So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

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cdnavater
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by cdnavater »

goingnowherefast wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:05 am Nobody should expect a great schedule when first joining a seniority based company. If they do, that's on them for not understanding how seniority bidding works. Working Christmas or whatever, it's an airline that flies 365 days/yr. Keep one's expectations realistic.

It shouldn't be too much to expect reasonable starting pay and scheduling rules. This isn't an inter-generational issue either. Youngins would like the same opportunities their boomer parents were afforded. Millennials are the first generation that are worse off financially than their parents. Sometimes it comes out as misguided resentment.

The previous contract was a dumpster fire. The new one is still a dumpster, but at least it's not on fire anymore.

Is the grass greener on the other side of the fence? Lots of regional captains making $120,000/yr and supporting 2 or 3 kids. They can't afford the first couple years at AC. The AC pay at year 5 doesn't matter if the bank has their house by year 2.
You’re correct that expecting a reasonable starting wage is not a problem, the problem is the justification for accepting the lower wage and then complaining about it.
How many have said they joined because if they wait they’ll miss the seniority wave but this contract negotiations better fix it or I’m outta here!
How about, don’t accept the job until they give a livable wage, stay where you are until they fix it! The whole time negotiations were ongoing, the classes were mostly full but certainly continuing and how many were doing OT.
Let’s see the mass exodus now or find out what the excuse is!
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3rdWorldClassPilot
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by 3rdWorldClassPilot »

Aerkavo wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:02 am
Flyboy736 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 6:32 am
Crazy some of the logic people put in on here to "justify" their views that the young are the ones who are crazy!
I didn't say they were crazy - just telling you what I've been told. You decide if it's crazy or irrational.
Flyboy736 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 6:32 am
Yeah you are right- Delta, American and United pay the worst because they are the large established carriers. That's why Breeze, Jetblue and Alaska will always have to pay more since they don't have the same career potential to offer /s
I don't know if you've noticed but we're in Canada. In the US market there are many large airlines that must compete with each other for pilots. In Canada this is not the case. AC doesn't pay more for newhires because they don't have to.
Wouldn't waste your time with Aerkavo...he is a proven shill who just regurgitates what he has heard to rationalize selling out new hires.

Every comparison is a non comparable if it shows how preposterous the current situation for young pilots at AC is. Pilots are literally spending their pitiful new hire pay on commuting to/from the most expensive cities in the world while being stuck on reserve with no long call.

Terrible productivity ensures even once you get a block you work max days. Only thing to look forward to is building seniority to escape the chains.

Hopefully your parents live in a major center with a basement so you can bunk out.
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Aerkavo
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by Aerkavo »

3rdWorldClassPilot wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:18 am
Aerkavo wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:02 am
Flyboy736 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 6:32 am
Crazy some of the logic people put in on here to "justify" their views that the young are the ones who are crazy!
I didn't say they were crazy - just telling you what I've been told. You decide if it's crazy or irrational.
Flyboy736 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 6:32 am
Yeah you are right- Delta, American and United pay the worst because they are the large established carriers. That's why Breeze, Jetblue and Alaska will always have to pay more since they don't have the same career potential to offer /s
I don't know if you've noticed but we're in Canada. In the US market there are many large airlines that must compete with each other for pilots. In Canada this is not the case. AC doesn't pay more for newhires because they don't have to.
Wouldn't waste your time with Aerkavo...he is a proven shill who just regurgitates what he has heard to rationalize selling out new hires.

Every comparison is a non comparable if it shows how preposterous the current situation for young pilots at AC is. Pilots are literally spending their pitiful new hire pay on commuting to/from the most expensive cities in the world while being stuck on reserve with no long call.

Terrible productivity ensures even once you get a block you work max days. Only thing to look forward to is building seniority to escape the chains.

Hopefully your parents live in a major center with a basement so you can bunk out.
You guys are so funny;

"AC doesn't pay as much as Flair" - so somebody explains why and then it's "AC doesn't pay as much as Delta" and when that gets explained that person is labeled as a shill or a troll or a company apologist.

Look, I don't agree with things as they are and if you knew me in person the last thing you'd label me as was a company apologist or shill. I'm not justifying, gaslighting or cheerleading for the company, I'm simply explaining the why.
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Last edited by Aerkavo on Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
8895
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by 8895 »

Sounds like a lot of Porter E2 FO’s are thinking about sending in an application. Be interesting to see if AC set themselves up perfectly with more pilots lining up for the low end junior pay.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by goingnowherefast »

You're a junior Porter e2 FO, making barely more than an AC flat pay FO. You want to upgrade in the next 5 years or so. AC captains make a lot more than Porter e2 captains.

