What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

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troisrivieres
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What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by troisrivieres »

I understand Air Canada has around 5,500 pilots.

I'm curious at what seniority point do you reach the threshold of good pay & schedule? And how long will it take to get there??

Reading the threads, it is clear AC pilots can't negotiate any decent new hire pay nor quality of life improvements. It sounds like a ponzi scheme where you need to put some time in and have a bunch of pilots below you before it becomes a decent gig.

I would define good gig as enough money (min $200k), a schedule where you work less than half the month (let's say 12 days), and you can live where you want without the chains of a major center.

The promises of an "early upgrade" seems nefarious if you need suffer the worst of a bad contract.

Merci.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

It sucks having to pay your dues eh?
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30westpirate
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by 30westpirate »

Want weekends off, holidays off, summer vacation, productive day turns, minimum monthly days. Here’s a ballpark, it varies depending on fleet and base.

NB FO - 8+ years of service
WB FO - 16+ years
NB CA - 18+ years
WB CA - 30+ years
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by Blueontop »

mantogasrsrwy wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:47 pm It sucks having to pay your dues eh?
Right.. I didn’t pay my dues for the 10+ years I gave in the industry before having to pay em again when I got to the NHL :roll:
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by FelixGustof »

mantogasrsrwy wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:47 pm It sucks having to pay your dues eh?
So Air Canada pilots are like cadets when they get hired to fly A320s or B737s? After flying for years and graduating from flight program.

I see Quantas pays their cadets nearly $100k to fly a Q400.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by Rooster69 »

Blueontop wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:16 am
mantogasrsrwy wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:47 pm It sucks having to pay your dues eh?
Right.. I didn’t pay my dues for the 10+ years I gave in the industry before having to pay em again when I got to the NHL :roll:

Seniority is not, nor has it been, transferable between companies.

5 years in the OHL or any other junior hockey league doesn’t put you on the top line in the NHL. Matter of fact, on NHl charters the players sit according to status. Top players get their choice of seats before the young whippersnappers.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by cdnavater »

troisrivieres wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:21 pm I understand Air Canada has around 5,500 pilots.

I'm curious at what seniority point do you reach the threshold of good pay & schedule? And how long will it take to get there??

Reading the threads, it is clear AC pilots can't negotiate any decent new hire pay nor quality of life improvements. It sounds like a ponzi scheme where you need to put some time in and have a bunch of pilots below you before it becomes a decent gig.

I would define good gig as enough money (min $200k), a schedule where you work less than half the month (let's say 12 days), and you can live where you want without the chains of a major center.

The promises of an "early upgrade" seems nefarious if you need suffer the worst of a bad contract.

Merci.
There is not a single company in Canada where you can have all of that within 5-10 years, Porter is probably the closest for the pay if you meet the DEC qualifications and of course if they are hiring DEC, right now they are not.
Even Porter would not give you the 12 day schedule in many years, so really it’s comparable to AC NB, you can upgrade fairly quickly but lifestyle will take many years of seniority.
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Last edited by cdnavater on Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
TheStig
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by TheStig »

troisrivieres wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:21 pm

Reading the threads, it is clear AC pilots can't negotiate any decent new hire pay nor quality of life improvements. It sounds like a ponzi scheme where you need to put some time in and have a bunch of pilots below you before it becomes a decent gig.

I would define good gig as enough money (min $200k), a schedule where you work less than half the month (let's say 12 days), and you can live where you want without the chains of a major center.

The promises of an "early upgrade" seems nefarious if you need suffer the worst of a bad contract.

Merci.
Honest question, what other airlines meet your criteria of a good gig? For that matter, what other occupations might be available that would allow you to work less than half the month for $200K outside of one of the countries 3 largest cities?

The airline has a fleet of aircraft that fly about 3-4 million hours a year, who gets what flying ultimately depends on their seniority. Each pilot uses their seniority to determine what pay:lifestyle balance they wish to have. That's not a ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme would be if the top 1500 pilots did 0 flying and collected the pay from the bottom 4000 who did all the flying.

Not sure if you're actually looking for a rough idea of career progression or just trolling based on this being your first post but 30Westpirate is pretty accurate, if not maybe a little conservative. The airline has grown a lot in the last 10 years and many pilots have had better than average career progression because of that. The airline is forecasting 5% growth for the next 3 years, beyond that a pilot could expect their seniority number to increase by about 3% a year based on retirements.
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troisrivieres
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by troisrivieres »

TheStig wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:08 am
troisrivieres wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:21 pm

Reading the threads, it is clear AC pilots can't negotiate any decent new hire pay nor quality of life improvements. It sounds like a ponzi scheme where you need to put some time in and have a bunch of pilots below you before it becomes a decent gig.

