Summer Ground School

[hithere]

Ok then mostly Cygnet(who Jazz is basically obligated to hire even though they don’t need any more FOs) and maybe a couple of ATPLs that they hope they can convince to go left seat quickly

[Inverted2]

I don’t know why they would be hiring any f/o right now. There are tons sitting at home on reserve not working.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I don’t know why they would be hiring any f/o right now. There are tons sitting at home on reserve not working.

Obviously it’s so that more can sit at home on reserve

[hithere]

I don’t know the exact language in the Cygnet contract but as I mentioned earlier , I believe Jazz is actually required to hire the candidates that finish the program. The Cygnet program was started a couple of years ago when Jazz thought “the pilot shortage” meant a shortage of FOs, now they are painfully aware that it’s really more about a shortage of Captains at the Tier 2(Jazz) level

[CaptDukeNukem]

I don’t know the exact language in the Cygnet contract but as I mentioned earlier , I believe Jazz is actually required to hire the candidates that finish the program. The Cygnet program was started a couple of years ago when Jazz thought “the pilot shortage” meant a shortage of FOs, now they are painfully aware that it’s really more about a shortage of Captains at the Tier 2(Jazz) level

Funny, I thought Jazz had 60% flow to ac written into their contract. At least Jazz is holding their end of the stick in this situation. Would look horrendous otherwise

[Me262]

I don’t know the exact language in the Cygnet contract but as I mentioned earlier , I believe Jazz is actually required to hire the candidates that finish the program. The Cygnet program was started a couple of years ago when Jazz thought “the pilot shortage” meant a shortage of FOs, now they are painfully aware that it’s really more about a shortage of Captains at the Tier 2(Jazz) level

Funny, I thought Jazz had 60% flow to ac written into their contract. At least Jazz is holding their end of the stick in this situation. Would look horrendous otherwise

30% since Sep '23

[Inverted2]

I don’t know the exact language in the Cygnet contract but as I mentioned earlier , I believe Jazz is actually required to hire the candidates that finish the program. The Cygnet program was started a couple of years ago when Jazz thought “the pilot shortage” meant a shortage of FOs, now they are painfully aware that it’s really more about a shortage of Captains at the Tier 2(Jazz) level

Funny, I thought Jazz had 60% flow to ac written into their contract. At least Jazz is holding their end of the stick in this situation. Would look horrendous otherwise

Air Canada management uses the written contracts as toilet paper.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I don’t know the exact language in the Cygnet contract but as I mentioned earlier , I believe Jazz is actually required to hire the candidates that finish the program. The Cygnet program was started a couple of years ago when Jazz thought “the pilot shortage” meant a shortage of FOs, now they are painfully aware that it’s really more about a shortage of Captains at the Tier 2(Jazz) level

Funny, I thought Jazz had 60% flow to ac written into their contract. At least Jazz is holding their end of the stick in this situation. Would look horrendous otherwise

30% since Sep '23

Yes. I’m aware.

You’re forgetting the hundreds that got screwed over in 2022

[cdnavater]

I don’t know the exact language in the Cygnet contract but as I mentioned earlier , I believe Jazz is actually required to hire the candidates that finish the program. The Cygnet program was started a couple of years ago when Jazz thought “the pilot shortage” meant a shortage of FOs, now they are painfully aware that it’s really more about a shortage of Captains at the Tier 2(Jazz) level

I’m fairly certain there is no guarantee of a job with this program however imagine a program that costs 130k and then you don’t get a job. It would be a difficult sell for the next applicants, who would pony up in that situation, so they really had to give them jobs.

[Outlaw58]

Yes it's the first class of 2025, not mostly Cygnet, and successful Cygnet applicants get a conditional offer of employment at Jazz when they are selected for the program.

The Application Process
Make sure you are eligible: Canadian citizens or permanent residents with little or no previous flight experience are encouraged to apply. Candidates must posses a post-secondary degree or be able to show equivalent work experience.

Kick off your application by answering a few questions about your candidacy. As you proceed through the process, an assessment (at additional charge) and interviews may be required. If selected, a conditional letter of employment will be provided prior to commencing your training. After enrolling, you will begin your training at Cygnet Aviation Academy LP in Kingston for 18 months, before proceeding to the CAE Toronto Training Center in Mississauga, to complete your CRJ type training in 2 months.

