they gutted version 2 before release because version 2 has nothing. It must have had SOMETHING before and someone got pissy and got whatever it was removed. One was supposed to have reserve rules and one commuting. Commuting and reserve both ended up on Version 1 and version 2 ended up with zilch.

[flyingpilot]

so the question is would have ALPA come up with a better contract (better pay for FOs, and better QOL)?

[cjp]

Likely. This looks like its a 2 stepper. The first one falls short, to see how many people signal its not enough with their feet, then the second half comes in when they are into mondo overtime going into summer.

The open time over the holidays was insane. Happy to say I enjoyed my time off and silenced crew sked.

[Di83]

so the question is would have ALPA come up with a better contract (better pay for FOs, and better QOL)?

Would be hard not to. I was against ALPA, but now ill sign the card. Nothing to loose at this point.

[goingnowherefast]

ALPA, or anybody can't squeeze any more blood out of a rock.

ALPA gets you negotiating supports. Financial experts to know how hard to squeeze. Labour relations experts to ensure loopholes are closed and language is clear.

ALPA also brings a proper dispute resolution process. If there is a disagreement with an interpretation, ask a 3rd party (arbitrator). The arbitrator is an impartial judge and jury. Who's the decider when there's a FOAG disagreement, management? Cause they're impartial... Judge, jury, executioner and beneficiary.

[flyinhigh]

so the question is would have ALPA come up with a better contract (better pay for FOs, and better QOL)?

In seriousness, it just shows that there is no consistency in companies language of what they say, and what the FOAG can actually do.

[C-GGGQ]

so the question is would have ALPA come up with a better contract (better pay for FOs, and better QOL)?

Pay? I doubt honestly. Not on the FO side. Maybe captains could have matched AC. QOL maybe? Better retirement? Some more scheduling stuff? Possibly. As for ALPA protections etc i’ve seen them first hand fail to stop Cargojet management from unilaterally changing “policy”. Putting out memos and newsletters just informing staff they’re breaking clauses. Goes to arbitration or negotiation and alpa lawyers and experts tell us we were screwed because of “past practice” so basically since they got away with it before they get to get away with it going forward too.

[braaap Braap]

Now that we've had ~2 weeks to digest the benchmark and with the townhalls next week, what are the thoughts?

Personally I think I will be voting for package B (the one with next to no changes) as the improvements in A come at the expense of further dividing the pilot group between Line holders vs reserve vs commuters. Like someone I talked to said, why is there this illusion between shitpile A and shitpile B and not a "yes, we'll work under this package" or "no, go back to the drawing board". And while its nice to see them try and undercut the ALPA drive by catering to what the Porter Pilots for Change people keep talking about, how am I to trust any of the fluffy words they've added when they're already dismantling and calling the vacation award language for people with 15+ years of service from last year a "mistake".

[Speedbrakes]

when they're already dismantling and calling the vacation award language for people with 15+ years of service from last year a "mistake".

Sorry but can you expound on this? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

[flyingpilot]

I’m pretty sure alpa could have done better than a $0.50 hourly pay cut for 2nd year FOs. But hey what do I know.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I’m pretty sure alpa could have done better than a $0.50 hourly pay cut for 2nd year FOs. But hey what do I know.

That's a claim. Mind showing your work?

[TPP]

I’m pretty sure alpa could have done better than a $0.50 hourly pay cut for 2nd year FOs. But hey what do I know.

That's a claim. Mind showing your work?

Math checks out. I too suspect ALPA can do better than a pay cut for FOs, a further degradation of reserve rules if we pick option 1, and a pinky promise we will fight for you in a merger, until we won't, see your latest Friday night bulletin for details.

I don't think ALPA is going to make it rain cash as there is only so much you can pay during a rapid expansion. But I do think through their resources we can negotiate better work rules, get actual legal protection in case a merger happens, and close a lot of loop holes in our current work rules that always tend to favor the operation vs pilots work/life balance.

[C-GGGQ]

How is it a degradation of the reserve rules?

[braaap Braap]

when they're already dismantling and calling the vacation award language for people with 15+ years of service from last year a "mistake".

Sorry but can you expound on this? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Sure thing.

- FOAG 15, last page, Vacation Allotment for Years of Service between 15-19 years = 34 days
- Provern Awards for top seniority group = 7 weeks per person
- Email to affected senior people saying it was a formula error and they will be contacted to find out which week they'd like to relinquish with an opportunity to have part of the days off under an alternative solution.

[flyinhigh]

How is it a degradation of the reserve rules?

Did you read the package or attend a townhall.

Only top 30% of reserve list gets locked A or B, 72 hours out the rest get what ever is assigned. Hard to plan a life and thats literally the beginning.

The “Commuter Hotels” is a carrot, means nothing as you still require a crash pad.

Or how about the draft on day of language. The way they wrote it, it states that “if you deny the draft, you loose the credits”.

So if you come in to work for say 4 hour credits, they draft you for 5 more credits but you say no, you are NEGATIVE 1 credit for the day. WTF

When pressed in the townhall they at least admitted to this, and said they have to re look at it. But why did this see the light of day?

[C-GGGQ]

How is it a degradation of the reserve rules?

Did you read the package or attend a townhall.