It kinda makes sense to cut your losses at Porter and start building seniority at AC.

AC FO flat pay is terrible. The competition is hardly any better.
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tbaylx
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by tbaylx »

8895 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:10 am Sounds like a lot of Porter E2 FO’s are thinking about sending in an application. Be interesting to see if AC set themselves up perfectly with more pilots lining up for the low end junior pay.
There is no reasonable amount of money that Porter could have paid their FOs that would have prevented an under-35 E2 FO from considering AC. That hasn't changed pre or post- AC CBA or Porter benchmark. Those same FOs were applying to AC before the benchmark at Porter. AC is still seen as a more desirable long-term career airline in Canada regardless of flat pay issues.
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aeronauticaldisaster
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by aeronauticaldisaster »

tbaylx wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 2:48 pm
8895 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:10 am Sounds like a lot of Porter E2 FO’s are thinking about sending in an application. Be interesting to see if AC set themselves up perfectly with more pilots lining up for the low end junior pay.
There is no reasonable amount of money that Porter could have paid their FOs that would have prevented an under-35 E2 FO from considering AC. That hasn't changed pre or post- AC CBA or Porter benchmark. Those same FOs were applying to AC before the benchmark at Porter. AC is still seen as a more desirable long-term career airline in Canada regardless of flat pay issues.
You gotta pay your dues!

Ie save the Execs millions with low entry pay so they expand their bonuses
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Flyboy736
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by Flyboy736 »

Aerkavo wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 10:49 am
3rdWorldClassPilot wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:18 am
Aerkavo wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:02 am

I didn't say they were crazy - just telling you what I've been told. You decide if it's crazy or irrational.



I don't know if you've noticed but we're in Canada. In the US market there are many large airlines that must compete with each other for pilots. In Canada this is not the case. AC doesn't pay more for newhires because they don't have to.
Wouldn't waste your time with Aerkavo...he is a proven shill who just regurgitates what he has heard to rationalize selling out new hires.

Every comparison is a non comparable if it shows how preposterous the current situation for young pilots at AC is. Pilots are literally spending their pitiful new hire pay on commuting to/from the most expensive cities in the world while being stuck on reserve with no long call.

Terrible productivity ensures even once you get a block you work max days. Only thing to look forward to is building seniority to escape the chains.

Hopefully your parents live in a major center with a basement so you can bunk out.
You guys are so funny;

"AC doesn't pay as much as Flair" - so somebody explains why and then it's "AC doesn't pay as much as Delta" and when that gets explained that person is labeled as a shill or a troll or a company apologist.

Look, I don't agree with things as they are and if you knew me in person the last thing you'd label me as was a company apologist or shill. I'm not justifying, gaslighting or cheerleading for the company, I'm simply explaining the why.
I never compared AC to Delta because that would be irrelevant - reread it again until you understand.

No country uses the excuse given- give me one example of a country where the smaller national player has to pay more than the legacy carrier because there is less opportunity - Air France, British Airways, Qantas they all follow the US in industry leading pay scales due to their larger economies of scale. You might have misread my answer but the original answer given is simply to fit the narrative of what OP is observing- there is zero evidence to back it up and it's pretty obvious when the old 'we aren't the US' excuse comes up while ignoring the rest of the world as if they don't exist
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BigGreen
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by BigGreen »

Even if Aerokavo's revisionist microeconomics lesson was right, it still doesn't explain how in a unionized environment, a union AGREED to having lower starting pay than Flair
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short bus
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by short bus »

come on man. you have 2k hours, flair pays 100k and AC pays 80k, where you going?
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crystalpizza
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by crystalpizza »

Flyboy736 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:07 pm
Aerkavo wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 10:49 am
3rdWorldClassPilot wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 8:18 am

Wouldn't waste your time with Aerkavo...he is a proven shill who just regurgitates what he has heard to rationalize selling out new hires.

Every comparison is a non comparable if it shows how preposterous the current situation for young pilots at AC is. Pilots are literally spending their pitiful new hire pay on commuting to/from the most expensive cities in the world while being stuck on reserve with no long call.

Terrible productivity ensures even once you get a block you work max days. Only thing to look forward to is building seniority to escape the chains.

Hopefully your parents live in a major center with a basement so you can bunk out.
You guys are so funny;

"AC doesn't pay as much as Flair" - so somebody explains why and then it's "AC doesn't pay as much as Delta" and when that gets explained that person is labeled as a shill or a troll or a company apologist.