CIBC and Scotiabank provide financing to cover all program costs

https://www.cae.com/flyjazz

Took me 15 seconds to find. Takes you much longer to find highly unreliable info on these boards. Use information found here at your own risk.

58

[Man_in_the_sky]

I don’t know the exact language in the Cygnet contract but as I mentioned earlier , I believe Jazz is actually required to hire the candidates that finish the program. The Cygnet program was started a couple of years ago when Jazz thought “the pilot shortage” meant a shortage of FOs, now they are painfully aware that it’s really more about a shortage of Captains at the Tier 2(Jazz) level

There's no shortage of captain, there's shortage of good working condition.

[Dime]

I don’t know the exact language in the Cygnet contract but as I mentioned earlier , I believe Jazz is actually required to hire the candidates that finish the program. The Cygnet program was started a couple of years ago when Jazz thought “the pilot shortage” meant a shortage of FOs, now they are painfully aware that it’s really more about a shortage of Captains at the Tier 2(Jazz) level

There's no shortage of captain, there's shortage of good working condition.

I’ll add to this. There is currently a shortage in captains because of the history of poor pay and general working conditions in aviation in general. Jazz may be far above average in the contract specifics ( reserve rules etc) but it’s still not anywhere near where it needs to be in terms of pay.

Hoping this changes in the near future and we can have a company with great pay and working conditions.

This is no one’s fault but companies like AC who have undervalued us (pilots) for so long and made it industry standard to put up with it nonsense.

Pay more, attract more pilots, retain more pilots and then we can work on improving other aspects. It’ll never get fixed all at once.

[cdnavater]

Yes it's the first class of 2025, not mostly Cygnet, and successful Cygnet applicants get a conditional offer of employment at Jazz when they are selected for the program.

The Application Process
Make sure you are eligible: Canadian citizens or permanent residents with little or no previous flight experience are encouraged to apply. Candidates must posses a post-secondary degree or be able to show equivalent work experience.

Kick off your application by answering a few questions about your candidacy. As you proceed through the process, an assessment (at additional charge) and interviews may be required. If selected, a conditional letter of employment will be provided prior to commencing your training. After enrolling, you will begin your training at Cygnet Aviation Academy LP in Kingston for 18 months, before proceeding to the CAE Toronto Training Center in Mississauga, to complete your CRJ type training in 2 months.

CIBC and Scotiabank provide financing to cover all program costs

https://www.cae.com/flyjazz

Took me 15 seconds to find. Takes you much longer to find highly unreliable info on these boards. Use information found here at your own risk.

58

Not sure if you directed that to me, a conditional offer means conditions and not a guarantee, they of course could have told the candidates that they are not in need but again, this makes the sales pitch a little more difficult for the next applicants.

[yowflyer23]

I'm surprised they're even hiring FO's right now. There's 20+ reserve lines out of 50ish on my fleet at each base because there is no Captains to be paired with. Whenever somebody upgrades, there's retirements and movement to AC/other airlines that negates what could have been a positive effect on rosters. Some people from my GS are close to losing landing currency because they never fly and may have to go back to sim. There's nothing to pick up in open time. Many of the people sitting on reserve are lower time instructors who aren't upgradable and won't be for ages with how things are going right now. Meanwhile Captains are being worked to the bones with no end in sight. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

[rudder]

I'm surprised they're even hiring FO's right now. There's 20+ reserve lines on my fleet at each base because there is no Captains to be paired with. Whenever somebody upgrades, there's retirements and movement to AC/other airlines that negates what could have been a positive effect on rosters. Some people from my GS are close to losing landing currency because they never fly and may have to go back to sim. There's nothing to pick up in open time. Many of the people sitting on reserve are lower time instructors who aren't upgradable and won't be for ages with how things are going right now. Meanwhile Captains are being worked to the bones with no end in sight. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

Definition of insanity - repeating the same thing over and over yet each time expecting a different result.

