Pilots thinking of leaving WJ due to 16 year upgrades

[munzil]

they are just bored guys with no hobbies.

All of them? Maybe flying is their hobby. Remember when you enjoyed flying so much you would pay to do it? Not everyone has lost that.

[hithere]

So maybe then go fly general aviation- like when you “enjoyed flying so much you’d pay to do it?” If you don’t have the money to buy a Cessna 150 outright then become a fractional owner?

[munzil]

So maybe then go fly general aviation- like when you “enjoyed flying so much you’d pay to do it?” If you don’t have the money to buy a Cessna 150 outright then become a fractional owner?

I tell you what, I don't work for WestJet, I'm 20 years away from retirement. Go tell the pilots who are your target face to face this instead of harping on some website to a whole lot of strangers. I obviously can't solve your problem

Yeah I thought not

[co-joe]

...
I also agree, getting rid of the AR program is extremely unlikely and it would be met with a civil rights suit

For comparison, Flair got rid of our pilots over 65 allowance with an LOU that the previous MEC chair just /rubber stamped without getting anything for. It grandfathers pilots over 65 hired before a certain date, any newer hires have to retire on their 65th birthday. I would hope if your ALPA were to agree to such an LOU that you at least get something in return for it...

[aceemployment]

For those that are in the duldrums of merged airline and concerned about upgrades, we are looking for qualified pilots for an assignment overseas. It is for a commuting position as a First Officer with Nippon Cargo Airlines (Japan). The commuting airports are LAX & ORD. The remuneration package is in USD which for the Canadian Dollar, has been big plus.

Details are posted here:

https://acempl.com/job-opportunities.php

I took a LOA many years ago during the Canadian / Air Canada merger and it was probably the best career choice I made. Like every ariline, there are the good and the bad points, but for the most part, it has been a positive experience.

I am not privy to the rules and regulations regarding pilot LOA at WestJet, but it could be a viable option for some.

We encourage all qualified pilots to apply.

ACE employment.

There is also a post available in the Aviation Job ads (free) section of the main forum index:

viewforum.php?f=7

[daedalusx]

For those that are in the duldrums of merged airline and concerned about upgrades, we are looking for qualified pilots for an assignment overseas. It is for a commuting position as a First Officer with Nippon Cargo Airlines (Japan). The commuting airports are LAX & ORD. The remuneration package is in USD which for the Canadian Dollar, has been big plus.

Details are posted here:

https://acempl.com/job-opportunities.php

I took a LOA many years ago during the Canadian / Air Canada merger and it was probably the best career choice I made. Like every ariline, there are the good and the bad points, but for the most part, it has been a positive experience.

I am not privy to the rules and regulations regarding pilot LOA at WestJet, but it could be a viable option for some.

We encourage all qualified pilots to apply.

ACE employment.

There is also a post available in the Aviation Job ads (free) section of the main forum index:

viewforum.php?f=7

Make it 14/14 instead of 20/10 and throw in confirmed J class commute and you have a deal

[eyebrow737]

For those that are in the duldrums of merged airline and concerned about upgrades, we are looking for qualified pilots for an assignment overseas. It is for a commuting position as a First Officer with Nippon Cargo Airlines (Japan). The commuting airports are LAX & ORD. The remuneration package is in USD which for the Canadian Dollar, has been big plus.

Details are posted here:

https://acempl.com/job-opportunities.php

I took a LOA many years ago during the Canadian / Air Canada merger and it was probably the best career choice I made. Like every ariline, there are the good and the bad points, but for the most part, it has been a positive experience.

I am not privy to the rules and regulations regarding pilot LOA at WestJet, but it could be a viable option for some.

We encourage all qualified pilots to apply.

ACE employment.

There is also a post available in the Aviation Job ads (free) section of the main forum index:

viewforum.php?f=7

Thanks for the invite. But 10 days off per month? That's a lotta time away from the family. Practically regional flying days away

[daedalusx]

Thanks for the invite. But 10 days off per month? That's a lotta time away from the family. Practically regional flying days away

Weak duty regs (that can be thrown out if operational req): eg NRT-LAX scheduled 2 man ops. Very short right now due guys leaving (both seats). In last week captain did NRT to AMS, then 8 hours rest, and back AMS to NRT. Extreme fatige is the way it is: night flight on your body clock followed by day flight then another night flight

Yeah I think I’ll pass. Zombie lifestyle isn’t for me.
https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-e ... nca-2.html

[aceemployment]

[/quote]

Make it 14/14 instead of 20/10 and throw in confirmed J class commute and you have a deal
[/quote]

The guaranteed 10 days off + 2 commuting days is a contractual obligation. Normally we get more than that.

There is an option to group your days off into 1 lump sum or split the days off. On a normal schedule, one can work 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off (+/- 2~4 days). Or some choose to work 1 week on / 1 week off (+/- 1~3 days). You do get 2 comuting days and as a commuter from Canada, LAX & ORD are within 3-5 hours. This means that most days that you finish duty, you can be home in time for lunch, on a duty day.