I would define good gig as enough money (min $200k), a schedule where you work less than half the month (let's say 12 days), and you can live where you want without the chains of a major center.

The promises of an "early upgrade" seems nefarious if you need suffer the worst of a bad contract.

Merci.
Honest question, what other airlines meet your criteria of a good gig? For that matter, what other occupations might be available that would allow you to work less than half the month for $200K outside of one of the countries 3 largest cities?

The airline has a fleet of aircraft that fly about 3-4 million hours a year, who gets what flying ultimately depends on their seniority. Each pilot uses their seniority to determine what pay:lifestyle balance they wish to have. That's not a ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme would be if the top 1500 pilots did 0 flying and collected the pay from the bottom 4000 who did all the flying.

Not sure if you're actually looking for a rough idea of career progression or just trolling based on this being your first post but 30Westpirate is pretty accurate, if not maybe a little conservative. The airline has grown a lot in the last 10 years and many pilots have had better than average career progression because of that. The airline is forecasting 5% growth for the next 3 years, beyond that a pilot could expect their seniority number to increase by about 3% a year based on retirements.
I am considering where to go to school including the US.

It seems contracts down there don't make being at the bottom of the list so bad. 3rd year pilots can make $300k US. Generous bonuses as well.

Just need to get a 4 yrs degree down there so need to thinking about my plan. I assume given how bad starting pay is at AC, it must be easy to get hired? Then get hired at a US major?
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cdnavater
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by cdnavater »

troisrivieres wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:20 am
TheStig wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:08 am
troisrivieres wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:21 pm

Reading the threads, it is clear AC pilots can't negotiate any decent new hire pay nor quality of life improvements. It sounds like a ponzi scheme where you need to put some time in and have a bunch of pilots below you before it becomes a decent gig.

I would define good gig as enough money (min $200k), a schedule where you work less than half the month (let's say 12 days), and you can live where you want without the chains of a major center.

The promises of an "early upgrade" seems nefarious if you need suffer the worst of a bad contract.

Merci.
Honest question, what other airlines meet your criteria of a good gig? For that matter, what other occupations might be available that would allow you to work less than half the month for $200K outside of one of the countries 3 largest cities?

The airline has a fleet of aircraft that fly about 3-4 million hours a year, who gets what flying ultimately depends on their seniority. Each pilot uses their seniority to determine what pay:lifestyle balance they wish to have. That's not a ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme would be if the top 1500 pilots did 0 flying and collected the pay from the bottom 4000 who did all the flying.

Not sure if you're actually looking for a rough idea of career progression or just trolling based on this being your first post but 30Westpirate is pretty accurate, if not maybe a little conservative. The airline has grown a lot in the last 10 years and many pilots have had better than average career progression because of that. The airline is forecasting 5% growth for the next 3 years, beyond that a pilot could expect their seniority number to increase by about 3% a year based on retirements.
I am considering where to go to school including the US.

It seems contracts down there don't make being at the bottom of the list so bad. 3rd year pilots can make $300k US. Generous bonuses as well.

Just need to get a 4 yrs degree down there so need to thinking about my plan. I assume given how bad starting pay is at AC, it must be easy to get hired? Then get hired at a US major?
Not quite, just because you get a degree from the US, does not automatically mean you can work there. You still need the right to live and work there. In that respect, if you are Canadian, you will have a very hard time getting hired by a US airline. Now, if you plan includes a US degree and a marriage of a US citizen, ok, giver!
That being said, the odds of getting a job with a US major right out of school are very close to zero, I don’t know how much things have improved at the commuter airline or lower level but, 1500 hours to a 705 equivalent in the US will be a slog.
You also come across as a troll or at the very least like an entitled, I want it now generation brat or both!
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

troisrivieres wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:21 pm I understand Air Canada has around 5,500 pilots.

I'm curious at what seniority point do you reach the threshold of good pay & schedule? And how long will it take to get there??

Reading the threads, it is clear AC pilots can't negotiate any decent new hire pay nor quality of life improvements. It sounds like a ponzi scheme where you need to put some time in and have a bunch of pilots below you before it becomes a decent gig.

I would define good gig as enough money (min $200k), a schedule where you work less than half the month (let's say 12 days), and you can live where you want without the chains of a major center.

The promises of an "early upgrade" seems nefarious if you need suffer the worst of a bad contract.

Merci.
WJ you can be working 9-12 days a month once you’re off reserve, and not have to live in YYZ/YVR. However you won’t hit the 200k you mention. Upgrades currently at 11 years and forecast to be 16 years. 10 years to hold 787FO.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by Blueontop »

Rooster69 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:51 am
Blueontop wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:16 am
mantogasrsrwy wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:47 pm It sucks having to pay your dues eh?
Right.. I didn’t pay my dues for the 10+ years I gave in the industry before having to pay em again when I got to the NHL :roll:

Seniority is not, nor has it been, transferable between companies.