AC is making the 220 its single largest fleet type with new orders and converted options. AC is modifying its own commercial plan based on the ability of the Express partners to staff block hours.

Status quo seems untenable, unless it is part of a bigger plan.

[cdnavater]

I'm surprised they're even hiring FO's right now. There's 20+ reserve lines on my fleet at each base because there is no Captains to be paired with. Whenever somebody upgrades, there's retirements and movement to AC/other airlines that negates what could have been a positive effect on rosters. Some people from my GS are close to losing landing currency because they never fly and may have to go back to sim. There's nothing to pick up in open time. Many of the people sitting on reserve are lower time instructors who aren't upgradable and won't be for ages with how things are going right now. Meanwhile Captains are being worked to the bones with no end in sight. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

Definition of insanity - repeating the same thing over and over yet each time expecting a different result.

AC is making the 220 its single largest fleet type with new orders and converted options. AC is modifying its own commercial plan based on the ability of the Express partners to staff block hours.

Status quo seems untenable, unless it is part of a bigger plan.

That is the million dollar question, what is the bigger plan!
I personally believe part of the CIRB process will include common employer status and may lead to some sort of integrated list, ie; bottom of the list in accordance with AC pilots recent CBA. However, no CBA can supersede labour law which would mean unless we as a group agreed to that it would go to arbitration, outcome to be determined.
Caveat, I’m not a labour lawyer so above is how I see things could unfold, obviously others will disagree.
No doubt about one thing, a solution is needed because status quo is not working!

[rudder]

I'm surprised they're even hiring FO's right now. There's 20+ reserve lines on my fleet at each base because there is no Captains to be paired with. Whenever somebody upgrades, there's retirements and movement to AC/other airlines that negates what could have been a positive effect on rosters. Some people from my GS are close to losing landing currency because they never fly and may have to go back to sim. There's nothing to pick up in open time. Many of the people sitting on reserve are lower time instructors who aren't upgradable and won't be for ages with how things are going right now. Meanwhile Captains are being worked to the bones with no end in sight. Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

Definition of insanity - repeating the same thing over and over yet each time expecting a different result.

AC is making the 220 its single largest fleet type with new orders and converted options. AC is modifying its own commercial plan based on the ability of the Express partners to staff block hours.

Status quo seems untenable, unless it is part of a bigger plan.

That is the million dollar question, what is the bigger plan!
I personally believe part of the CIRB process will include common employer status and may lead to some sort of integrated list, ie; bottom of the list in accordance with AC pilots recent CBA. However, no CBA can supersede labour law which would mean unless we as a group agreed to that it would go to arbitration, outcome to be determined.
Caveat, I’m not a labour lawyer so above is how I see things could unfold, obviously others will disagree.
No doubt about one thing, a solution is needed because status quo is not working!

Common employer requires: common ownership AND control. Only then is there the assessment of impact on the distinct bargaining units.

A common employer outcome would therefore have to commence with AC owning Jazz. Currently, it does not.

I have stated previously that a ‘Skyregional’ type arrangement for Jazz might be the eventual outcome. Jazz would be whittled down to an ACMI operator with all other administrative services provided by AC.

Time will tell.

[Flyer98]

A lot of the FOs have an ATPL, but choose not to upgrade in the current situation. Sitting on a “decent” schedule, it’s a hard sell to convince anyone to upgrade for $40/hr. Upgrading means BOTL sitting on reserve getting called every single available day to do single days or two day pairings. Especially if the plan is to go to AC (or somewhere else), what’s the motivation to upgrade?

[cdnavater]

Definition of insanity - repeating the same thing over and over yet each time expecting a different result.

AC is making the 220 its single largest fleet type with new orders and converted options. AC is modifying its own commercial plan based on the ability of the Express partners to staff block hours.

Status quo seems untenable, unless it is part of a bigger plan.

That is the million dollar question, what is the bigger plan!
I personally believe part of the CIRB process will include common employer status and may lead to some sort of integrated list, ie; bottom of the list in accordance with AC pilots recent CBA. However, no CBA can supersede labour law which would mean unless we as a group agreed to that it would go to arbitration, outcome to be determined.
Caveat, I’m not a labour lawyer so above is how I see things could unfold, obviously others will disagree.
No doubt about one thing, a solution is needed because status quo is not working!