You do get a commuting allowance and one can choose to buy a J-class ticket. Some do, most just buy a regular economy ticket.

On most vacation months, you can expect to have off that entire month off.

Contract flying is not for everyone. If you expecting to work like an long-haul pilot at a legacy airline with only 7-10 days of work / month, you are not going to get that any contract job overseas.

Lots have changed since the pandemic and with the regularoty FRM in place, it has been more "bearable" than years past.

Hope that clears the air.

[fish4life]

Clearly the overseas companies have a lonngggggg way to go to catch up to North America. Any WJ / AC pilot past year 3 is going to crush this contract in pay for that many days of work per month.

I hate to say it but 7 years ago that was a decent deal but the market has been reset and overseas carriers better figure it out.

[Hangry]

I hear being in the right seat in Asia is just the best.

[CaptDukeNukem]

For those that are in the duldrums of merged airline and concerned about upgrades, we are looking for qualified pilots for an assignment overseas. It is for a commuting position as a First Officer with Nippon Cargo Airlines (Japan). The commuting airports are LAX & ORD. The remuneration package is in USD which for the Canadian Dollar, has been big plus.

Details are posted here:

https://acempl.com/job-opportunities.php

I took a LOA many years ago during the Canadian / Air Canada merger and it was probably the best career choice I made. Like every ariline, there are the good and the bad points, but for the most part, it has been a positive experience.

I am not privy to the rules and regulations regarding pilot LOA at WestJet, but it could be a viable option for some.

We encourage all qualified pilots to apply.

ACE employment.

There is also a post available in the Aviation Job ads (free) section of the main forum index:

viewforum.php?f=7

Hard pass. Thanks.

[JBI]

For those that are in the duldrums of merged airline and concerned about upgrades, we are looking for qualified pilots for an assignment overseas. It is for a commuting position as a First Officer with Nippon Cargo Airlines (Japan). The commuting airports are LAX & ORD. The remuneration package is in USD which for the Canadian Dollar, has been big plus.

Details are posted here:

https://acempl.com/job-opportunities.php

I took a LOA many years ago during the Canadian / Air Canada merger and it was probably the best career choice I made. Like every ariline, there are the good and the bad points, but for the most part, it has been a positive experience.

I am not privy to the rules and regulations regarding pilot LOA at WestJet, but it could be a viable option for some.

We encourage all qualified pilots to apply.

ACE employment.

There is also a post available in the Aviation Job ads (free) section of the main forum index:

viewforum.php?f=7

As much as I'm sure some of us would love the chance to fly a 747-8, I think the chances of a WJ pilot getting an LOA at WJ to go fly for an overseas carrier are about zero; one would have to leave their employment. And the realty is that even on good months, a commuting contract with only 10+2 guaranteed days off isn't going to sway too many to leave permanent employment in Canada.

[aceemployment]

For those that are in the duldrums of merged airline and concerned about upgrades, we are looking for qualified pilots for an assignment overseas. It is for a commuting position as a First Officer with Nippon Cargo Airlines (Japan). The commuting airports are LAX & ORD. The remuneration package is in USD which for the Canadian Dollar, has been big plus.

Details are posted here:

https://acempl.com/job-opportunities.php

I took a LOA many years ago during the Canadian / Air Canada merger and it was probably the best career choice I made. Like every ariline, there are the good and the bad points, but for the most part, it has been a positive experience.

I am not privy to the rules and regulations regarding pilot LOA at WestJet, but it could be a viable option for some.

We encourage all qualified pilots to apply.

ACE employment.

There is also a post available in the Aviation Job ads (free) section of the main forum index:

viewforum.php?f=7

As much as I'm sure some of us would love the chance to fly a 747-8, I think the chances of a WJ pilot getting an LOA at WJ to go fly for an overseas carrier are about zero; one would have to leave their employment. And the realty is that even on good months, a commuting contract with only 10+2 guaranteed days off isn't going to sway too many to leave permanent employment in Canada.

Flying overseas is not for everyone. But for some, it has been a great opportunity.

We are not expecting any applications from captains or senior first officers. But for some up and coming FO’s that are looking at a 16 year upgrade at WJ (according to the thread's title), then this assignment may be an option. The LOA that I mentioned was something avaiable ages ago. It was merely a suggestion.

We recently had a 34 year old upgrade to captain on the B747-8. Something that is almost unheard of in Canada.

The 10+2 guaranteed days off is a contractual obligation. The Japanese have made a conscientious effort to improve the work / life balance. Lately it has been 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off, or 1 week on / 1 week off. You get a hotel room 1 night before duty and after duty, so no more “crash pads”. You also get per diems allocated before and after duty.