Look, I don't agree with things as they are and if you knew me in person the last thing you'd label me as was a company apologist or shill. I'm not justifying, gaslighting or cheerleading for the company, I'm simply explaining the why.
I never compared AC to Delta because that would be irrelevant - reread it again until you understand.

No country uses the excuse given- give me one example of a country where the smaller national player has to pay more than the legacy carrier because there is less opportunity - Air France, British Airways, Qantas they all follow the US in industry leading pay scales due to their larger economies of scale. You might have misread my answer but the original answer given is simply to fit the narrative of what OP is observing- there is zero evidence to back it up and it's pretty obvious when the old 'we aren't the US' excuse comes up while ignoring the rest of the world as if they don't exist
I don't know if those three make US wages.. It's also my understanding that BA and Qantas (I'm sure other foreign flag carriers as well) have some form of status pay where there's a very small or no spread between pay for different aircraft types/NB/WB. Qantas for sure pays their WB pilots way less than similar types at AC and also only has a 4-year pay scale on the 737, which gives them higher "starting pay" than AC but are similar numbers to AC's current Year 9-12 for both CA and FOs on the 37, maybe a little higher. All these factors make comparing the US/Canada to overseas airlines start treading into apples and oranges territory.
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Man_in_the_sky
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by Man_in_the_sky »

short bus wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:40 pm come on man. you have 2k hours, flair pays 100k and AC pays 80k, where you going?
Go with the company that will

- be around in 5 years
- pay greater on the span of your career.
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thepoors
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by thepoors »

BigGreen wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 9:21 pm Even if Aerokavo's revisionist microeconomics lesson was right, it still doesn't explain how in a unionized environment, a union AGREED to having lower starting pay than Flair
This is the big one.

The explanation is that ALPA leadership was a joke, and either corrupt or stupid.
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Last edited by thepoors on Fri Jan 03, 2025 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
8895
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by 8895 »

tbaylx wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 2:48 pm
8895 wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 11:10 am Sounds like a lot of Porter E2 FO’s are thinking about sending in an application. Be interesting to see if AC set themselves up perfectly with more pilots lining up for the low end junior pay.
There is no reasonable amount of money that Porter could have paid their FOs that would have prevented an under-35 E2 FO from considering AC. That hasn't changed pre or post- AC CBA or Porter benchmark. Those same FOs were applying to AC before the benchmark at Porter. AC is still seen as a more desirable long-term career airline in Canada regardless of flat pay issues.
With a lot of the FO’s I chatted with over the last few months I’d beg to differ. A lot were holding off on applying to AC, giving up possible seniority there to see if pd was worth sticking around for.

Obviously a fair chunk of FO’s are gonna have an “AC or bust” mindset for sure, but if you have the mentality they’re all just gonna leave regardless and then proceed to drive them all away you’re simply playing into a self fulfilling prophecy lol
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Aerkavo
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by Aerkavo »

I joined Avcanada way back in the internet dark ages.

It used to be a different place. Well, that was before all the YouTube aviation channels started. Used to be a place where you'd go to get a discussion about the latest incident or industry news - because there was no place else to get it. Gradually other sources for aviation news came along and displaced Avcanada. I was away for so long that I couldn't even remember my original login name!

I re-joined (started a new profile) when the AC contract was being negotiated because I wanted to get a different perspective - somewhat optimistically thought the "anonymous" nature would lead to people posting candidly and honestly.

Imagine my surprise at finding what Avcanada has become. I posted honestly and from-the-heart and got met with instant accusations of being a troll or a shill or a company plant or a union plant or being a greedy, self-centered senior pilot throwing any junior I could grab under the bus! Oh, don't forget the all the posts referring to me as a greedy boomer. Any explanation I give for something is met with accusations of gaslighting. Any background or history I give is met with derision or accusations of lying. Any opinion is met with scorn. It becomes tiresome. Seems a little odd to me too. I used to seek out the old experienced guys and try to learn from them. Much quicker and less painful than making and learning from my own mistakes as I, inevitably, made them. Oh well, so it goes.

Don't worry. I am not looking for any sympathy nor do I need it. Since my reason for re-joining is now past the only reason I've hung around was to see the aftermath of the contract. I see those who were angry and bitter remain angry and bitter - no end in sight apparently.

In the 4-5 months I've been a regular visitor I can see there's not much reason to hang around. Intelligent, thoughtful, sincere posts? Hah, not so much. Yup, I know. Nobody cares, don't let the door hit me in the ass on the way out.

Before I go I'd like to mention there are other aviation forums in Canada. One that I recommend is theairlinewebsite. It's also anonymous but has a community that's friendlier and more respectful (of course maybe some don't want that).