Common employer requires: common ownership AND control. Only then is there the assessment of impact on the distinct bargaining units.

A common employer outcome would therefore have to commence with AC owning Jazz. Currently, it does not.

I have stated previously that a ‘Skyregional’ type arrangement for Jazz might be the eventual outcome. Jazz would be whittled down to an ACMI operator with all other administrative services provided by AC.

Time will tell.

Yes, my understanding as well, the control part is definitely there, the ownership part is TBD.
For it to go to the ACMI model aka Sky Regional, that would be a situation where Jazz agrees to such a model which to me seems like a lot less revenue for Chorus.
Under the current model, it’s cost plus and my understanding of the plan at the end of 2025 was to go more of a fee for departure model with Jazz bearing the cost of all day to day operations.
Maybe you are suggesting a combined version of this where the parts of the operation can be outsourced to AC and then a fee for departure based on the reduced costs. This still seems like an arms length “ownership” situation.
I’m not sure if you’re saying for common employer status, ownership must be in fact where I kind of thought a de facto ownership could suffice.
Either way, some of the grumbling I’ve heard has been certain people having asked what other people think of BOTL regarding this situation, trying to be discrete obviously of who is asking who but you can probably read between the lines.

[Inverted2]

Maintenance staffing is reaching a critical level as well and only getting worse. Jazz pay is not competitive in their department either.

[Me262]

What's stopping AC to just build its "regional" fleet of A220's through 2035 and when the contract is up, thank Jazz for its service and bid it farewell? No need for integration, buying, etc etc. Jazz will just be another Pasco that will do its own thing just like it happened with Encore ending the WJ Link with Pasco. Layoffs will come, etc etc.

[PostmasterGeneral]

What's stopping AC to just build its "regional" fleet of A220's through 2035 and when the contract is up, thank Jazz for its service and bid it farewell? No need for integration, buying, etc etc. Jazz will just be another Pasco that will do its own thing just like it happened with Encore ending the WJ Link with Pasco. Layoffs will come, etc etc.

Unfortunately for Jazz employees, that’s the most likely outcome.

[cdnavater]

What's stopping AC to just build its "regional" fleet of A220's through 2035 and when the contract is up, thank Jazz for its service and bid it farewell? No need for integration, buying, etc etc. Jazz will just be another Pasco that will do its own thing just like it happened with Encore ending the WJ Link with Pasco. Layoffs will come, etc etc.

Unfortunately for Jazz employees, that’s the most likely outcome.

I’m not sure if anyone has done the math on this, it’s 10 years away! Lots of changes to come before that, I’m sure of that.

[rudder]

Prior to the sale of RAL, that is where a significant amount of the CHR revenues and almost 50% of free cash flow were coming from.

With the sale of RAL, the balance sheet has been cleaned up and the ownership picture (voting shares) more transparent.

The issue now is cash flow. Less debt to be serviced but margins in the CPA are razor thin and the Voyageur business relatively is not a massive revenue contributor.

It will be interesting to see where CHR is headed. You don’t need that extensive corporate overhead just to manage the remaining two subsidiaries which really only require a COO (I am not including Cygnet as it is barely a blip on the financial radar screen at CHR).

Perhaps EIC will come and kick the tires. Perhaps AC will want to revert to a 1990’s type of Express arrangement (wholly owned subsidiary).

It would be unrealistic to assume things will not change between now and 2035.

[sportingrifle]

There are two things that have happened at Big Red that gives pause for thought and clues to the future. The massive number of A220’s on order. The new routes announced recently don’t need a fraction of the aircraft ordered. And the new AC pilots contract permits domestic Dash 8 and smaller Tier 3 code sharing. If I was a betting man, and I am not, I would say the eventual plan for Jazz looks like a smaller single type CPA supplier that can be staffed with close to its existing wages. A220 picking up the EMB and CRJ routes, Tier 3 picking up skinny unprofitable routes or routes Jazz dropped due to crewing issues. And with the AC hiring winding down over the next 3 years, the flow thru/ crewing issue goes away all on its own. Just my $0.02.