We have a “seniority list” but that is just for vacation awards and upgrades. For days off, the schedulers are very accommodating. I can only remember a handful of times when they asked me to change my days off, and it was only by 1-2 days. Basically, you get what you bid for. I’ve never missed a birthday, anniversary, Canadian thanksgiving, since the whole time I have been here. This year, I worked 1 Xmas in the past 3 years.

We do have Xmas list and typically, we work 1 Xmas in 3-4 years, including junior AND senior pilots.

The salary is NET, and with the strong USD over the past decade, it has been a huge plus.

[MaxAuto]

It is not going take 16 years for the retirement flood gates to open up. Don't sell your seniority shares unless you're older and junior. If you're young, stay put.

[Canadaflyer46]

It is not going take 16 years for the retirement flood gates to open up. Don't sell your seniority shares unless you're older and junior. If you're young, stay put.

Retirement? What’s that? The CEO said recently he has no plans to mandate retirement. They’d rather piss away millions on the AR program to avoid upsetting people.
I’d say it’s best for people to plan based on the current situation and also hope for the best. It was 11 years before the merger, an extra 500 pilots has easily pushed that past 16.

[safetyfirst123]

Retirement? What’s that? The CEO said recently he has no plans to mandate retirement. They’d rather piss away millions on the AR program to avoid upsetting people.
I’d say it’s best for people to plan based on the current situation and also hope for the best. It was 11 years before the merger, an extra 500 pilots has easily pushed that past 16.

The merger brought 500 pilots from Sunwing but no flying? Damn that sucks. Maybe it will be over 20 years for upgrades.

[nohojob]

The only way to upgrade at WestJet is to work past 65 because it takes so long, up to 40 years.

[pelmet]

I thought they were upgrading a few guys in YYZ this year.

[Canadaflyer46]

I thought they were upgrading a few guys in YYZ this year.

Hasn’t been a YYZ upgrade for a long time, I’d say a year. There are talks of the November post-merger rebid being a reduction bid for YYZ, although that is all speculation right now as WJ is keeping their plans very hush hush.

[Red1]

Plans are hush, hush as the powers that be haven't figured out what everything looks like post merge.

[daedalusx]

Well to be fair, it’s WJ ALPA that forced the one-AOC and integration on the last CA. Sunwing pilots would have been more than happy to have been kept a separated entity with their own contract with a tail limit/no growth. You can’t force the integration and then be mad about stagnation… unless you were promised an unrealistic merger list outcome by your own union.

[safetyfirst123]

Well to be fair, it’s WJ ALPA that forced the one-AOC and integration on the last CA. Sunwing pilots would have been more than happy to have been kept a separated entity with their own contract with a tail limit/no growth. You can’t force the integration and then be mad about stagnation… unless you were promised an unrealistic merger list outcome by your own union.

That's exactly right. It would have been interesting to see if Onex wanted to keep both airlines separate. There are ways to protect flying and pay without forcing integration. Tail limit, no growth as stated, same contract, just like rouge right now. No bumping, but you can switch as positions become available. Then Onex could have had a fleet of 189 seat 737's for leisure/LCC flying and a separate mainline fleet.

[737Drver]

That Nippon Cargo airlines ad is just sad even with the upgrade timelines at WJ with its shit FO pay.

Hopefully everyone is young in this industry cause I don't know how you raise kids with no money. Basically FA lifestyle for junior pilots.

[JBI]

Well to be fair, it’s WJ ALPA that forced the one-AOC and integration on the last CA. Sunwing pilots would have been more than happy to have been kept a separated entity with their own contract with a tail limit/no growth. You can’t force the integration and then be mad about stagnation… unless you were promised an unrealistic merger list outcome by your own union.

That's exactly right. It would have been interesting to see if Onex wanted to keep both airlines separate. There are ways to protect flying and pay without forcing integration. Tail limit, no growth as stated, same contract, just like rouge right now. No bumping, but you can switch as positions become available. Then Onex could have had a fleet of 189 seat 737's for leisure/LCC flying and a separate mainline fleet.

This isn't quite correct. While the contents of LOU 20 include the steps that the Flight Operations will be joined, the key in the LOU is that the terms of the WJ Collective Agreement will apply when the companies are joined. My unofficial understanding is that the plan was to merge the operations, however, the terms of the agreement and how the two collective agreements are combined was the outstanding issue.

I've previously posted that while, in theory, this may seem like a good idea on the surface, having two separate pilot groups owned by the same company, especially WestJet/Onex, is a really bad idea for ALL pilots. To start, one of the publicly stated goals of the merger/acquisition is Onex's belief that the Sunwing flying can be operated more efficiently. Next, in the LOU there was a limit on Sunwing flying and the company has ALREADY breached it! Just like during COVID where the Company agreed they wouldn't operate more than something like 6 Swoop tails and on like day one there were 8 Swoop tails flying

Pilot groups are stronger together. If the company has a chance to pit the pilot groups against each other they will.