Anyway,
Good luck to all.
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Last edited by Aerkavo on Fri Jan 03, 2025 1:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.
altiplano
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by altiplano »

Poor Aerkavo.

Maybe you don't read yourself very well and the way your statements come across. But you sound pretty pro-company and boomersplain a lot of stuff.

Anyway... Everyone better stop complaining and instead start influencing the guys next to you in the flight deck if you want to do better... Stop bitching and get going. This revisionist complaining is bullshit.

Look ahead. We are a year away from ramping up for the next round and we are going to need everyone on board to go the rest of the way.

Alienating each other hurts us, blaming the MEC hurts us. There was one big screw up and it cost us for sure, but everything else that group did? If it was ACPA and Jalmer could you imagine where we would be? Maybe some of you weren't around much to see ACPA and that shirt-sandwich we ate... That group pulled us out of the sewer we were in and at least got is to our feet. Then the one screw up and didn't walk it back.

It doesn't matter now though, it's behind us, did we learn?

Don't self destruct. Support your MEC. Support each other. That's what it takes.

2027 we get the rest. And it's an easier mission from this launch point.

Kill formula light.
Get the rest of the pay.
Get more ADG.
Get long call.
Get our lifestyle and conditions to there they should be.
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BigGreen
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by BigGreen »

Lol...

You do realize it will be a Conservative Majority government right?

We ain't getting a chance like we just did, ever again.

The fact there hasn't been a full on uprising to this simple fact is shocking.

The lack of Accountability and how steak dinners are still being grilled up on the back of junior pilots is shocking.
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3rdWorldClassPilot
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by 3rdWorldClassPilot »

BigGreen wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 2:34 pm Lol...

You do realize it will be a Conservative Majority government right?

We ain't getting a chance like we just did, ever again.

The fact there hasn't been a full on uprising to this simple fact is shocking.

The lack of Accountability and how steak dinners are still being grilled up on the back of junior pilots is shocking.
It's a lot more than steak dinners. 90 hrs at captain pay plus thousands in monthly per diems (lot more than what the peasants are getting)

The 'get'em next time' crowd is going to be quite disappointed next time
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

The lack of Accountability and how steak dinners are still being grilled up on the back of junior pilots is shocking.
It's a lot more than steak dinners. 90 hrs at captain pay plus thousands in monthly per diems (lot more than what the peasants are getting)
All the changes and union leadership voted in by the junior pilots....irony is dead
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altiplano
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by altiplano »

BigGreen wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 2:34 pm Lol...

You do realize it will be a Conservative Majority government right?

We ain't getting a chance like we just did, ever again.

The fact there hasn't been a full on uprising to this simple fact is shocking.

The lack of Accountability and how steak dinners are still being grilled up on the back of junior pilots is shocking.
So keep looking at your shoes and sulking about it and blaming everyone else around you.

Can't change what happened, can only get ready for the next round.

Junior pilot positions made big leaps in this contract - the biggest. - junior pilots were the biggest voting block by far and drove the bus on this vote... Acting like the contract is poverty is laughable and comparing the pay of a 25 year Captain to a guy that just got here and crying inequity is bullshit.

If you think life is hard, look around you, really it's that the whole country is tanking after 10 years of Liberal government and there aren't too many steak dinners going around for anyone but that's another thread.

And personally, I think the Conservatives are staying out of labour, Poilievre is selling his brand as labour friendly and has the political capital to let it run it's course. Less government is more. He's averse to flip flopping and he was clear on his position last round. No reason to believe that he will trade his integrity for benefit of the corporate lightweights at Air Canada.
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vanislepilot
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by vanislepilot »

I feel like everyone can agree if you’re in your early to mid 20s, unmarried, mortgage free (cuz ur too broke to have a home anyways lol) that the wisest decision is to go to AC hands down.

How many years can you spend as a widebody captain at porter? How come many airlines have come and gone but AC remains constant?
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3rdWorldClassPilot
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by 3rdWorldClassPilot »

altiplano wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 10:14 am
BigGreen wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 2:34 pm Lol...

You do realize it will be a Conservative Majority government right?

We ain't getting a chance like we just did, ever again.

The fact there hasn't been a full on uprising to this simple fact is shocking.

The lack of Accountability and how steak dinners are still being grilled up on the back of junior pilots is shocking.
So keep looking at your shoes and sulking about it and blaming everyone else around you.

Can't change what happened, can only get ready for the next round.

Junior pilot positions made big leaps in this contract - the biggest. - junior pilots were the biggest voting block by far and drove the bus on this vote... Acting like the contract is poverty is laughable and comparing the pay of a 25 year Captain to a guy that just got here and crying inequity is bullshit.