Only top 30% of reserve list gets locked A or B, 72 hours out the rest get what ever is assigned. Hard to plan a life and thats literally the beginning.

The “Commuter Hotels” is a carrot, means nothing as you still require a crash pad.

Or how about the draft on day of language. The way they wrote it, it states that “if you deny the draft, you loose the credits”.

So if you come in to work for say 4 hour credits, they draft you for 5 more credits but you say no, you are NEGATIVE 1 credit for the day. WTF

When pressed in the townhall they at least admitted to this, and said they have to re look at it. But why did this see the light of day?

Our town hall is tomorrow.

[8895]

Everything from saying FO’s considering AC are simply chasing metal, to not understanding parts of the language in the agreement they’re being asked about, I think these town halls have really exposed how broken this FOAG process has become, not to mention of how low priority pilots are in the eyes of management right now.

I’ll have my popcorn out for the YYZ town hall.

[Pratt X 3]

Our town hall is tomorrow.

All the town halls scheduled have Google Meet links listed and you are not constrained to attending the one associated with your base.

[Pratt X 3]

when they're already dismantling and calling the vacation award language for people with 15+ years of service from last year a "mistake".

Sorry but can you expound on this? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Sure thing.

- FOAG 15, last page, Vacation Allotment for Years of Service between 15-19 years = 34 days
- Provern Awards for top seniority group = 7 weeks per person
- Email to affected senior people saying it was a formula error and they will be contacted to find out which week they'd like to relinquish with an opportunity to have part of the days off under an alternative solution.

If 1 week vacation = 5 days; then 7 weeks vacation = 35 days, right? Are they taking away a full week of vacation that has already been bid on and awarded due to being 1 day over the allotted entitlement? Why not just sub in a GGDO or PD for that single day and keep the vacation schedule as is?

[Pratt X 3]

I’m pretty sure alpa could have done better than a $0.50 hourly pay cut for 2nd year FOs. But hey what do I know.

That's a claim. Mind showing your work?

Math checks out. I too suspect ALPA can do better than a pay cut for FOs, a further degradation of reserve rules if we pick option 1, and a pinky promise we will fight for you in a merger, until we won't, see your latest Friday night bulletin for details.

I don't think ALPA is going to make it rain cash as there is only so much you can pay during a rapid expansion. But I do think through their resources we can negotiate better work rules, get actual legal protection in case a merger happens, and close a lot of loop holes in our current work rules that always tend to favor the operation vs pilots work/life balance.

Looks like they have corrected the pay cut for 2nd year FOs and matched the 2025 CPI amount at $101.50 going forward. So the hourly rate increase is flat at 0.0%. Still some pay cuts rate-wise in the later years of the E2 FO scale but hopefully that is fixed before anyone reaches that.

[braaap Braap]

Sorry but can you expound on this? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Sure thing.

- FOAG 15, last page, Vacation Allotment for Years of Service between 15-19 years = 34 days
- Provern Awards for top seniority group = 7 weeks per person
- Email to affected senior people saying it was a formula error and they will be contacted to find out which week they'd like to relinquish with an opportunity to have part of the days off under an alternative solution.

If 1 week vacation = 5 days; then 7 weeks vacation = 35 days, right? Are they taking away a full week of vacation that has already been bid on and awarded due to being 1 day over the allotted entitlement? Why not just sub in a GGDO or PD for that single day and keep the vacation schedule as is?

We often have a short week of vacation with the allotments that don't divide by 5. As many full weeks of 5 VAC days plus 2 GDOs on either side and the short week to round the award out.

[TPP]

That's a claim. Mind showing your work?

Math checks out. I too suspect ALPA can do better than a pay cut for FOs, a further degradation of reserve rules if we pick option 1, and a pinky promise we will fight for you in a merger, until we won't, see your latest Friday night bulletin for details.

I don't think ALPA is going to make it rain cash as there is only so much you can pay during a rapid expansion. But I do think through their resources we can negotiate better work rules, get actual legal protection in case a merger happens, and close a lot of loop holes in our current work rules that always tend to favor the operation vs pilots work/life balance.

Looks like they have corrected the pay cut for 2nd year FOs and matched the 2015 CPI amount at $101.50 going forward. So the hourly rate increase is flat at 0.0%. Still some pay cuts rate-wise in the later years of the E2 FO scale but hopefully that is fixed before anyone reaches that.

ALPA will fix it for them.

[goingnowherefast]

Math checks out. I too suspect ALPA can do better than a pay cut for FOs, a further degradation of reserve rules if we pick option 1, and a pinky promise we will fight for you in a merger, until we won't, see your latest Friday night bulletin for details.

I don't think ALPA is going to make it rain cash as there is only so much you can pay during a rapid expansion. But I do think through their resources we can negotiate better work rules, get actual legal protection in case a merger happens, and close a lot of loop holes in our current work rules that always tend to favor the operation vs pilots work/life balance.

Looks like they have corrected the pay cut for 2nd year FOs and matched the 2015 CPI amount at $101.50 going forward. So the hourly rate increase is flat at 0.0%. Still some pay cuts rate-wise in the later years of the E2 FO scale but hopefully that is fixed before anyone reaches that.

ALPA will fix it for them.

Is the FOAG always this full of errors? Perhaps it's time for professionally supported contract negotiations. Fewer errors and loopholes to be exploited.