5 years in the OHL or any other junior hockey league doesn’t put you on the top line in the NHL. Matter of fact, on NHl charters the players sit according to status. Top players get their choice of seats before the young whippersnappers.
I’m not talking about seniority. I’m talking about taking 6 figure pay cuts to join what should be the best paying gig in Canada. Take a “quick upgrade” out of the equation and it takes 5 years of more “due paying” before you make a respectable wage.

As previously stated quantas pays their cadets 100k to fly a Q..
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by Flyboy736 »

Blueontop wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 12:12 pm
Rooster69 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:51 am
Blueontop wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:16 am

Right.. I didn’t pay my dues for the 10+ years I gave in the industry before having to pay em again when I got to the NHL :roll:

Seniority is not, nor has it been, transferable between companies.

5 years in the OHL or any other junior hockey league doesn’t put you on the top line in the NHL. Matter of fact, on NHl charters the players sit according to status. Top players get their choice of seats before the young whippersnappers.
I’m not talking about seniority. I’m talking about taking 6 figure pay cuts to join what should be the best paying gig in Canada. Take a “quick upgrade” out of the equation and it takes 5 years of more “due paying” before you make a respectable wage.

As previously stated quantas pays their cadets 100k to fly a Q..
To add to this outside of aviation it's quite common to take at least some various forms of seniority with you- a great example is years of service is transferrable based on the amount of hours your worked in a hospital environment for example.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by 3rdWorldClassPilot »

12 days/$200k (they never said anything about weekends or holidays) should be doable if Air Canada pilots had a decent contract.

You can see the Stockholm Syndrome of the group with the "pay your dues" cop out. Just clueless on how it should be.

Get productivity way up (guarantees, 100% Deadhead pay, better pairing construction, vacation pay...coming in 2027 lol) then have percentage of captain pay where they should be for a legacy airline and boom...you got those metrics early on in your career.

It's plausible at Air Canada but some serious gumption is needed from the pilot group and a union leadership willing to go the mile
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by Hysteria »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:02 am
troisrivieres wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:21 pm I understand Air Canada has around 5,500 pilots.

I'm curious at what seniority point do you reach the threshold of good pay & schedule? And how long will it take to get there??

Reading the threads, it is clear AC pilots can't negotiate any decent new hire pay nor quality of life improvements. It sounds like a ponzi scheme where you need to put some time in and have a bunch of pilots below you before it becomes a decent gig.

I would define good gig as enough money (min $200k), a schedule where you work less than half the month (let's say 12 days), and you can live where you want without the chains of a major center.

The promises of an "early upgrade" seems nefarious if you need suffer the worst of a bad contract.

Merci.
WJ you can be working 9-12 days a month once you’re off reserve, and not have to live in YYZ/YVR. However you won’t hit the 200k you mention. Upgrades currently at 11 years and forecast to be 16 years. 10 years to hold 787FO.
Is that forecast of 16 years for YEG/YYC?
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Canadaflyer46
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

Hysteria wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:35 pm
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:02 am
troisrivieres wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:21 pm I understand Air Canada has around 5,500 pilots.

I'm curious at what seniority point do you reach the threshold of good pay & schedule? And how long will it take to get there??

Reading the threads, it is clear AC pilots can't negotiate any decent new hire pay nor quality of life improvements. It sounds like a ponzi scheme where you need to put some time in and have a bunch of pilots below you before it becomes a decent gig.

I would define good gig as enough money (min $200k), a schedule where you work less than half the month (let's say 12 days), and you can live where you want without the chains of a major center.

The promises of an "early upgrade" seems nefarious if you need suffer the worst of a bad contract.

Merci.
WJ you can be working 9-12 days a month once you’re off reserve, and not have to live in YYZ/YVR. However you won’t hit the 200k you mention. Upgrades currently at 11 years and forecast to be 16 years. 10 years to hold 787FO.

Is that forecast of 16 years for YEG/YYC?
It was ALPA’s post merger forecast email for when they’ll hit the seniority % to have a probable upgrade. Didn’t specify base. Was based on if everyone starts retiring at 65 (wishful thinking here) and the fleet size not shrinking.
I’m sure upgrades will slow down at AC but not to that degree.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by MD11 »

Delta pilots get 15/16 GDO's and make bank. No excuse for AC pilots to be treated how they are. Paying your dues doesn't mean being handcuffed to a below average salary and lifestyle stopping most from moving on with life and starting a family or buying a home...
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by phenix »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:49 pm
Hysteria wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:35 pm
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:02 am

WJ you can be working 9-12 days a month once you’re off reserve, and not have to live in YYZ/YVR. However you won’t hit the 200k you mention. Upgrades currently at 11 years and forecast to be 16 years. 10 years to hold 787FO.