If you think life is hard, look around you, really it's that the whole country is tanking after 10 years of Liberal government and there aren't too many steak dinners going around for anyone but that's another thread.

And personally, I think the Conservatives are staying out of labour, Poilievre is selling his brand as labour friendly and has the political capital to let it run it's course. Less government is more. He's averse to flip flopping and he was clear on his position last round. No reason to believe that he will trade his integrity for benefit of the corporate lightweights at Air Canada.
Lol! Man your posts are usually good but some are just total duds.

Air Canada FO/RPs have the lowest percentage of captain pay by dramatic fashion. Your comment is analogous to gaslighting.

AC year 2 FO: 33.6%
AC year year 6 FO: 57.5%

All US Airlines year 2: 53 - 62%
Year 6: 65 - 68%

Staggering. Junior pilots..."big leaps" :rolleyes:
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stall
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by stall »

Nice thing about Percentage of Captain pay is it removes dollars and currencies.

It literally shows how bad AC & ALPA bone junior pilots.
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by twa22 »

3rdWorldClassPilot wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 4:08 pm
altiplano wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2025 10:14 am
BigGreen wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 2:34 pm Lol...

You do realize it will be a Conservative Majority government right?

We ain't getting a chance like we just did, ever again.

The fact there hasn't been a full on uprising to this simple fact is shocking.

The lack of Accountability and how steak dinners are still being grilled up on the back of junior pilots is shocking.
So keep looking at your shoes and sulking about it and blaming everyone else around you.

Can't change what happened, can only get ready for the next round.

Junior pilot positions made big leaps in this contract - the biggest. - junior pilots were the biggest voting block by far and drove the bus on this vote... Acting like the contract is poverty is laughable and comparing the pay of a 25 year Captain to a guy that just got here and crying inequity is bullshit.

If you think life is hard, look around you, really it's that the whole country is tanking after 10 years of Liberal government and there aren't too many steak dinners going around for anyone but that's another thread.

And personally, I think the Conservatives are staying out of labour, Poilievre is selling his brand as labour friendly and has the political capital to let it run it's course. Less government is more. He's averse to flip flopping and he was clear on his position last round. No reason to believe that he will trade his integrity for benefit of the corporate lightweights at Air Canada.
Lol! Man your posts are usually good but some are just total duds.

Air Canada FO/RPs have the lowest percentage of captain pay by dramatic fashion. Your comment is analogous to gaslighting.

AC year 2 FO: 33.6%
AC year year 6 FO: 57.5%

All US Airlines year 2: 53 - 62%
Year 6: 65 - 68%

Staggering. Junior pilots..."big leaps" :rolleyes:
For fun, I looked at other legacy airlines around the world

Lufthansa

Yr 1 FO Vs Yr 1 Capt: 50%

Top FO Vs Top Capt: 83%

Air France

Yr 1 FO Vs Yr 1 Capt: 43%

Top FO Vs Top Capt: 55%

KLM

Yr 1 FO Vs Yr 1 Capt: 45%

Top FO Vs Top Capt: 75%

British Airways

Yr 1 FO Vs Yr 1 Capt: 75% !!!

Top FO Vs Top Capt: 75%

Aer Lingus

Yr 1 FO Vs Yr 1 Capt: 69%

Top FO Vs Top Capt: 70%

Emirates

No yearly pay scale

FO vs Capt ~ 68%

Etihad

No yearly pay scale

FO vs Capt ~ 75%

Air New Zealand

Yr 1 FO Vs Yr 1 Capt: 64%

Top FO Vs Top Capt: 64%

Jetstar (low cost branch of Qantas)

Level 1 FO 55%

Level 3 FO 65%

The pay scales for European airlines can be found here

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/operat ... reg=Europe

Air New Zealand (post #427) and Jetstar (post #420) here

https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-ze ... on-22.html

Emirates and Etihad directly from their recruitment website


The top FO pay at AC on any fleet vs top Capt pay is around 65%.... and we now know how bad the difference is between Yr 1 FO and Yr 1 capt pay... anywhere from 23% (777) to 33% (A220)


so yea, this whole you'll upgrade, you'll spend most of your career at the top, or whatever else excuse you want to use, is in no way shape or form, justifiable for how little years 1 to 4 make, it just isn't. FOs did not make the biggest gains by any stretch, and to say that the junior FOs won the most is wrong on so many levels...
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BigGreen
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Re: So how actually is at the other side of the fence?

Post by BigGreen »

Just wow...

:shock:

Good post twa22
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