Is that forecast of 16 years for YEG/YYC?
It was ALPA’s post merger forecast email for when they’ll hit the seniority % to have a probable upgrade. Didn’t specify base. Was based on if everyone starts retiring at 65 (wishful thinking here) and the fleet size not shrinking.
I’m sure upgrades will slow down at AC but not to that degree.
It was also based on no one being hired unless a pilot reaches 65, which would mean hiring 70 pilots in the next 3 years.
To put things into perspective, between SW and WJ, it’s around 450 pilots who have been hired in the last 3 years.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by Bede »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:49 pm It was ALPA’s post merger forecast email for when they’ll hit the seniority % to have a probable upgrade. Didn’t specify base. Was based on if everyone starts retiring at 65 (wishful thinking here) and the fleet size not shrinking.
I’m sure upgrades will slow down at AC but not to that degree.
No where did it claim to provide any information about possible upgrade time. All it predicted was relative seniority based on retirements and your age. Nothing about growth, attrition, etc. Pilots read into the tool their own doomsday predictions.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by ‘Bob’ »

Rooster69 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:51 am
Blueontop wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:16 am
mantogasrsrwy wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:47 pm It sucks having to pay your dues eh?
Right.. I didn’t pay my dues for the 10+ years I gave in the industry before having to pay em again when I got to the NHL :roll:

Seniority is not, nor has it been, transferable between companies.

5 years in the OHL or any other junior hockey league doesn’t put you on the top line in the NHL. Matter of fact, on NHl charters the players sit according to status. Top players get their choice of seats before the young whippersnappers.
Seniority and pay are two different things.

No way Connor Bédard would have accepted the same contract as the dregs of the 2023 draft. Why should a 705 captain with decades of experience start at the same pay as someone who only started flight school five years before?

At lots of unionized companies, you can negotiate the hell out of your starting wage. You’re not technically a member of the union, yet.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by khedrei »

‘Bob’ wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2025 6:40 pm
Rooster69 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 8:51 am
Blueontop wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:16 am

Right.. I didn’t pay my dues for the 10+ years I gave in the industry before having to pay em again when I got to the NHL :roll:

Seniority is not, nor has it been, transferable between companies.

5 years in the OHL or any other junior hockey league doesn’t put you on the top line in the NHL. Matter of fact, on NHl charters the players sit according to status. Top players get their choice of seats before the young whippersnappers.
Seniority and pay are two different things.

No way Connor Bédard would have accepted the same contract as the dregs of the 2023 draft. Why should a 705 captain with decades of experience start at the same pay as someone who only started flight school five years before?

At lots of unionized companies, you can negotiate the hell out of your starting wage. You’re not technically a member of the union, yet.
Could you let us in on the names of some of these unionized companies?
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pipedream?
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by pipedream? »

It’s pretty common in many other unionized trades that if you switch companies you don’t start at the bottom of the pay scale. Electricians, Elevator technicians to name a few.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by VFS »

The Air Canada is the NHL needs to stop.

American/Delta/United are the NHL.

AC isn’t even the KHL. It’s more like the Southern Professional League. Where those “Pro hockey players” need to use lines of credits or Daddy’s money to survive in the hopes of making decent money one day.
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by newlygrounded »

VFS wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 7:07 am The Air Canada is the NHL needs to stop.

American/Delta/United are the NHL.

AC isn’t even the KHL. It’s more like the Southern Professional League. Where those “Pro hockey players” need to use lines of credits or Daddy’s money to survive in the hopes of making decent money one day.
AC is the community hockey rink that you need to book a 11:30pm slot for 6 months in advance :smt040
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Re: What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

Post by JBI »

Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:49 pm
Hysteria wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:35 pm
Canadaflyer46 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:02 am

WJ you can be working 9-12 days a month once you’re off reserve, and not have to live in YYZ/YVR. However you won’t hit the 200k you mention. Upgrades currently at 11 years and forecast to be 16 years. 10 years to hold 787FO.

Is that forecast of 16 years for YEG/YYC?
It was ALPA’s post merger forecast email for when they’ll hit the seniority % to have a probable upgrade. Didn’t specify base. Was based on if everyone starts retiring at 65 (wishful thinking here) and the fleet size not shrinking.
I’m sure upgrades will slow down at AC but not to that degree.
Upgrade is not forecast to be 16 years. That's an incorrect conclusion from the information provided.

The e-mail was:

Premise: traditionally upgrades occur at around 60% relative seniority
Assumptions: no growth, hiring ONLY to replace retirements, no pilots quitting/getting fired/losing medical/dying
Conclusion: relative seniority before and after merger in graphical format which shows that for most WJ pilots, based on all those unrealsitic assumptions, they would reach 60% relative seniority sooner post merger than without a merger.
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